| Author | Message | ||
| Ratthedd Registered user Username: Ratthedd Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2006 |
I've been reading a lot of the old threads here on FAF and a continuing theme that crops up is this rift that is created between new 'Formers' and their friends and families left in the Adventist hold. The new peace, found by leaving, seems to always be accompanied by a new fear or hatred for all things that even remotely smell of Adventism. Parents and children write cutting remarks to each other, spouses threaten separation, and friendships are abandoned without remorse. What is it about the Adventist grip that cause so much resentment? This pervasive theme is often accompanied by lists of indicators showing Adventism to be a false doctrine, at least, and more often an all out cult, indistinguishable from the Branch Davidians or the People's Temple. So here's the question: Are Adventists dangerous? If we don't convince our friends and loved ones to leave the church are they doomed? Does god hate Adventists? Does god hate those who are bound by law and blind to grace? Some food for discussion... Erik. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1102 Registered: 10-2004  |
Erik, SDAism is indistinguishable from the Branch Davidians. The Branch Davidians are SDA ("Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventists"). SDAism is a theological cult and also matches the marks of a sociological/mind control cult. So yes, it is important to get members out of it, just as it is for any cult. But the most important thing is that they need to be born again (if they have not been) and set free in Jesus Christ and understand the Good News of the Gospel and the New Covenant. I think you will find much love (not hatred or resentment) among former SDAs toward the people who are deceived and trapped in the SDA cult. Yes we hate Adventism's demonic doctrine and deception. But that does not mean we hate the people. We pray for them to be set free in Jesus. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 21, 2006) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 415 Registered: 8-2004  |
Erik wrote: "Are Adventists dangerous?" More than other humans you mean? "If we don't convince our friends and loved ones to leave the church are they doomed?" The Holy Spirit is the one who convinces the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Every one, Adventist or otherwise, who does not heed His call is doomed. It is our part to follow where Jesus leads - which includes sharing what we have found of Reality, and warning of the pitfalls we have been rescued from. "Does god hate Adventists?" Does God hate any people? "Does god hate those who are bound by law and blind to grace?" Again, does God hate any people? In my understanding, God so loved the world (including every kind of sinner) that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever (again, including every human on the planet) should not perish, but have everlasting life. So no, God doesn't hate Adventists! Thankfully! He doesn't hate those of us who are not Adventist either. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 304 Registered: 10-2005 |
Erik, You could compare the Adventist Church to a dyfunctional family. When a child grows up in a home with abuse or negativity, they think abuse or negativity is normal. When a child grows up and leaves home and learns that abuse and negativity is not acceptable behavior in the real world, they often start questioning what is normal. It could be similar to spiritual abuse. Many Adventists don't know better. They think that because they have experienced certain positive feelings in church, it drowns out the negatives and they just never really see it as anything but normal. Perhaps some people in this forum finally have found a place where they have a voice. Many were victims and isn't it fitting to finally allow them to speak up since there is none of that in the Seventh-day Adventist church. There is darkness in Adventism. It is not all light. Adventism is not the only light, as taught by Adventists. Of course there is danger in this sort of doctrine (EGW), especially in the wrong hands. The majority of Seventh-day Adventists are NOT dangerous. Are Seventh-day Adventists in danger? Of course many are. You can't be in the grip of Satan and not be in at least a little danger. God doesn't hate those who are bound by law and blind to grace. Most Seventh-day Adventists think they have grace, they are told that. God doesn't hate people who are sincerely seeking Him. I think some Adventists do have grace. It is difficult to be an Adventist though and have grace alone due do the nature of the doctrine. When I think of some people, particularly in leadership, in this denomination, one word comes to mind - Arrogance. William Miller repented. The Seventh-day Adventist church is made up of vision after vision to cover errors. It wasn't a Great Disappointment. It was just plain wrong. Repent and be forgiven! Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. Lynne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1103 Registered: 10-2004 |
