| Author | Message | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006 |
On sanctification? And/or links to any old threads, where you might have discussed it in the past? (I realize that it might be tedious, when newbies come along and bring up subjects already discussed in depth) I truly respect and learn from all of your scriptural insights of truth, experiences and wisdom on this forum. Sometimes, I have craved them. I certainly have come here for the comfort and a haven of scripture and the fruits of the Spirit in you on stressful days. (See how you all do God's work and don't even know it!) I am not troubled on the issue of sanctification (I know I'm saved and growing up in Christ the rest of my life), but I would like to learn from and what others, specifically, Believing ex-SDA's, have learned and unlearned.(Perhaps, this is an area I need further SDA-filter unlearning on. I don't think so, but I am curious after reading something, tonight) I am purposely not posting any verses about it, desiring for the Holy Spirit to bring whatever verses to any of you, which he wants brought out. Tonight, I ran across this definition below: SANCTIFICATION: Greek; 'Hagiasmos'; consecration, purification, holiness, being set apart for holy purposes. The word 'consecration' struck and remained with me the most. I know I will ponder it more. Something consecrated is sacred, is it not? That is most stunning and humbling, if so. More than I can process about human, fallible me, even being Christ-covered. Awesome, if I am getting it right. Not that I mean sacred like God. Guess, I'm back-checking myself with you.  Thank you in advance for anything you are lead to write. Cathy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 433 Registered: 7-2004  |
Cathy, for me the hardest part is keeping sanctification distinguished and apart from salvation. One of the hallmark of cults, SDAism included, is teaching that we are saved through being sanctified. We could probably generate much discussion on the topic based on whether people here believe that sanctification is the result of our cooperative effort with God or whether it is solely God's work in us. My position is strongly the latter, but even then I can accept that the person focused on cooperating with God can only do so because of God's work in them. The biggest question that I find a struggle is explaining why, if it is God's power that is sanctifying us, do we still struggle with sin. It makes sense to me emotionally, but I can't always express it well. I found this explanation that comes close to my sense of the issue.
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| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2005  |
I learned years ago in a Full-Gospel church that justification is imputed righteousness and sanctification is imparted righteousness. Imputed means laid to my account, or attributed to me. Imparted means conveyed or granted to me, as if from a store of righteousness. Either way, it's all from God. Justification is an event that takes place when we first receive Christ into our hearts and place him on the throne of our hearts. We're "justified", "just as if I'd" never sinned. Sanctification is a process that goes on an on until we are translated into heaven. I wrote a little poem that portrays the concept for me: Anything good you see in me Is something Jesus Christ has done. Anything bad you see in me Is something He's still working on. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1343 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric_b Hi again. Good to meet both you and Raven last weekend. That link is interesting you provided above. I have enjoyed Todd Wilken's(I think he runs that web site) participation on the White Horse Inn at www.whitehorseinn.org if you have been following that Romans series. The issue of monergistic regeneration is a concept I have come to terms with, but I am not sure about monergistic sanctification. I read a previous link you posted on this topic. It is hard for me to separate legitimate human effort and our taking responsibility for our behavior, and somehow saying it is only God doing it. It is God working in us, but there is a definite responsibility on our part. I do see the author's point, and it does seem reasonable. Since we are on the subject of Lutheran theology, and since we had a discussion awhile back on eternal security, I was very interested to find in J.I. Packer's "Knowing God" while reading it this AM that he clearly said that Luther himself believed in the Preservation of the Saints doctrine, (And I just found some recent quotes of his in "Bondage of the Will" confirming this), but that Lutherans don't officially hold to the preservation doctrine. I didn't know that before, so I wonder if this is what you understand. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 434 Registered: 7-2004 |
Most Lutheran theologians I read promote preservation of the saints. Particularly as opposed to the idea of perserverence of the saints. To the Lutherans I have read this is an important distinction as well. In thinking about how we cooperate, if sanctification is based on our joint effort with God, do we have reason to boast? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3436 Registered: 12-2003  |
