| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 417 Registered: 8-2004  |
Here is an article just put online at Christianity Today: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/15.27.html Any comments? Blessings, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3435 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mary, interesting article. Steve, a member of our Friday FAF group who wrote the article a couple years ago about Adventism's Questions on Doctrine and how the SDA theologians misled Walter Martin, has made a detailed study on the major cults in the USA. His study spanned several years and included a lot of detailed reading of literature and even of Walter Martin's findings. (In fact, in was Walter Martin's "OK" that convinced him it was OK to join Adventism "back when".) He has talked about the Local Church and says that under the surface it really is heretical and cultic. In fact, it's one of the groups that has surfaced frequenetly in his comments over the past few years. My "suspicious" mind, of course, goes to Christianity Today's editor, David Neff. He used to be the pastor at the WWC Church. He claims to be no longer SDA, but I'm not aware of his actually "processing" through all the SDA "stuff", although I can't say personally what he has and hasn't done. I don't believe he refers much to his background as an Adventist. That article really disturbs me because it assumes that groups such as the Local Church are not cults based on their public statementsóeven when their doctrines are not mainstream Christianity. I don't doubt that there are people within the group that have found Christ. I share Stan's concern that Christianity is losing a lot of its focus on what really is gospel and what isn't. To assume that groups are "brothers in Christ" just because they claim to be Christian (even Mormons are often referred to as "Christian") is to miss the point. If a group points people away from the pure gospel of grace and is not founded on the gospel of Jesusóif it adds other requirements and insists that it is THE church that has it "Right", that is a red flag. None of this is to detract from the fact that God can bring people to faith in Jesus even in marginal churches. I don't want to be interpreted as saying that true conversions within these groups are suspect. We of all people should know thatómany of us did trust Christ as Adventistsóbut we didn't know our inheritance of freedom. I can't help suspecting that concern over the increasing statements about Adventism might be part of what's lurking unseen behind this article. Of course, I don't know that for sure. But it's interesting, nonetheless. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1346 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Mary for posting this. This is a very disturbing article on many fronts. Colleen has stated the problems very well. The Local Church of whom Watchman Nee was the primary leader, definitely deny the doctrine of the Trinity. John Ankerberg and John Weldon have the utmost of integrity and they don't label groups as cults without legitimate reason. As Colleen said, David Neff is actually the liberal Episcopalian editor of a magazine which has lost a lot of credibility over the last few years. They have totally embraced T.D.Jakes as their brother in Christ, even though he teaches modalism, as does the Local Church. At least Hank Hanegraaf hasn't gone this far yet. The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Ted Haggard has openly endorsed books by oneness Pentecostalists. The definition of what is evangelicalism is so loosely defined that it includes those who believe that the Sabbath will be the final test for salvation, those who deny the Trinity, and others who teach some very bizarre, unbiblical doctrines. Having said all that, I do agree with David Neff on one point, and that is how we should use the term "cult". I personally have abandoned this term for one I like better, and that is the Biblical (cult is not in the Bible) term of "another gospel" Gal. 1:8,9. If any group, or an angel from heaven teaches a gospel that Paul did not teach, then let him be anathema. All of the groups mentioned above teach another gospel or a false gospel. The term "cult" has become too inflammatory since it conjures up images of "Jim Jones" or other bizarre groups. And since Mormons et al don't come across as these strange types, then credibility might be damaged in the eyes of some, and using "cult" could then become counter-productive. But this article just illustrates why SDAs, RCC, and other aberrant groups are just classified as "just another Christian church". Stan | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 804 Registered: 7-2000 |
My computer is barely working but I will try and post.... I was a grateful subscriber to "Christianity Today" for a number of years but dropped my subscription about 5 years ago after they published some articles on the validity of an on-going "Sabbath-keeping". (back to being "under the law"...but in a Christ-centered way...you all know the whole argument!) Knowing the editor is a former Adventist, I wondered why he did not see fit to promote more the New Covenants' fulfillment of the Rest in Christ...I should have wrote him, but never did...too stressed with moving and a new job. In all fairness, I have not kept up on the magazine lately, so there may be more good articles. I know there once were...I still have many I kept over the years. grace always, cindy | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2006 |