Erik, how about if we re-word it to: "Is Adventism dangerous?" Adventism is very dangerous spiritually and leads many people to hell with its false gospel. And those who are saved and are in Adventism are hindered greatly spiritually and suffer much spiritual abuse. In addition to this, many SDAs (especially children) are traumatized and abused emotionally and mentally and even physically. SDAism is a message of hopelessness and causes much anxiety for a lot of members, especially when they do try to become perfect and can't! Many people have given up and have committed suicide due to Adventism. People have also had health problems and even died as a result of following the dangerous diet that EGW encouraged (and also because of her medical restrictions, etc.), hoping that it would help them "perfect themselves" so they could gain eternal life. Also, due to the money-making scam that the SDA church is, many people have suffered "financial abuse" and even have been very poor and suffered in many different ways due to the SDA cult telling them that they have to "pay tithe" plus additional offerings/SDA purchases no matter how poor they are, in order to go to heaven! Yes, Adventism is a dangerous cult. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 21, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3423 Registered: 12-2003  |
Erik, the contrast between Adventist doctrines and the gospel of God's grace is night and day. The issue is not, as I think you really know, choosing between philosophies. The issue is casting one's allegiance with God or with all that is not of God. When a person has a divided heart, he neither experiences resolution and peace in his life nor does he have freedom. The issue each person faces in his life is the issue of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 401 Registered: 1-2003  |
WOW Jeremy, You said, "SDAism is indistinguishable from the Branch Davidians. The Branch Davidians are SDA ("Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventists")." Isn't that a little harsh?? You don't think there are any shades of grey? I'm not here to defend SDAs or the denomination, I have MANY questions and things that I do not agree with but such black and white statements make me feel that if I do not agree with you in all things that I'm of the devil. It makes dialogue a little difficult. Actually I guess dialogue is not really needed since my only commitment is to my Savior and to seek His face and follow in His steps. i will continue my study and time of resting in His arms. Jeremy please remember that a church is made up of living breathing people. Some of these people are hurting and exploring their relationship with God in new and beautiful ways. Some of these hurting people might even be in positions of responsibility and we have no way of reading their hearts or know their hurts. You say you are only against an organization but THIS organization is made up of flesh and blood people and making a comparison with the Branch Dividians is a little harsh in my view. I seek to keep the face of Christ before me at all times and a willingness to follow where ever he might lead. I have complete confidence that God will lead me and direct me in His time to where He has a ministry for me. He has already lead me over the past few years in marvelous ways. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2004 |
Richard, I always appreciate your gentle spirit and desire to keep things soft hearted. Something that strikes me is that the Branch Davidians are made up of the same breathing flesh and blood people that the SDA church is. Many of them are hurting and looking for more. That doesn't make what they teach any more OK doctrinally. If I had family members that were Branch Davidians I would be praying my heart out and doing everything in my power to help them to see the errors and the danger they were in. In fact, I do have family and friends that I fear desperately for because I love them and I worry about their salvation. There are many within Adventism that do not even know how to have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. I also have many dear Adventist friends who are saved and know Jesus personally. Although I wonder how long they will continue to persistently live with the dissonance and their own questionings, I donít worry about them nearly as much. I deeply love all of my Adventist family and friends and try not to let anything I do hurt them. But I have failed miserably because my leaving Adventism publicly has been the biggest hurt they could ever endure. They will never forgive me for it until their own eyes are opened. And although that isnít something I can do myself (it is only by the Holy Spirit) I will continue to share the Gospel and the freedom Iíve found in Christ. I thank God every day for the people who went before me and set this place up, who published their findings on Adventism and work daily to fight itís legalism. If it werenít for these people Iíd have never have searched or followed the Holy Spirits leading to leave. I come here to dialogue with others who have been through the same or very similar experiences. If you look at the vast number of people who leave the SDA church, most everyone will state the same thing about being set free in Christ when they leave. Adventism is a system of corruption and full of lies and deceits. I think we can love the people and yet still hate the system. In fact, I do have family and friends that I fear desperately for because I love them and I worry about their salvation. There are many within Adventism that do not even know how to have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2004 |
Oops, I think something went wrong there and things got jumbled around. Just skip that repeated last paragraph. | ||
| Ratthedd Registered user Username: Ratthedd Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy, How, exactly, does Adventism lead people to hell? In Mark 9, the disciples complained to Jesus that someone was casting out demons in his name but was not one of them and Jesus answered, "Do not stop him. No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward." If there are Adventists who are otherwise deluded about the nature of grace but still cast out demons, heal the sick, and feed the hungry doesn't god still give them their reward? Lynn, I understand the reasons why EGW is called a false prophet, but do you really think that all those Adventists are in the grip of Satan? I think you hit the mark calling many in Adventist leadership positions arrogant; I've experienced this first hand many times. I'd even go so far as to say that many of those arrogant leaders are dangerous, but does their dangerous nature make all their followers dangerous? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1300 Registered: 7-2003  |