The issue of sanctification and sin in a believer's life caused me confusion until we studied Romans 7 in FAF. It took us weeks to get through the chapter, but I think it finally makes some sense to me. I'll try to summarize what I learned: When we are born again, we die to sinóthat is, our inherently dead spirits come to life in Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Our spirits are connected to God. For the first time, we actually have God's power to resist sin. Here's the catch: we are still in our MORTAL FLESH. Our minds, although "being renewed" by learning to live by the Spirit, are still shaped by our original deadness and by our years of sinful habits. We really do have death in our flesh. Our spirits and our volition know Jesus and want to live by His grace; our "flesh" still pulls us toward sin. Romans 7:21-25 perfectly describe this condition. Our inner beings delight in "God's law" to which we come alive to when we are born again. the "members of our body", though, have "another law" at work in them, "waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members." IOW, when we are born again, a singular miracle occurs: the God of the Universe inhabits my mortal flesh which is STILL SINFUL. My spirit is now delivered from sinóI'm no longer dead; I'm alive in Christ. My body, however, is still doomed to death and prone to sin. Paul ends chapter 7 by expressing this dilemma articulately: "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in theh sinful nature a slagve to the law of sin." Romans 8:1-17 gives the solution to this problem: in verse 5 Paul says, "Those who live accorfding to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." Then, in verse 12, the rubber meets the road: "Therefore, brothers, we have an obligationóbut it is not to the sinful nature to live according to it. For if you live according to the siunful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live..." Here's the paradox. When we are born again, we still must choose to obey Jesusóbut now we literally choose to yield to the Holy Spirit instead of observing a command and trying to discipline ourselves to overcome sin. Because we are born again, we have the mind of Christ in us; we have the Holy Spirit's power and intercession at work in us. Yet we can choose to ignore Him and give in to our temptations, or we can submit our temptations to Him and allow Him to change our hearts. In our old way of living, before being born again, our choices were to "give in" to temptation or to suck it up and exercise self-discipline. Self-discipline sometimes workedóbut it never changed our desires. Now, our choice is between self-indulgence or offering our temptations and our bodies to God as sacrifices in real time. When we choose to offer ourselves to Him, He actually gives us His power and His assurance of His presence and His peace. When we were self-disciplining without offering ourselves and our desires to Him, we might experience "victory", but it was never with a sense of freedom and peace. It was always a brittle success with a sense of pride and accomplishment. There is mystery hereómuch like the mystery of Jesus being 100% God and 100% human, and the Bible being both a human "work" and a completely divine work. In our sanctification, the Holy Spirit is at work in us, changing our hearts, making it possible for us to offer our desires and temptations to Him and to ask for His strength and insight. And we must chooseómoment by momentówhether we will give in to our feelings of overwhelm, discouragement, fear, jealousy, angeróor whether we will instead offer ourselves and choose to praise God, thanking Him for everything, even the things we cannot yet see which He is accomplishing in and through us. As we learn to offer ourselves and to live in thanksgiving and trust, we will gradually discover that certain chronic temptations and annoyances are less and less problematic. Even more, we will begin to see that we increasingly stay rooted in truth and reality instead of in our fear and warped understanding. Increasingly we live with the mind of Christ. So, yesósanctification is all of God. And yesówe must choose to offer ouselves and to live in thanksgiving, not ignoring our problems but no longer allowing them to consume us. Instead, we will let Jesus fill our attention, and in offering Him our feelings and self-protective and indulgent impulses, we will begin to experience His power and peace in those places. It is not a "joint effort"; Our salvation is 100% secure. Our growth in Jesus, however, does require us to make decisionsónot decisions to "fix" our behavior, but decisions to give to Jesus the things we cling to. Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-1999 |
I understood the sanctification/sin issue when a minister used the following illustration: Before we believe in Christ, we have a body and a soul (a one room house). We can only make decisions based on the information that is contained inside the one room house (information based on human standards). Once we hear the gospel message and believe it we receive a spirit (we have a two room house). This second room is where Christ dwells. We now have a choice as to what standard we are going to live by. We are no longer a slave to sin (before we had no choice, we only had human standards because we only had one room to live in). As long as we keep the door open to this second room God's standards rule our life. But we still have the God given freedom to choose. We can choose to slam that door shut at any time. We can (even as a child of God) close ourself off from his standards. We do this every time we sin. It doesn't matter if its a big sin or a little sin (only human standards classify sins as big and little) we shut the door. The door is easily re-opened--name your sin to God. It's that easy! This was a hard concept for me to accept for a while but we are either 100% spiritual or 100% carnal. There is no such thing as just being a little carnal or just being a little spiritual. There is no such thing as 80% spiritual and 20% carnal and visa versa. It's an either/or situation. The question is: As a Christian, are you spending most of your time with the door open or the door closed? | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-1999 |
