| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2005 |
First of all, Iím still an adventist, Iím not officially a former. Even so, I know precisely that my days in adventist church are numbered. I understand that leaving the adventist church is a MUST, not an option. I have before me not two paths, but only one: to leave. And this choice has direct bearing on my salvation. I know for sure that if I choose in the future to remain in the adventist church, Iíll be lost. This makes leaving a MUST, and this MUST create an inseparable gulf between formers and those who are still in the church and think that remaining in the church may be a right choice. Of course, Iíll leave the adventist church at the time appointed by God. Iíll work at this knowing that God prepares the way. But I have decided, Iím not still trying to figure how I can remain in the church and be a christian. This MUST is the problem with all Ńgood adventistsî When someone leave the church, someone who love deeply the church and the people in the church, there is a silent question: ŃWhy you cannot remain in the church? Why you MUST leave the church?î The people understand that, if the person have figured another good option, he/she WILL NOT leave the church, but will stay to serve their brothers and sisters. They understand, even at the subconscious level, that they are lost if formers are saved. If leaving the church has a direct bearing on salvation, being the only way to follow Jesus, they, remaining in the church, reject the ONLY way to follow Jesus. I donít want to hurt anyone feelings, God leads his children in different ways, and different times, periods. He has His timings, Iíll only pray to know when my time will come to leave the church. What I know is that Iíll have more problems with the progressive adventists, so to speak, with Ńgood adventistsî. They will not think directly that Iím lost, but will not admit that I have left the church for the sake of Christ. They will blame the people in the church and their harsh attitudes for my leaving, but will not admit the real motivation, that my leaving was not an option, but a must. Perhaps some people will appreciate what Iíll do after I leave for the people in adventist ranks, but they will consider, even at the subconscious level, that my leaving was a mistake. ŃWhat a blessing he will be if he will return and work from inside.î They will not accept the MUST in my choice. And this MUST creates the gulf that cannot be reduced. If Iím right, they are wrong and their salvation is in jeopardy. So long exists this MUST, the gulf will be there. Of course, these adventists will admit many wrongs in the church, will treat me perhaps in a good manner, but if they will not leave the church, Iím sure that they are doomed. Nobody can serve two Masters. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1338 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well said Jackob. Because you have been saved eternally and have been given a new heart of flesh, and a resurrected soul, then the Holy Spirit leads you into all truth. If a person is truly born from above, he can no longer walk in darkness. Light and Darkness can't dwell together. I agree with you, that a former SDA who is transitioning out of Adventism should leave on God's timing. I still see some good that is accomplished by some people staying where they are for awhile, and to perhaps influence others to truth. Some people can stay for awhile and not be compromised, because God may sovereignly want that person's influence. I think Des Ford actually did more good by not renouncing all SDA beliefs back in 1980, because a lot of people may never have listened to him if he had suddenly given up the Sabbath. The sanctuary doctrine is even more basic to what SDA is foundationally than the Sabbath. If you can destroy this false foundation of 1844 and the gospel-denying Investigative Judgment, then as people study they realize the rest of the pet doctrines must go. It is a house of cards, or like playing dominoes--they all fall down. I just wish Des Ford had made the final break eventually, but that too is in God's hands. Adventism is incompatible with the gospel. I believe most true Christ followers will see it and leave this false religion when God's timing is right. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 599 Registered: 4-2000  |
Gilbert, Have you ever visited the bookstore in Salt Lake City that is operated by the Utah Lighthouse Ministries? If not, I think you would find a conversation with Sandra Tanner and her staff very interesting and informative. I have received their magazine, SALT LAKE CITY MESSENGER, for many years. I find the many commonalities between Adventism and Mormonism too obvious to miss (including the writings attributed to Joseph Smith and Ellen White). For example, both Ellen and Joseph used "Old English" in many key phrases to make it sound more authentic and Biblical--even though they never spoke in Old English in their daily conversations. Several months ago, two Mormon boys (missionaries) visited our home. In the course of our brief conversation, I mentioned the Tanner's online ministry. Immediately one of them said, "Yes, they are very bitter." So, even in their daily conversation, they use similar adjectives and phrases to depict former members as Adventists do. These Mormon boys were most likely informed about the Utah Lighthouse Ministries before they were sent to their mission location. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 404 Registered: 1-2003  |