This is from: CHRISTIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE P.O. Box 8500, Charlotte, NC 28271 Web: www.equip.org Tel: 704.887.8200 Fax: 704.887.8299 Perspective: CP0602 SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM: CHRISTIAN OR CULTIC? Seventh-day Adventism appears to be one of the fastest growing religious groups in the world. Is Seventh-day Adventism a Christian denomination or a pseudo-Christian cult? Seventh-day Adventism has remained a controversial and misunderstood group throughout its history. Evangelicals have often been divided as to how Adventism should be classified. Adventism has long born the stigma of being called a cult. Since Seventh-day Adventism does officially accept the foundational doctrines of historic Christianity (the inspiration and authority of the Bible, the Trinity, Christ's true deity, His bodily resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith) we do not believe that it should be classified as a cult. It is our conviction that one cannot be a true Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Christian Scientist, etc., and be a practicing Christian in the biblical sense of the word; but it is possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and a true follower of Jesus, despite certain distinctive Adventist doctrines which we consider to be unbiblical. This does not mean that we endorse the entire theological system of Adventism, since a portion of it is definitely out of the mainstream of historic Christian theology. This is seen in their acceptance of Sabbatarianism, extinction of the soul upon death, and their belief that the destiny of the wicked is annihilation. Though we adamantly disagree with Adventists regarding these above mentioned doctrines, it should be added that one could hold these views and remain a believing Christian. In other words, these doctrines do not secure nor necessarily inhibit salvation. Seventh-day Adventism is far from being completely unified in their beliefs. In fact, those who follow Adventism closely know that the last two decades have been characterized by a deep internal conflict which has divided the denomination and left many Adventists disillusioned. Today, there are various divisions or factions within Adventism. There are Adventists who could be described as being theologically liberal (denying key foundational Christian doctrines), others who are ultra-traditional (emphasizing almost exclusively Adventists distinctive doctrines), and still others who are strongly evangelical (or gospel centered). Our research indicates, however, that mainstream Adventism is primarily evangelical. While Adventism has not always been crystal clear in making proper distinctions between what saves us (faith or works), the great majority of Adventist scholars, teachers and pastors that I have spoken with believe firmly in salvation by grace through faith alone. Over the past four years, I have personally interviewed over one hundred Adventist pastors and over twenty of their best scholars. It is our sincere hope that this almost six-million-member church body, which has historically been a mixture of orthodox and aberrational doctrine, will move toward an even more sound evangelical position and away from some of the doctrinal errors of its past. It is our hope that the leadership of Seventh-day Adventism will lead its people out of all forms of legalism and into the liberty that results from being justified by God's grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 807 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Brian4, Interesting analysis... I wonder the date of the above? (My computer freezes up when I try to go to that link.) I know Adventism claims at least 12 to 13 million members now. Regardless, this analysis makes me sad (and angry). Two observations come to my mind: 1. Evil deception can be very subtle and even appear to others as "an angel of light". 2. Perhaps instead of interviewing "over one hundred Adventist pastors and over twenty of their best scholars" he should have interviewed former Adventists who left the denomination because of Christ...who studied the Adventist doctrine and found it severely wanting...even a denial of the sufficiency and finality of Jesus. "Another gospel"...which is really no gospel at all! grace always, cindy | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2006 |
http://www.equip.org/free/CP0602.htm I could not find a date the perspective was written. I found the article many years ago. This statement may have kept me in the Church longer than I should have been: ... "but it is possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and a true follower of Jesus, despite certain distinctive Adventist doctrines which we consider to be unbiblical." I'm so happy to no longer call myself a Seventh-day Adventist. "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2005 |