P.S. We are saved because WE HAVE A TWO ROOM HOUSE. The second room IS our security in Christ!!! The second room can not be destroyed--it remains forever (even with the door closed). | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 380 Registered: 7-2004  |
Thanks for the P.S., Lori, and great analogy! I was a little concerned without it, because it sounded a lot like the SDA belief that every sin, big or small, puts you no longer "in Christ" and if you're not "in Christ" you're not saved. The fact is, regardless of how wide open the door is, to use your analogy, there are always myriads of ways every day that every Christian isn't fully surrendered to Christ. Without your P.S., there could be endless debates about how open the door needs to be, or how often the door needs to stay open to be sufficient for salvation. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you for all of your input. I agree with everything, put one way or another. Ric_b, I have been enriched from issuesetc.org, as well, although I haven't gone there in the past year much. You've reminded me of them and I will return. (so much good stuff on the Net, one forgets it all!) Having studied Lutheran theology before and while becoming one, I agree with Luther on what I have read, but I have more to read; he was extensive (to say the least!) as well as profound. I was convinced on his theology about the bondage of the will. Christ does it all, it's all about him, never about me. All glory to him. In the past year, I have been emmersed in the beauty of 'Christ in us' and that has much/all to do with sanctification, imho. Christ in us, in spite of us, when we do not even realize it, when we don't even want to, sometimes, but we conform, more and more to his Spirit and fruits; He works in us, through us, for us, continually. I pray for the fruits of the Spirit because I know that I do not always manifest them, especially, patientce. And I know he will finish what he began within me and my children, convicting us, when we need to see something to change in ourselves by his power or make amends and forgiveness by his Spriit's fruits about something. It is so nice not to have to be perfect and not to expect others to be perfect. We can just be ourselves and be loved for who we are and where we are at in Jesus, trusting his guidance, scripture and power. Cathy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1348 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy2, Welcome to FAF. I agree with you on Luther's "Bondage of the Will", as I am currently re-reading it. This book is a classic, and gives great insights into the very basic difference between the Reformers view of Salvation and Rome's view--as well as SDA and a lot of evangelicals view. What a great mind Luther had! I agree with Raven on being careful not to bring works back in via the back door. John Wesley did this with his doctrine of perfectionism that is mirrored in EGW's views of works salvation. But that is what a lot of fuzzy teaching on Justification does, and all that does is encourage spiritual "navel-gazing", and creates all the doubts which is so harmful to spiritual growth. Stan | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Stan! Thank you for the welcome. I've appreciated your insightful posts in the past, when I lurked. I'm glad to find appreciation for Luther here and the concept that our will is under Original Sin as well, not excluded from the rest of us, like some pristine part, while our minds, hearts, souls, and bodies are corrupt under Adam. In mainstrean Christianity, it is almost a fight to the death to challenge 'Freedom of Choice', so I do not bring it up much, if at all, with some. (It is not just SDA's, who argue theology, I have found in my journey through religious philosophies and Christianity. For instance: Pre-tribbers and non-tribbers...oh my! I have been told that I am under a doctrine of demons because I am an amillennalist not a pre-tribber) Yet, to me, to think that some part of myself is still good enough and does a work--initial choosing (even coorporatively with Christ) is another way of human pride and a system of works, therefore another gospel. The other theology of the Holy Spirit initiating it all to begin with makes sense with scripture, to me, and how Luther explains it, and other modern theologians. I cannot explain as they do. Issuesetc.org does a good job for us simple lay people. I agree, bringing works in, in any way, adding to the Cross, makes it another Gospel, everytime. (I cannot hold with Wesley, either, nor the extreme of Calvinism. Nor do Lutherans). There is no way around that. It has happened down through the past 2000 years; it is not just SDA's. I see it all around us in various movements in mainstream Christianity, as we speak. True, orthodox (basic) Christianity is the ONLY belief system, which has no way of works to become 'better', get to a better place, etc. ALL other belief systems from the beginning of history are a system of works, all. The cross was/is unigue. All other belief systems, in some form or another, propitiate to the god. Our God propitiates for us. Sadly, because so many Christians have messed this up, many non-Christans think we are a system of works, as well. I constantly run into this with my non-christian friends or others, I run into. I just did with a