Gilbert, you said the following, "I believe in my heart that the most powerful witness for truth is a happy Spirit-filled Christian." All I can say is AMEN Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3426 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, you stated the situation eloquently. It is the "must" of your leaving that creates the rift. Erik, the healing between the two groups really can only come when both "sides" of the situation are willing to walk in the light. Oh, there can be civility and respect, theoretically, but there really can be no complete healing as long as people refuse to investigate the light. As Paul said in 2 Cor. 6:14: "What fellowship can light have with darkness?" Now, many Adventists really are pursuing a relationship with Jesus. Those people may be initially offended by the exposure of their church by those who have left. I understandóI used to be offended. Offense, however, is not necessarily a thing to be avoided. Jesus did not avoid speaking truth out of sensitivity to the Jews' possible offense. Love on the part of those walking with Jesus is a command from the Lordóbut love and truth still produce offense in those who do not wish to see. Sometimes, though, the offense becomes a point of study and discovery. I don't think our goal is to "get along" as though our relationships with Jesus do not exist and have not changed anything. Our goal is to love our Adventist family and friends for Jesus. Frankly, our love often confuses them or makes them feel annoyedóbut that annoyance is not a reason to stop. And our love does not mean suppressing the truth when God gives us moments to speak. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1106 Registered: 10-2004  |
Erik, You wrote: "So how do we go about bridging the chasm between the two sides?" The chasm between the two sides cannot be bridged. Only when those on the other side come over to our side (Jesus Christ) can there be unity. In Christ, there is unity. But between those who are in Christ and those who are not in Christ, there can not be unity. Is this narrow-minded? Yes. The Way to eternal life is narrow. Jesus Christ is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 22, 2006) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2330 Registered: 3-2004  |
As our pastor said it a few weeks ago, the only way to bridge the chasm between a Christ follower and a non Christ follower, is with the cross of Jesus Christ. This is done individually and in God's time and not mine. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006 |
I've gone back, again, over Erik's original post, thinking over, does God hate....? Hate the people? I do not believe that. "But God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son...." "While we were yet sinners..." While we were still dead in our sins and knew him not, he loved us, sent Christ, speaks to us and woos us to him with his Holy Spirit, seeks us the lost ones out of the sheep pen, does whatever it takes--to the death--to reach us. He is hopelessly in love with us. We are his beloved, created for his joy. Scripture says that Christ endured the cross for the joy to come. We are that joy. I think of where it says God hates divorce and how that is an analogy of the seperation between humans and our Creator, formerly bonded-with God. The Rift, like an amputation, disconnection, torn apart from him. God hates that. Jesus openly wept more than once. He produced "loud cries and tears". The losses ripped through him like a knife with pain. He doesn't hate SDA's. He hates the lies, the loss, the 'darkness' Colleen speaks so clearly on. The Desolate Kingdom of No Hope. He hates Evil and what waste it has done to people. He loves his created people of all types. I think we do too or we wouldn't feel the dichotomy so very strongly. Any group who has a god of hatred towards others, except for themselves, is truly dangerous. Yet, it is the source which makes it so--Evil, which chains them. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God and is the *only* thing and way to break those chains. What did Jesus command us to do? Love one another and to pray, especially, to those who revile us, like they did to him, and to threaten/retaliate not, trusting the One, who judges fairly. It isn't easy, at times. Hating/resenting is easy. So, we depend 100% on Christ in us to love through us. Our God IS love Itself~ The Original~ May he flow through us all abundantly~ Cathy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis - I have not yet visited Utah Lighthouse Ministries although I would like to. With such a heavy concentration of Mormons here in the valley of 1.5 million people, we Christians have a real mission field! Christians make up about 5% of the population. If we think leaving Adventism is hard, I can't even fathom how hard it is for Mormons to leave Mormonism, and their huge family support systems. They typically have between 6-12 children, at each generation! It is a tremendous money machine for the Mormon Church -- $5.9 billion in annual gross income. They also don't pay any pastors or mortgages, etc. See http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no93.htm I find it especially interesting to see how the Mormon viewpoint on the supposed inferiority of black people came from Ellen White! How sad and far reaching. See http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/q45.htm Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1108 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, that is amazing, Gilbert. And yet Christian apologists use the Mormon teaching as evidence against them, and yet they refuse to use EGW's racism as evidence against the SDA church, when that's where the Mormon prophet got his teaching from! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 23, 2006) | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2005 |