Brian4 - I always enjoy your thoughtful posts. (I likewise enjoy the rich diversity of viewpoints that we, in a spirit of friendship, share here.) Your post is an excellent one -- a concept that I have wrestled with myself. And yet, given such a strongly authoritarian form of denominational governance, I find the confidence that I need to feel like the "ship will right itself" to be eluding me At least for now, as the leadership goes, so goes the church doctrines. Yes. There are pockets of fresh thought, for example as side articles in the "Adventist Review" publication where the leadership can disclaim them, but they are more like little puffs of smoke that perhaps are generated to keep the restless feeling like "change is just around the corner." In my opinion, these evangelical reviewers would do everyone a service by closely examining what I consider to be core issues like: - What really is the Seal of God? Can Adventism deny the rightful role of the Holy Spirit, as well as His place in what Paul calls the "the Law of the Spirit of life" (Romans 8), and still be "Holy Spirit-filled"? (For that matter when was the last time any of us heard an Adventist pastor get up and talk about "the Law of the Spirit of life" vs "the Law of sin and death". To deny the transition is to deny a principal tenet of the Gospel.) Somehow the language of "Adventistese" provides most listeners with enough familiar terminology that they, like the author of this article, miss the deeper significance of those parts of Seventh-day Adventist dogma that is not grounded on the Bible. I would love to see a more "evangelical" Adventism, but as long as the Seventh-day Adventist leadership keeps the laity firmly tethered to these false doctrines, I suggest that the "puppies" can play, but they can't run any futher than their "leashes" allow. To see what happens when a real threat to one of the above points occurs, one has to look no further than the "warm welcome" extended to Desmond Ford by the Seventh-day Adventist leadership during his recent visit to California. Desmond Ford, is probably one of the most elloquent seminarians siding with them on the Seventh-day Sabbath too! As another writer recently stated to me: "To adopt the line of reasoning the sources you quote from use, would appear to destroy the application of the Day of Atonement service to the time period beginning in 1844. This would remove any purpose of existence for Seventh-day Adventists, and it will ultimately eliminate any significant meaning for the Sabbath as the Seal of God in the last struggle of the issues described in Revelation 13." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3441 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Cindy and Gilbert and Brian. One of the problems of CRI's analysis is that they assume that the SDA statement of belief regarding Biblical authority and the Trinity and Christ's identity reflects a traditional Christian viewpoint. As we who have been inside know, however, they can call the Bible authoritative and infallible all they want, but what they MEAN is that if is authoritative and infallible in the same way Ellen's writings are reliable. It's all double-talk. They do not believe the Bible is inerrant as it stands. They believe that it contains errors they must "explain away"--in the same way they explain away errors in Ellen's works. They believe the Bible writers were inspired in the same way EGW was inspired. This problem brings up a glaring omission in Hanaegraaf's analysis. He doesn't deal with Ellen White and her role in the church. She is a false prophetóor a false "messenger", to use the word Adventists like to use. Adventism still embraces her as authoritativeóofficially, as an ongoing source of authority, individually, sometimes, as a "devotional writer"óbut important nonetheless. As Cindy said, Hanegraaf should interview people who have left and found the doctrines wanting. Every one of the doctrinesóincluding their true confusion re: the identity of the Trinity and Jesusóis tainted by Ellen. The pastors and scholars are never going to tell Hank the true role of Ellenófor one thing, they've rationalized her role to themsleves until they can't admit who she really is to them. You know how it seems to so many of usóthe farther from the church we get, the more cultic and heretical we see it to be. When you're inside, you can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. We rationalize everything and live in a continuous state of cognitive dissonance. Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 810 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, yes, your observation about Adventism is very true: "the farther from the church we get, the more cultic and heretical we see it to be." I often marvel when listening to other Christians and their committment to Christ...remembering how I was brought up to believe (by Ellen Whites' writings!): that other churches were "nominal" Christians...and part of "apostate Protestant" Christianity. To live honestly, an Adventist would HAVE to deny the "continuing, authoritative" voice of their false prophet. grace always, cindy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here is something most amazing! http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3446 Registered: 12-2003 |