Ratthedd, I'm not Jeremy, but I know Mormons also claim to do things in the name of Jesus. Are we saying their gospel is okay as long as they use the name of Jesus? There may be some who understand the gospel as explained in scripture, but even my SDA friend says that many in the SDA church are confused about what the gospel really is. So, it's not simply a lack of understanding about grace, it's a lack of faith in the true gospel that makes their actions dangerous. When they mislead people into a false salvation, yes, they lead them to hell. There is only one gospel. Only one way to salvation, only one NAME by which one must be saved. To the extent that adventism dilutes, if not outright pollutes, the gospel ... they lead people to a Christless eternity. I'm not Lynne either, but I'll offer my opinion here too. Scripture is clear that you are either for God or against him. To the extent that EGW was lead by demonic forces (and if she wasn't lead by God, what is the alternative claim?) and to the extent that the SDA people hold on to her and her teachings, I would think they're under a demonic oppression. There are certainly good and well meaning "followers", but as long as their interest is in propogating the goals of their leaders, they are low on my trust scale. I've tried treating Adventists as equal Christians back when I first experienced them...it's not reciprocated. And it's hard to really trust someone who's so untrusting of me. I also realize it's hard to make broad stroke generalizations, so I recognize there are exceptions as well. I just don't personally know any... (and my sample pool is small). | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 |
I try to seperate individuals from Adventist doctrine, which indoctrinates like into our bones and blood, 'brainwashes', to the point of convoluted and illogical thinking, even cognitive dissonance. As experts in Cultology say, anyone can succumb. I believe that only the power and grace of the Holy Spirit can get us out, tear away that false veil. (as I've seen discussed here) One can look at individuals as victims of the continuing doctrine they are drowned in every week, if not more so. (Like those of us going to SDA schools all our lives, besides getting it at home, too, not jsut church and Sabbath School) Adventist doctrine is *spiritually* dangerous, creating spiritual victims, whom Christ came to rescue. But I do not determine other's eternal destiny. That is God's job, not mine. No one's story is finished yet. God's grace is vast. Because of the narcissictic overtones of the doctrine, 'Pioneers', roots and foundations (elitism, self-righteousness over everyone else on the planet and perfect legalism, which bears fruit of pride, defensiveness, blame), individuals (and the institution, itself,) are dangerous to *themselves*; and, at times, to others, in families, and outsiders (i.e. abuse issues, which have come out) Would they ever be so dangerous to themselves and others on the level of a David Keresh in the future, bringing about their own 'Armeggedeon'? I do not know, but it would be far, far in the future, imho. I think it is more likely that they will be more and more societally accepted, as they already are, even on political levels, as they are, now. Thatis a more subtle lie of Evil, more effective and long term. And more dangerous, especially, with a little Truth mixed into it. These are just a few of my observations and opinions, after almost 30 years of the process of getting away and out from Adventism (and it all out of my brain, too!). All of my family, close and extended, but one (a Catholic now) are Adventists of every 'kind'. They are good people and wouldn't harm anyone, but I do not see much real serenity in them. The peace of Christ. Christ in them, in spite of them (Like I see him in others).I've seen much harm from the SDA doctrine of legalism down through their genrations and it is tragic on a personal level for them, and I sorrow deeply. I so deeply desire for them to know the real Jesus, the real cross and real grace. Without knowing that, anything else is another Gospel, as scripture says, and that is *always* dangerous potentially in any way, at any level, for any person. Grace is safe, Cathy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2005 |
I find that many times it is difficult for us to objectively address the impact of Adventism on our lives. That is because we are too close to it. Living here in Salt Lake City, in the armpit of Mormonism, has been a real eye opener. For the past 50+ years, as a 4th generation Seventh-day Adventist, I have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. To see another very similiar cult, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon), with many of the same tendencies and "remnant church" mentality as Seventh-day Adventism draws daily parallels that much too strong to ignore. I find that many of these philosphical, social and emotional questions can be best answered by substituting the word "Mormon" in place of the word "Adventist" and asking ourselves the same questions. For example, to paraphrase the questions ask at the beginning of this thread: "I've been reading a lot of the old threads here on http://www.exmormon.org/ and http://www.utlm.org/, and a continuing theme that crops up is this rift that is created between