Gilbert, Why would EGW make such statements about blacks ,when she was half and half? It seems like years ago I read something on her genelology that confirmed this. and that is one of the reasons she came to Battle Creek because she was more accepted here (that's where I live) and sojurnior truth(a former balck slave and activist of her time) welcomed her here. my husband has a therory that her classmate threw the rock at her because she was differnt and Im sure there was zero tolerence of childern who were differnt,and then her parents probably just homeschooled her after that because they loved her and didnt want kids bullying her any more. I have always wondered why the church has never mentioned her ansestory. my sister in law went from being a mormon fifith generation to a sda,now she is nothing. when she was mormon though it was tough on her in the early part of thier marriage and being in the family,she didnt want my inlaws reading uncle aruthrs bedtime stories to her kids,her kids I would say are agnostic now they witnessed alot of strife because of LDS vs SDA it was very sad,my husband and I tried to stay out of it. I havent told her yet that I'm out,I proabably should and I will. I used to think how could intelligent people believe in all the lies of Joe Smith,and the book of mormon and the gold plates etc. And I never even looked in my own back yard. But you know what my husband and I said we never heard of EGW growing up our familes never talked about her,and my kids will tell you they dont know much about her,I used to feel bad that I wasnt telling or reading more of her to them,now Im sooooo glad I didnt. We just talked about the love of Christ. But as you get older you begin to hear more of her from the puplit or at least know that what the pastor just said didnt come from the bible. What I used to hate about pathfinders for my kids is how much they were required to read about her for an honor. yuck is what I used to say to them. Yeah your right though Gilbert I cant imagine leaving the LDS it is way more dramatic. I have seen shows on how the polygamist familes of the sect and how they try and escape,or sometimes the boys are told to leave because they are a threat to the older men,so these young boys are on their own,all in the name of Jesus??what is wrong with these people!!! Dawn | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 757 Registered: 1-2003 |
EGW was of mixed race...now that you mention it...I can see it. Wow!!! She should be ashamed of the things she said about herself! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1109 Registered: 10-2004 |
The White Estate claims that "Ellen White's ancestry was of Anglo-Saxon origin"--they have even done studies on this issue (and have even hired professional genealogists!), just so they can say that EGW was not part black! http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-egw.html#genealogy Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 23, 2006) | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2005 |
wish I could say I beleive the the white estate..as pheeki mentioned you can see the characteistics of both races. to me it's no big deal so what if she was,just own up to it.. seems to me that there is a book about it ,a friend of mine has it I'll ask and let you know but I'm almost positive he bought thru the ABC Dawn | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 600 Registered: 4-2000 |
Interestingly, the last two Mormon missionaries to stop at my house told me that the Adventists had stolen the "health message" from them (e.g., coffee, tea, and alcoholic drinks were prohibited by Mormons long before Ellen White claimed having a "health reform" vision in 1863). Furthermore, I find it truly amazing that the largest growing segment of Adventism and Mormonism today consist of non-Caucasians in the Third World. Apparently, both of these religious groups are doing an extraordinary job in rewriting their denominational history. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2335 Registered: 3-2004 |
After perusing this thread and reading it a number of times, I decided to say something. Adventists are not dangerous!! It is the beliefs of the Adventist church that are dangerous because the attention is drawn away from Jesus Christ. Attention is given to the Sabbath, tithe paying, what one eats and a myriad of other non salvation issues. The issue that is important is glossed over and that is Jesus Christ-His birth, life, death, and most importantly, His resurrection and return to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. This is my 5 cents worth. God is so awesome that He should never be glossed over. Diana | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 407 Registered: 1-2003 |
Denis, I'm confused, did you mean the non-Caucasians in the Third World are doing an extraordinary job in rewriting their denominational history. ?? richard | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2005  |
Dennis said that mormons and adventists have in common two trends: both groups grows especially in the Third World, and both groups make great efforts to rewrite their denominational history. This two trends give the impression that both groups have something to hide and are ashamed of their past, and increase in number in the Third World, where people don't have access to the information about the history and events who marked the apparition and development of their church. People who know the adventist and mormon history, like many USA or Europe do, stay out of these groups, and the result is stagnation and decrease of membership | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2005 |
There is a fascinating website called "Recovery From Mormonism" at http://www.exmormon.org/ I find reading these stories very similar to those of ex-SDA's. Some very telling similarities exist. For example, both churches claim to be the true or remnant church. Most people that grow up in either church are taught that if they leave they will be doomed eternally. Both churches are very works oriented. When people leave either SDA or LDS it is very common for them to give up on religion in despair and just turn their backs on God. That is sad. DT | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 409 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jackob, thanks for your comments in reply. I have a follow up question. In my reading I understand that many mainline denominations are decreasing in number here in the US while the Christian message is growing much more rapidly in third world countries. This is evident in churches other than SDA or Mormons. Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
