| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 174 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have intentionally not looked this up in any Bible commentaries yet, but I am wondering how there can be, according to these verses, a temple in heaven at this time with a literal "ark of his covenant"? I don't believe in an 1844 Day of Atonement. What do you make of this?
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 65 Registered: 1-2004  |
Catholics like to think that the next verses after the one about the Ark of the Covenant are important context; RE 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. RE 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: RE 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Jesus would be the Covenant; his people, Israel then later the church, produced or represent a woman who gave Jesus a human body. So in a sense, Mary would be the ark of the covenant. Just think if no human would have been willing to be the bearer of God in the flesh. That's mostly the reason for the word "theotokos" that was used in the 3rd-4th centuries. It means "God bearer". Without a theotokos God would have had to invent a different way to become incarnate. The physical ark contained physical tablets of stone which were called the covenant. But if as the early Christians taught, Jesus Himself is the new covenant, then if there was something we can relate to which "contained" the covenant, it would be logical to view that something as the theotokos who gave Jesus His human flesh. Jeremiah | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2005 |
Where does this text then fit into the picture that says "the curtain, that is, his body"? And how is it that "Mary would be the ark of the covenant"?
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 66 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well I don't know, but I figure since I'm discussing what the historical view of things is, let's see what St Chrysostom says; ****** [1.] "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He hath consecrated for us." Having shown the difference of the High Priest, and of the sacrifices, and of the tabernacle, and of the Covenant, and of the promise, and that the difference is great, since those are temporal, but these eternal, those "near to vanishing away," these permanent, those powerless, these perfect, those figures, these reality. for (he says) "not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an endless life." (c. vii. 16.) And "Thou art a Priest for ever." (c. v. 6.) Behold the continuance of the Priest. And concerning the Covenant, That (he says) is old (for "that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"-c. viii. 13), but this is new; and has remission of sins, while that [has] nothing of the kind: for (he says) "the Law made nothing perfect." (c. vii. 19.) And again, "sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not." (c. x. 5.) That is made with hands, while this is "not made with hands" (c. ix. 11): that "has the blood of goats" (c. ix. 12), this of the Lord; that has the Priest "standing," this "sitting." Since therefore all those are inferior and these greater, therefore he says, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness." [2.] "Boldness": from whence? As sins (he means) produce shame, so the having all things forgiven us, and being made fellow-heirs, and enjoying so great Love, [produces] boldness. "For the entrance into the holiest." What does he mean here by "entrance"? Heaven, and the access to spiritual things. "Which he hath inaugurated," that is, which He prepared, and which He began; for the beginning of using is thenceforth called the inaugurating; which He prepared (he means) and by which He Himself passed. "A new and living way." Here He expresses "the full assurance of hope." "New," he says. He is anxious to show that we have all things greater; since now the gates of Heaven have been opened, which was not done even for Abraham. "A new and living way," he says, for the first was a way of death, leading to Hades, but this of life. And yet he did not say, "of life," but called it "living," (the ordinances, that is,) that which abideth. "Through the veil" (he says) "of His flesh." For this flesh first cut that way, by this He inaugurated it [the way] by which He walked. And with good reason did he call [the flesh] "a veil." For when it was lifted up on high, then the things in heaven appeared. "Let us draw near" (he says) "with a true heart." To what should we "draw near"? To the holy things, the faith, the spiritual service. "With a true heart, in full assurance of faith," since nothing is seen; neither the priest hence-forward, nor the sacrifice, nor the altar. And yet neither was that priest visible, but stood within, and they all without, the whole people. But here not only has this taken place, that the priest has entered into the holy of holies, but that we also enter in. Therefore he says,"in full assurance of faith." For it is possible for the doubter to believe in one way, as there are even now many who say, that of some there is a resurrection and of others not. But this is not faith. "In full assurance of faith" (he says); for we ought to believe as concerning things that we see, nay, even much more; for "here" it is possible to be deceived in the things that are seen, but there not: "here" we trust to the senses, but there to the Spirit. "Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience." He shows that not faith only, but a virtuous life also is required, and the consciousness to ourselves of nothing evil. Since the holy of holies does not receive "with full assurance" those who are not thus disposed. For they are holy, and the holy of holies; but here no profaneperson enters. They were sprinkled as to the body, we as to the conscience, so that we may even now be sprinkled over with virtue itself. "And having our body washed with pure water." Here he speaks of the Washing, which no longer cleanses the bodies, but the soul. "For He is faithful that promised." "That promised" what? That we are to depart thither and enter into the kingdom. Be then in nothing over-curious, nor demand reasonings. Our [religion] needs faith. ****** The above sounds pretty typical of the early beliefs about things. You have to remember that their language and culture were not the same as ours. St Chrysostom probably was reading and preaching in the Greek, too. He was bishop of Antioch and then Constantinople, if I remember correctly. Possibly Mary is looked at as an "Ark of the Covenant" in more a historical sense, since at one time she did carry Jesus literally and physically. This mention of the "woman" in Revelation 12 may be kind of a historical overview of the Church and/or Mary. Jeremiah |