new 'Ex-Mormons' and their friends and families left in the Mormon hold. The new peace, found by leaving, seems to always be accompanied by a new fear or hatred for all things that even remotely smell of Mormonism. Parents and children write cutting remarks to each other, spouses threaten separation, and friendships are abandoned without remorse. What is it about the Mormon grip that cause so much resentment? Do you see how this puts the question in a fresh light? I daily work and associate with mostly Mormons. They are not beasts. They are dear, humble (most of them), deeply devoted to the writings of Joseph Smith, live clean lifestyles and are very neighborly. The have a social network that is the envy of any other religion. So why would anyone want to leave Mormonism? Just imagine for a moment what it is like for someone that decides that they want to leave Mormonism. Unless you understand the influence of Mormonism, I don't think you can even begin to fathom what that would be like. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Ratthedd Registered user Username: Ratthedd Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2006 |
So does a message like that taught by the Mormons or Adventists cause people to do bad things? It's not like either of those groups is deliberately seeking personal gain like some charlatans (Robert Tilton's behavior comes to mind.) Yes, there probably are people in leadership positions in either of those groups who are there for personal gain but does that condemn the whole orginization? While we don't agree with the Mormon message, there are still plenty of people who have gained spiritual blessings from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The misguided actions of a few charlatans in leadership positions don't condemn the whole organization and the inspired ministrations of others don't save the whole organization. We are each judged as individuals. I guess what I'm getting at is an attempt to ease the rift some have between themselves and their parents or spouses. Paul writes in 1 Cor. 7 "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." Let your parents and spouses participate in the Adventist church; not all the people there are evil. Rest assured that they will be judged on their merrits. If you feel your parents or spouses believe you to be lost have them read 1 Cor. so they can have peace that your presumed 'unbeliever' status does not condemn you. Erik. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3425 Registered: 12-2003 |
Erik, it is not primarily those who have left Adventism that create the rift. The rift is caused by the exposure of Adventist deception; those not yet willing to question or see the problems want to put the proverbial bushel over the light and extinguish it. Adventism (not Adventists) is a false gospel and is spawned from deception. It cannot be "reformed", because there is no core pillar of orthodox Christianity on which to rebuild. Adventism is fatally flawed, and it truly does lead people away from Jesus. There are only two "places" to be in the universe: in Christ or outside Him; spiritually alive (saved) or spiritually dead (remaining in our natural human condition--Ephesians 2:4). If a church does not lead people to know the Jesus of the Bible, their religion leaves people spiritually dead. God, however, sovereignly intervenes in all our lives, and He brings each of us to moments when we must deal with Jesus' call on our lives. The fact that some people do find Jesus within Adventism is not the result of Adventismóit is the result of the Holy Spirit. God is clear that even evil people are His servants (think Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus); in His sovereignty, even evil plans work out "in conformity with the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). The fact that evil is subject to the sovereignty of God does not excuse evil people. God holds each of us responsible for what we do with Christ (on this side of the cross) and with His promises and His personal call to us (both sides of the cross). Jesus clearly said that He did not come to bring peace but a sword (Matt 10:34) He said he came to turn family members against each other (Matt. 10:35-36). This "turning against" is not personal animosity; it is the absolutely unavoidable result of light meeting darkness. It is "kingdom against kingdom", as one person who attended this past weekend said. Those who have left Adventism for the sake of Jesus (I'm not here including those who have left because they "didn't agree" or couldn't make sense of it or live by it's standards) find themsleves in unresolvable disagreements with family who remain because those still inside often are not willing to KNOW the truth of why their loved ones left. Their Adventist understanding and identity is still more important to them than is Truth or the real Jesus. They hide behind what they've been taught Jesus and His gospel are instead of risking change by personally investigating. Of course we're "letting" our parents and spouses participate in the Adventist church. The discomfort comes not because they are Adventist but because they fear what we say, and arguments and shaming and blaming result. None of this means we "write them off". The distance that develops is not the result of our personal antipathy. It's the unavoidable result of light shining on darkness, and darkness not receiving the light. Adventism is based on falsehood, and it generates darkness. That's why the Branch Davidians still claim Adventism: they are reactionary and even rabid in their embracing of the parts of Adventism that they cling toóbut make no mistake, they ARE Adventists, no matter how much the church wants to distance itself from them. The fact that many