Heavy sign. I have yet to figure out why people consider former members of unusual groups to be so biased that their testimony is considered unreliable. I have had Christians argue with me about what Adventists really believe. I have had others tell me they are changing. People believe those who leave groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. It just amazes me that people who have left Adventism after intenseive study and after finding the true gospel of God's grace given through Christ's blood are not considered reliable witnesses. Those all-too-common phrases, "They have an axe to grind," or "They're disgruntled" seem to define most people's attitudes. The most frustrating part is that well-meaning Christians will interview Adventistsóespecially pastors and leadersóand think that because they (the interviewers) are Christians, they'll certainly pick up heresy if there is some. I want to say, "Don't be so gullible! The deception that held us in bondage until we studied the Bible deeply will no less deceive you, too!" The "lingo" (as Patria says) is the same; it takes time and literal perusal of Adventist literature to figure out the far-different interpretations of those words the Adventists embrace. Talking to pastors and leaders will certainly not give them a true picture. Paul even says evil angels masquerade as angels of light. Why wouldn't the purveyors of another gospel similarly pose to outsiders as embracing the true gospel? Often it seems that people really don't want to know the reality. If they did, they would observe and listen to those who leave for the sake of Jesus. Our pastor has said (and he absolutely understands the doctrinal and historical heresies and deceptions) that he knows there are problems in Adventism because he has seen how much angst and trauma former members experience. I can only say, "Praise God." Gary's integrity has led him believe the consistent experience he witnesses when he encounters formers. Words and doctrines can be shifted and subtlely altered to suit the hearers. People's trauma and overhwelming joy at finding Jesus, however, cannot be faked so consistently over many years. I'm so thankful that, intellecutal understanding aside, Gary believes the evidence he sees. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen wrote: "...he knows there are problems in Adventism because he has seen how much angst and trauma former members experience." Speaking of angst and trauma, I know of a former who has started sessions with a psychologist. Sometimes I've wanted to do this myself. Do you think this is the right way to go, or would it be better to counsel with a pastor from a mainstream church? I'm kind of skeptical about how much help a "worldly" professional can provide. (Message edited by honestwitness on February 26, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3450 Registered: 12-2003 |
Frankly, I'm skeptical, too, Honestwitness. If the issues are the "normal" ones of grief, losing your identity, losing family and friends, etc., it is likely that asking God to heal your heart, show you what you need to know, and change what needs to be changed along with staying immersed in His word will ultimately help you process. If you have lingering trauma from earlier abuse, however (and actually, many do), some time with a truly Christian counselor or a very savvy Christian pastor might be very helpful. I suggest that you ask God to bring into your life the mentors and Godly friends He knows you need and to provide for your healing. He will make clear to you what His will is for you, and in the process, He will begin healing your heart as well. It's in the giving up of ourselves that we find the peace we've been longing for. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2344 Registered: 3-2004  |
Honestwitness, You are in my prayers. I know God will heal your hurts and will bring the people into your life that you need. He promises He will never leave us and His promises are sure. They will not fail. God is Heaven, You are the Great Physician. Come close to this former and to Honestwitness and heal their hurts. You know best how to do this. I just know you will do what is best for them. Thank you for hearing this prayer. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 312 Registered: 10-2005 |
I am seeing so many of the same things with the Catholics and Adventists. How former Adventists are seen much in the same way as former Catholics. Disgruntled. That is, the former Catholics that speak against the church anyway. The Catholic and Adventist church have so much money. It is a part of how they get people into the church, making the churches look good in the media. They don't sell Christ, they sell the church. Churches that abuse us spirutually, hurt us at our core. That is where Satan attacks. I watched a program about stem cell research. They used a young child with a genetic disease as an example saying that without this technology, this child is certain to die. The doctors have convinced the childs parents that this is their childs only hope. I personally can see Satan in this. Some young children that are alive and dying needs those abortions to continue in order to survive! If we fall for something, we can fall for anything. We must be extremely careful. I'm speaking to myself as well. The truth is, the Seventh-day Adventist church is filled with lies. I was lied to, and worse. That does hurt. Many Catholics have experienced abuse in that church as well. The Catholic church is the wealthiest church in the world, so they can afford to cover their tracks. I heard the song today, "If He carried the weight of the world upon his shoulders, I know my sister, He will carry you." I have Jesus - nothing, I mean nothing, can be greater than that! Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1354 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lynne, That is well said. The lies that are told by the liberals about stem cell research! I still remember during the last presidential election when the VP candidate said that because Bush opposes embryos being killed, that people will not be able to walk who are paralyzed! You are so right about both SDAs and Catholics. The abuse that both religions have been responsible for is amazing. But the abuse that the RCC priests have been responsible for to young boys is beyond belief. The media has really played down the extent of this. But when you have the totally unnatural manmade rules of forced celibacy, which is a doctrine of demons, then that is what you get. Stan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 189 Registered: 11-2005 |