new ex-Mormon aquaintence, who left his home religion, years ago, and became Agnostic, thinking all religions were the same. The Gospel is pretty simple, actually. Humans make it convoluted. Simple is good. But it took me a long time to get that! His child, Cathy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 805 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Cathy, I agree..."simple is good". The simplicity of the Cross is the one thing that is constantly being assaulted in so many places...even Christian churches. grace always, cindy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 381 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cathy, Ric_b and I just recently finished a "sprint" class in Sunday School on Revelation in the Lutheran church we're attending. It's the first serious look I've had a amillenialism, and it seems to make a lot of sense. I'm very attracted to Lutheran theology because they have the Gospel completely correct. It seems like so many other churches we checked out (around us anyway) find some way to bring works into the back door, and that just defeats the point of the Gospel. One of these days, I'll have to take the time to read "Bondage of the Will" like I keep hearing so much about on here. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2006 |
Raven, Glad to meet you! If you would like to email me with any questions, please, feel free to. I found Christ, the Gospel, the Word presented in every service, a sacred comfort and peace in the Lutheran church (after several denominations). I truly feel that God lead me there. There are several Synods, so not all Lutherans are the same. Some are very conservative, some are not, but none are 'works'. I joined the Missouri, but might change to the Evangelicals. Peace to you, Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2005 |
Cathy2...I live in Missouri, too. I've not yet considered the Lutheran church in my searching for a new church, but your comments have me interested. In what area do you live? What are the differences between the various Lutheran Synods? | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi from a new member! For my two cents,as a former SDA I really love the ELCA church I am a member of, but I'm sure some congregations are different than others. As protestant churches go, it may be a tad liberal, but after Adventism,they are just what I need. I belive that almost any church that teaches salvation by Christ alone and not anything added is probably ok. I have lurked enough to know that there are many posters here that are far more advanced theologically than I, but that is why I love to go here. I am quite impressed with Martin Luther by what I have read from him and about him. I don't know if I will do a lot of posting, but I appreciate those of you that do! Peace be with you through our Lord Jesus Christ! Rick | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2006 |
Philipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Cathy2, this is one of my favorite bible verses and simplifies sanctification for me. It is the work of God. He is faithful, and notice, He will perform the work. Our part is simple; submit to the will of God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Follow the Truth of His Word and the Truth will set us free. Be Confident! Hello, Honestwitness, I miss our conversations. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2337 Registered: 3-2004  |
4truth, Welcome to FAF. I am glad you are here. The thing that amazes me is how simple the Gospel is. I accept and love Jesus Christ. He sends the Holy Spirit to teach me and then He continues the work He began in me. I am free in Jesus Christ. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lutheran synods split and merge over some relatively small things (IMO). Some of the main question related to the various splits are who can take communion, who can vote in the church, who can preach, and who can be ordained. In addition they have various debates about specifically how to word aspects of the liturgy. For those coming from church with a diverse range of beliefs under one umbrella it seems really strange (and even silly) The 3 main US synods are ELCA, LCMS and WELS. ELCA is the most liberal. Women can be ordained, preach, and vote. Communion is open to all who wish to praticipate. ELCA will allow non-ELCA ministers to speak from the pulpit. ELCA is very ecumenical. WELS is the most conservative. Woman can not vote or even speak from the front of the church (i.e. Scripture reading). Obviously ordination is out of the question. Communion is generally only given to members. WELS will not share the pulpit with any non-WELS person. LCMS falls inbetween. Women can vote. Women can do Scripture readings (but not the Gospel reading nor preach). Communion practices very a little between churches, but lean towards closed communion. LCMS will share the pulpit with non-LCMS. But LCMS is struggling with its identity. One group is pulling it strongly towards WELS, while another is pulling it towards ELCA. Individual LCMS churches fall all over that spectrum (we attend one that is far closer to ELCA in many of the practices). | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 957 Registered: 7-2004 |