Adventists do know Jesus and are growing in Him has nothing to do with their Adventism, as I said above. It has everything to do with the Holy Spirit. I really do believe that God continues to reveal Himself to those who respond to His Spirit. If a person is really committed to knowing Jesus, his cognitive dissonance will only increase as he tries to reconcile Jesus with Adventism. Because it was founded in deception and is therefore not a work of God, there is a spiritual oppression involved in being Adventist. This oppression does not mean an Adventist cannot be saved. Clearly many are. But Jesus frees us from oppression and bondage and gives us His grace and Spirit to follow Him wherever He leads on the road to freedom in Him. He just asks us to be willing to trust Himóonly Himóand to be willing to let goófor His sakeó of whatever we love as He makes truth clear. As long as we are saying "yes" to Him as He reveals Himself and His will to us, we continue to grow in Him. We stunt our growth as we cling to what we love and rationalize the things we don't want to face. Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jeremy, I want to say thank you for your blunt honesty. I was raised by a former Catholic who taught me God is harsh. I went to the Adventists and accepted Jesus, grace alone. I believed He was loving and that He loved me. I loved Him too and gave my heart to Him. However, I COULD NOT PLEASE HIM. That is what the Adventists REALLY, REALISTICALLY TAUGHT ME. Early on in my Adventist experience I COULD NOT PLEASE GOD. He was wonderful to me, He loved me, Jesus died for me. BUT, I was not good enough! I could not DO ALL, or EVEN SOME of what He expected of me. I tried to commit suicide once early in my Adventist experience. NOBODY COULD WANT TO PLEASE GOD MORE THAN ME, and I couldn't. I remained a GOD pleaser for years, because I thought that maybe, just maybe, some day I might get it right. But I just kept pushing closer to unbelief, but I couldn't stop believing. Perhaps I might have lost my sanity at some point. Yes, false religion is dangerous. I've seen good Catholics turn away from religion because God is unfair. They are not saved and they don't want to have anything to do with God because God expects the impossible. False teachings. If the Davidians were almost all Former Seventh-day Adventists, what does that say? Did the Adventist church or doctrine help mold them in any way? Of course it did. The Davidians love Ellen White. No, I don't think Jeremy was too harsh. Davidians are people too. And out of respect for those little children who died as a result of that whole fiasco, this is dangerous doctrine. They can say it is really about Jesus, but IT ISN'T. As it was in the 1800s, so it is now. People go in believers and many go out unbelievers. My experience tells me it is dangerous and Satanic. As Colleen said: "When a person has a divided heart, he neither experiences resolution and peace in his life nor does he have freedom. The issue each person faces in his life is the issue of Jesus." Thank you Colleen. Lynne | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006 |
What comes to my mind are the 'Spiritual' leaders of Israel in Jesus' time. How 'good', 'clean', 'moral' and lawful, good citizens they were... As perfect as a human could get, externally, in human eyes... As an SDA, I thought I was that 'good', better than others...well most of the time, when I was deep in my pride. I was taught to feel that way in babyhood. (My, my, how did God bring me down! But that's another story) Jesus called them sons of the devil and serpents. He couldn't have used stronger language in those days and they knew exactly what he meant by it. But he did not say these things to the common people, who were victims of thier oppressive leadership and teachings (The Talmud, which was begun in Babylon). These leaders, also, resented his compassion to the common people, not just their perceived threat to their power base, tied to secualr/political Rome. I always remember that power, profit and pride is at the root of all that is wrong in something, whether it is an organization, leader or individual, whether secular or of a religion. And whether of one of those or all three, they always deceive others to get power, profit and pride (self-righteousness). To me, it doesn't matter if it's Adventism, LDS or Scientology, etc., the roots and methodology are found to be the same in some or all ways. So are the results; people are wounded and crippled, spiritually, emotionally, relationally, mentally and intellectulaly. All of this is 'dangerous', inmho. Sematics on 'cults' or semi-cults, to me, don't matter (and I've studied this for 12 years because I was in one or two). Results do. I shudder at the results over the woundedness. My family is not always nice to me and my children. When I found my true Lord and grace, leaving Adventism, they reacted either indifferently, silent when I excitedly spoke of Jesus, or with out and out insults. But is that dangerous to me? No. I know my Lord, his truth and he knows me. My family cannot truly harm me, for I am safe in Christ. But their belief system is harming *them* because it makes them seperate from family, others and loving, connecting, and makes them resent even famliy. Being in Christ does not make one do that. Being in Christ and Christ in us brings connections and healing on all levels in ourselves and with others. (this is one way the Gospel is spread) And their belief system separates others from Christ, when they are taught of it. They are being taught another Gospel. In scripture it is the only point and bottom line of anything and everything. If *anything* seperates one from Christ, is that not dangerous enough? Does that not wound and cripple a