Honestwitness -- I would be really cautious about going to see any psychologist. There are good ones and bad ones. My wife has had cancer for the past 3+ years, and I went to a psychologist for depression. To make the story very short, the (Lutheran, eg Christian) psychologist said that there "had to be" something that had happened in my childhood that I was repressing. That was not true (excluding the lies of Adventism, of course). Both my parents loved me, and each other. The psychologist then said they were giving me a "new assignment." Every week this psychologist would have me in tears. The sixth week they wanted me to go home, and come back the next week with a list of six things I was doing to "damage my marriage." I was going by myself, since my dear wife was gone to a cancer treatment center during this time. My wife decided it had gone to far and recommended that I not go back. I now have a much better psychologist called the Holy Spirit, and an inner peace that I did not know before. Praise God! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3451 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gilbert, I totally believe that the Holy Spirit is the only One who can really help us heal internally. Our family had a wonderful experience over an extended period of time when the boys were young and suffering from the trauma of their early years. She was an amazing womanówhat I learned about twelve years later is that at the time she was seeing the boys and us, she was learning to live with AIDSóshe had contracted HIV from her husband who had died just a few (five or so?) years before we met her. As a matter of fact, she is still alive and has been involved for years in an international outreach called He Intends Victory (notice the acronym of the first letters) focusing on living with AIDS as a Christ-follower. Needless to say, her own experience was enough to make or break heróbut it became the medium of deep and intense spiritual growth and abiding trust in God. There is a saying that no therapist can help a person achieve levels of healing beyond what they themselves have reached. Now I see that her own integrity and faith is what made her such a highly effective counselor. She actively brought Jesus into the counseling sessions (and this was when we were still Adventists) and taught us how to turn to Him when certain habitual responses would start to take over. To summarize my thoughts, I agree, Gilbert, that very often counseling has limited effectiveness and sometimes is outright destructive. Jesus truly is the only One who can help us know ourselves and offer ourselves to Him at the deepest places. Sometimes God does place Christians in our lives who are able to help us for a limited time by exploring and giving perspective to things we know but which our experiences have kept us from understanding. If "therapy" isn't grounded on the reality of Biblical truth and God's sovereign grace, mercy, and justice, it will probably not help much and might even be outright damaging. If we aren't actively seeking truth and God's insight and understanding when we seek help, even Godly counseling will be relatively ineffective. You're right, Gilbertóthe Holy Spirit is the very best psychologist, and He is the only one Who can give us inner peace. He is the only one who can walk with us and heal our wounds and help us know what is real and true. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2006 |
Gilbert, How awful for you and your wife that you had to experience that psychologist, suffering even more during a stressful time. This one was very inexperinced or plain 'bad' or both. And it sounds like ignorant about the brain chemistry of depression as well. (Many know nothing about neuroscience) A good therapist never pressures nor convinces their client over anything. It is about the client, not the thrapist (and their pet theory or what they think they know about the client w/o knowing them at all nor listening). But many do not get this. I agree with Colleen in all that she wrote about Christ and that there are responsible, empathy-healing supportive therapists out there, too; but, as you said, one must be careful. Praise God that you found his serenity! That is truly lasting, secure and healing. I wish more Christians could get that horse before the cart of psychology. It has a place for release, guidance and empathy, but not before Christ. I've found that most of (or all) good therapy and all of human psychology is already in the Bible. Just add human compassion, empathy, listening and common sense. Hugs don't hurt the wounded, either. We are Jesus with skin on, as I've heard it put. Cathy |