That is why I choose to remain non-denominational, all for Jesus. Everything that we humans do seems to boil down to one competition or another. God, in his wisdom, has chosen to make our helplessness very clear to us, and then leaves us in the position of having nothing we can do to improve on our situation with him. We are already perfect because of the perfection he has given. If we try to add anything to it we end up diminishing rather than enlarging the blessing. That is the simplicity of the gospel. Jesus calls us to him. Jesus bathes us clean in his blood. Jesus sends us the Holy Spirit to clean us up from the inside out. Jesus pours out the blessings on our lives. So far we are as helpless as newborns, and will remain that helpless until he calls us home to heaven. Even there we will be totally dependant up on Him for our continuance. You know what, I've been so good at making mistakes in my life that I am perfectly okay with turning the whole shooting match over to him, forever. Try to communicate that simplicity to people who have been drubbed for their whole lives with the belief that they have to clean things up for Jesus, or that Jesus helps us do the cleaning up, and you will get resistance. Jesus doesn't help us clean up our lives. He cleans. We stand. We surrender to his soap and water (blood) and we stand. That's it! How much do we each trust him to do a thorough enough job? Given some perspective we can finally realize that he sees us in a totally effective manner, so he sees what we need much better than we would ourselves. Jesus Loves Me! Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2338 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 436 Registered: 7-2004 |
Belva, I unfortunately find that some non-demons have become as proud of their belonging and as judgmental of other groups as many of the denoms have been. Any time where we belong is seen as more important than to Whom we belong, human institutions are creating a problem. I agree that the Gospel is simple and it is unfortunate that we messed up folks keep trying to complicate it. And there is no greater comfort than knowing we can turn all of it totally over to Him (Stan--another argument in favor of monergistic sanctification)! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 959 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ric, When I said that I wish to stay non-denominational, I meant that I have avoided joining with one group or another. Fortunately I have found a congregation that loves Jesus and preaches scripture. The outside of the church says Presbyterian, but that doesn't matter to me. If I move to another community I will attend various churches until I find one that feels right for me. I will join in, but I will not join. I'm gun-shy. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1350 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy2, I want to go back to what you said in post number 13, where you said that the doctrine of free-will so permeates much of evangelical Christianity, and believing that our free-will cooperates with God as being another gospel. That does seem to be the logical conclusion of Pelagianism/Arminianism. Jackob on another thread posted an article that is so important to this entire discussion at www.modernreformation.org/rc01pelagian.htm It seems to me that the very root of SDAs false doctrine of the Investigative Judgment and Wesley's doctrine of perfectionism which EGW also taught. But this same type of Pelagian heresy that R.C. Sproul talks about in this article in which he describes the Pelagian captivity of the evangelical church is also prevalent in the present day. The point he is really making is that much of evangelicalism is really so much like Roman Catholicism, except minus the priestly robes, and a lot of the sacraments. It is really important to get back to the basic doctrine that salvation is ALL OF GRACE, and none of our own works or free-will. As Jackob pointed out, free-will really does corrupt so much doctrine. I heard an interesting point today by one teacher. He talked about how the Sabbath in the Old Covenant was a type of salvation. Absolutely no work was to be done on the Sabbath. In Numbers 15, when the man who was picking up sticks on the Sabbath was stoned to death, that this was a serious offense in God's sight because this man was trying to add to God's salvation plan even in the very slightest. This is a serious matter in God's sight. He then drew an analogy to the New Covenant plan of salvation. Man in no way can add anything--not even his free will to God's salvation plan without corrupting it. If we are trusting in anything for our salvation, then it is an offense to God. Now, this doesn't mean that many people who do believe in free-will are not saved, because God is still very gracious, and he saves many people even if their theology is not correct. A theology test is not a prerequisite for salvation. But I thought this was an interesting point in regard to this discussion of free-will. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 437 Registered: 7-2004 |
Belva-I think we are agreeing not disagreeing. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2006 |