person on all levels enough? Or do we think just a little bit of Christ is enough, for life? We on our own cannot gain a little bit of Christ, at all, ever. He fills us up with all of himself to become Living Souls. Does Adventism do this? Our former people (SDA's) are not monsters. They are hurting, suffering, oppressed, blinded victims of false doctrine (and I agree with Colleen and Lynne that its roots are Satanic, binding like chains) and lying, hyprocritical, abusive leaders. That is dangerous to many. That is why some former SDA's are burdened in our hearts for 'our people', whom we grew up with. We want them free, not verbally torn down. (as some of them do to us)WE desire them built up in Christ. ~The name of the Lord is a strong tower. The righteous run to it and are safe~ Proverbs Rightous only through him. I hope you don't mind my gut honesty here. All is spoken in love, ~always~ I have no time in my life, anymore, except for truth. Peace in Christ and his love, Cathy | ||
| Ratthedd Registered user Username: Ratthedd Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2006 |
Gilbert, Thanks for you comparison. I think that's the way I see it too. There are good people who are in a bad place, but that does not make them bad people. I, too, have known Mormons, Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses were were genuinely good people. As you say, dear, humble, and devoted people with one flaw--they believe the teachings of "X" rather than truly beliving in god. Colleen, Thanks for your insights on the two-sidedness of the rift. I agree completely. So how do we go about bridging the chasm between the two sides? Although Jesus said he came to turn family member against family member, I can't imagine that that was really a primary objective but rather an unfortunate result of his message. Again, where does the healing process begin? Is Adventism like alcoholism in that the fist step in healing is admitting there is a problem? When we ask our Adventist friends and family mebers to look deep inside and look at the signs that they are being misled should we expect anything other than denial? Erik. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 171 Registered: 11-2005 |
Erik - I think the "short answer" is that we have to continue to: 1. love them 2. pray for them 3. continue sharing with them, as the Holy Spirit leads us, the joy and peace of the Gospel and what it means to us. It is extremely hard for them to argue with a truly Spirit-filled life. On the outside, I have no doubt they will radiate hatred. The very concept of being the exclusive "Remnant Church" pits them against everyone that is "non-SDA" (to use their own terminology). How else can they rationalize to themselves how we are happy in God's love. This is no doubt the hardest thing for us to do, and to do it in a spirit of love. But through our continued example and prayer the Holy Spirit can work wonders -- in His time, and in ways we don't even realize. There are plenty of positive gems that we can share with them. The more they try to deny any validity to our experience, they more they can't help but question why they don't have it too. There is plenty of "common ground" that I think we can still share with them. To the extent they allow us, I think we need to use these opportunities to share areas that we can such as Bible resources, commentaries, etc. If they insist on being confrontational, encourage them to show us from the Bible where we are wrong. I know this is easier said than done, but I believe in my heart that the most powerful witness for truth is a happy Spirit-filled Christian. Gilbert Jorgensen Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1105 Registered: 10-2004 |
Richard, I was only stating facts. But I do have to wonder, why do you make it sound like the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventists are not flesh and blood people? How offended do you think a BDSDA will be, if they come across your post and read your comments? I'm sure this was not your intention, but I don't see how you can get after me for saying what I did about the SDAs, and then say what you did about the BDSDAs. I made it clear that I was not saying anything against the people. I was stating facts, as I'm sure you would do with the BDSDAs. Erik, You use Mark 9 to say that SDAism does not lead people to hell. But Melissa makes a good point: are they really doing these things in the name of Jesus, or are they only claiming to believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Jesus makes it very clear in Matthew 7 that some people who claim to have cast out demons and performed many miracles in Jesus' name will go to hell: 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matthew 7:22-23 NASB.) "Good deeds" cannot get a person into heaven--they have nothing to do with salvation. Only trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation can get you to heaven (then good deeds happen as the fruit/result of being saved). Also, some people have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible (2 Corinthians 11:4). "So does a message like that taught by the Mormons or Adventists cause people to do bad things?" Yes--legalism always does. "It's not like either of those groups is deliberately seeking personal gain like some charlatans..." Yes, they are. If you know the history of Adventism, then you know that one of the reasons it was started and continues is certainly for personal gain. James and Ellen White were some of the biggest frauds ever--and the leaders continue in that tradition today. Why do you think they refuse to be honest about EGW, if it's not for the power and billions of dollars from the lie/deception/scam? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 22, 2006) |