Stan, I completely agree with your words below (and all else): "It is really important to get back to the basic doctrine that salvation is ALL OF GRACE, and none of our own works or free-will. As Jackob pointed out, free-will really does corrupt so much doctrine." When I stumbled across Luther's 'Bondage of the Will' a few years ago and that entire concept, I was in shock! I ahd never heard of such a thing. Even out of Adventism, our 'freedom of choice', free-will, was such a given in theology, wherever I went...But, since I had learned to trust other teachings as correct from scripture, i read it and other articles and it made sense becasue it is all about Christ, grace and what *he* does, not me, which I was already into about the Gosepl. As Americans, I think we are too indocrinated into 'freedoms', as well as choices, and 'rights' at times. In the Bible, they had never heard of such things in their cultures. I am sure that the concpet of their will being corrupted and dead under Adam, needing the Holy Spirit, was no probelm for their minds. They (and us) were entirely chained, enslaved under sin, then freed by and under Christ, alone, by Grace and faith alone; and faith is a gift from God, produced by the Holy Spirit. Some is a mystery and we cannot claim to understand it all. One reason I like the Lutherans (and others) is that, when they do not completely understand a mystery of God, they outright say so ('offically', too). They do not arrogantly have it all wrapped up to the nth detail. I've been looking up things all weekend. Thanks for the thoughts and articles. It will help me, when someone asks about sanctification. I would like to have a simple answer, but with a coherent explanation, and all of this is helping it gel in my mind. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Belva, I was where you are at in my thirties, I didn't want to belong to any denomination at all. Very gun-shy,as you put it. I did go to a non-denominational mega church for a few years, but I found that they were all over the place and went after every 'new thing', which came down the pike. It just confused me more and I didn't find the Gospel there. Very few, I met, knew of it nor could answer my questions. There were many bells and whistles, but very little preaching from scripture. On the otherhand, I believe that we are all where we are supposed to be and learning what we are supposed to be learning in God's will and his timing. Looking back, I know I was there for a time, for a purpose; a part of my path and journey seeking and in the Lord. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Honestwitness, Hi! Glad to meet you! I'm sorry I didn't make it clear in what I wrote. I live in Colorado. I meant I joined the Lutheran Missouri synod(LCMS). Ric_b gave a good synopsis, better than me, I think. I don't know as much about WELS. Thanks Ric! If it were myself trying to learn, I woud put the acronyms into Google and read about each one adn decide which 'flavor' you like in the finer points, where they differ in teachings (but they do not differ on the gospel). Of course, each local church has its own atmosphere, too. Here, the ELCA is more outgoing, than the LCMS. I don't know why that is. I grew up with more church socializing, so it was strange to me. I go for the scripture and Gospel presented and uplifted, the sacrement (sacred act of God that means) of communion, and so my children will learn the Gospel, scripture, Bible stories and meet christian friends and moral activities. I studied them and asked questions of the pastor on the phone, before I ever went, then felt just right, at peace, when I did go. God will lead you. Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1351 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy2, You entitled this thread "May I have your insights?" I really appreciate your insights in just the short period of time you have been posting. You stated the issues about free-will so well. It is a shock when a person comes to realize that they had absolutely nothing to do with their salvation. It didn't come to me until about eight years after I had been truly become saved, so that is why I think that it is important to emphasize that even though a lot of people don't see this truth, they are indeed truly saved. I know that you originally started this thread to discuss sanctification. But a whole lot of truth has crystallized here for me while following this thread. I know it appears we got sidetracked a little by discussing free-will and monergistic regeneration. But really, this is not a sidetrack, but part of the main track. Now, Ric_b's post of that article on monergistic sanctification by Scaer makes even more sense to me. A correct view of sanctification is most likely to result if we have a correct view of regeneration, justification, adoption, and sealing by the Holy Spirit. In Adventism, the cart was put before the horse. Sanctification was the ultimate basis of our acceptance before God as evidenced by the IJ doctrine. In the introduction to Luther's "Bondage of the Will" by J.I. Packer, Packer states "Whoever puts this book down without having realized that Evangelical theology STANDS OR FALLS with the doctrine of the bondage of the will has read it in vain. The doctrine of free justification by faith alone, which became the storm center of so much controversy during the Reformation period, is often regarded as the heart of the Reformer's theology, but this is not accurate. The truth is that their thinking was really centered on the contention of Paul...that the sinner's entire salvation is by free and sovereign grace only, and that the doctrine of justification by faith was important to them because it safeguarded the principle of sovereign grace..." So, the basis of our salvation is God's sovereign, free choice, and He does all the work of Regeneration. He then justifies us freely by His grace, and adopts us permanently as His children, and guarantees our salvation by sealing us with His Spirit. Then, from that, when we have a heart of gratitude for God's wondrous grace in saving us, then it follows that sanctification is also a work of grace done by God alone through the Holy Spirit. We obey out of a heart of gratitude, and He wills and works in us according to His good pleasure. Soli Deo Gloria (To God alone be the glory) for so great a salvation! Thanks to all on this thread for offering their insights into this very important topic. Stan |
