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Wolfgang
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Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what I have heard from the pupit before is that the SDA church is doing what the gospel says and that is go and preach to all the nations and the SDA church has saturated that "market". because when that is done Christ will come.
Dawn
Wolfgang
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Post Number: 59
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what I have heard from the pupit before is that the SDA church is doing what the gospel says and that is go and preach to all the nations and the SDA church has saturated that "market". because when that is done Christ will come.
Dawn
Jackob
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Post Number: 110
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, I want to recommend you this article by RC Sproul ,http://www.modernreformation.org/rc01pelagian.htm,. He speaks about the pelagian captivity of the church, the fact that many protestant churches abandoned the reformed faith, opting for free will, and consequently diminishing the sovereign grace of the Lord.
When you turn in this direction, like most evangelical churches, you put first in importance the individual. You have now in focus the methods, how to make someone to make a choice for Jesus. And in this way the churches make them dependent on human methods, of psyhological factors, and the cumulative effect of these is that the church will grow in dependence of sociological factors, and the culture determines if the church will grow or will not grow.

In these churches the power of the gospel is lost, replaced by ecumenical, political activities. If this trend will not change, I'm concerned about the future of these churches. I don't want to leave SDA church for a church in which the power of the gospel is lost.

What makes the sda church differentand more dangerous? It is what DT said: it is common for people who leave SDA or LDS to give up entirely the christian faith, and turn back to God. This revelas the cultic face: when someone give up what he believed to be the only church, he give up God. When he is dissapointed by this one church he is dissapointed by God. When trust in church is equal to trust and faith in God, when the first disaapear the second will follow surely. It's a miracle when someone leave these churches and remain faithfully to God



Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3438
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said, Jackob.

I want to comment on one of your statements: "I don't want to leave SDA church for a church in which the power of the gospel is lost. "

I think it's important to remember that, as you leave the Adventist church, you are not leaving for another church. You are "coming into" the true church of Jesus Christ which is His body. While you may join a congregation (and I hope that you evevtually will!), you will never have to "join a church".

Some churches do bring people into membership in their denominations. Many, though, do not require membership specifically in the denomination in order to function in the congregation. Other, more congregational churches, may require local membership in order to hold church offices, etc., but that joining is more of a profession of faith in Jesus than a ritual of joining the "church".

This particualr area is one most former Adventists struggle with. It is really important to become involved in a Bible-teaching church even if one doesn't see eye-to-eye on all matters of eschatology, etc. If the true gospel is taught and Jesus and His word are the center of church's focus, one can grow and learn even if one has differences of opinion regarding non-central doctrines.

It's not necessary to leave the SDA church and go immediately into membership in another. It's quite alright to visit and "shop around", praying for God to reveal where He wants you to plant and grow.

You are so right about where pelagian heresy leads. That issue does underlie the dangerous sects such as SDA, JW, and LDS. And you're right that it's seeping into the Christian church at large as well. It's still important, however, to be in fellowship with other true believers.

I'm convinced that God calls His people (who often ARE in extremely Arminian congregations) deeper and deeper into Himself. As they respond to Him , they tend to become increasingly uncomfortable with the fairly shallow teaching many of these churches have.

I totally respect your decision not to leave Adventism for a church where the power of the gospel is lost. I guess my main caution is that you not see yourself as necessarily needing to "join" another church in the sense of becoming part of a new denominational identity. You are part of Christ's body nowówherever you may eventually worship and fellowship as the years go by!

I do enjoy your insights.

Colleen
Jackob
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Post Number: 111
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Colleen, I don't have words to thank you for what you make clear above. I almost forgot that my identity in Christ is no longer defined by membership in a church. What a powerfull and liberated truth! Wow, I cannot contain my joy, I need not to join a church, I'm complete in Christ. really Colleen, you make me very happy, because I see clearly how my new identity in Christ applies in this particular situation.

Surely I'll go and visit churches. I read and re-read several time the article of LeBron McBride in the Proclamation! and have been conviced that perfectionism can remain alive in being applied to what someone expects from a church. By the way, I hope that the new electronic version of Proclamation! will come soon.

Bottom line: fellowship with authentic believers, but not denominational identity. I wish, but it's only a wish, to be part of the baptist church of Spurgeon. A calvinist and simultaneously a baptist. Because I like most the baptist church here, in Romania.

But I discover recently that in Bucharest, my town is a Calvary Chapel. I discovered it only by internet, and planned to make a visit. I like pastor Mark Martin, and if this church is like his church, I will surely blessed.

But from what I read on this forum, Calvary Chapel take a stand against calvinism, and this makes me reluctant to attend. I will wrote a letter to the pastor of the church here in Romania and see what I'll do.






Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3439
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I understand your reluctance. Believe me when I say you must visit a church before you decide whether or not you can be blessed. It was, in fact, Mark Martin who said last weekend that in reality when we leave Adventism for Jesus, we are not so much identified by "leaving" as by the fact that we are "coming in" to the real body of Christ. (Very loose paraphrase!)

It's amazing how much Biblical expository preaching you will find even true Christian churches which do not necessarily espouse Reformed theology. If Christ is at the center, if the pastor and the church leadership is committed to preaching Christ and Him crucified, you will be amazed at what Biblical truth you will find there.

I listen sometimes to a couple of Calvary Chapel preachers on a Christian radio station out of Los Angeles. They do awesome expository preaching, and they clearly preach from a bottom line of God's sovereign control. I have learned from and been blessed by many of the sermons I've heard.

It's not like in Adventism or other cultic groups where the Arminian/Pelagian viewpoint is so strong ON TOP of the heretical foundation that the Bible is almost never clearly preached.

Visit and prayóGod already knows where you need to be to grow!

Colleen
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 291
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
perhaps it is a matter of semantics... but you made the following statement: "First of all, Iím still an adventist, Iím not officially a former. Even so, I know precisely that my days in adventist church are numbered. I understand that leaving the adventist church is a MUST, not an option. I have before me not two paths, but only one: to leave."
It seems to me that having already shed SDA beliefs, you would already be a former-SDA. Having your name on the SDA books is in no way an official definition of being an SDA. God sees the heart, not the church role books.
When we are in the service of God, we are defined by our relationship to Him, not by what other people, or even religious institutions, think of us.
I would echo Colleen, you are free, free in Christ. You are free to have your identity tied to Christ alone, not to a church group.
-tanya-
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,

I guess my greatest suprise has been that denominational affiliation isn't as strong in the body of Christ as in adventistm. I am still questioning and studying the whole doctrine of what happens to us when we die, and more importantly is there an eternal hell (I am almost at peace over this). Anyway, the Chistian & Missionary Alliance church I attend has a statement of belief, but there is a willingness to not quibble over items that are not a direct challenge to salvation. I am given the freedom to believe differently, while still being accepted.


I believe that my greatest requirement for a church is expository preaching for it allows God to speak truth to you without jumping over difficult passages or "proof texting" and not taking things in context.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1349
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
That article by R.C. Sproul you posted on Pelagianism is outstanding and is must reading. The doctrines of the Reformation are very important.

I do believe Chuck Smith is a great man of God, even though I disagree with him on many points of theology. I do have other problems with Calvary Chapels, but having said that if you find one in Bucharest that has good praise music and they teach the Bible in an expository fashion, then I think you will be blessed, even though they don't agree with what many of us have come to believe with regard to God's sovereignty. Also I found my wife would go with me to Chuck Smith, but she wouldn't go to other churches who I thought were theologically purer.

Stan
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 601
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

Thanks for your question. Jackob has already given you the correct answer. Your point is correct that many churches are currently growing in the Third World; however, for Adventism and Mormonism to likewise grow in these non-Caucasion countries shows their ability to hide part of their history which was largely negative toward colored people. Remember, the General Conference cafeteria was once segregated as well.

During the Civil Rights Movement in the United States during the 1960s, official Adventism was not on the side of civil rights advocates. The GC was very nervous and critical of the black SDA pastors and members who boldly dared to differ. It was only the black leadership in the Regional Conferences that wanted things to remain the same so that their jobs would remain secure and their job pool would not diluted with white leadership.

I worked in the South, as a SDA publishing leader, during this difficult time in American history. Sometimes the National Guard helicopters were hovering overhead as I was working with literature evangelists. I really felt that the Civil War was still being fought in many ways when I was there. I cannot even put into print what I actually experienced (simply because it would involve repeating unsavory, racist words to fully explain).

For example, most white SDA churches in the South, at that time, did not welcome any African-American people--not even as visitors. My wife still remembers seeing the separate water fountains in the South. Indeed, Ellen White was just plain wrong when she said that "Colored people should not seek to be equal with white people."

Dennis Fischer
Randyg
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Username: Randyg

Post Number: 128
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not believe Adventists are dangerous, anymore than any other group. I do believe that often times the Gospel of Christ gets lost in the emphasis placed on trying to be a "Good" Adventist. From my experience Adventism for many has been a case of "Majoring in Minors". "Behavior above Relationship" . "Tradition over Discernment" "Blind Adherence above Spiritual Integrity" "Letter of the Law above the Spirit of the Law". "Denomination over Conscience"

This does not make the individual Adventist dangerous, but I truly believe it diminishes Spiritual Growth.

The bottom line in any religious organization has to be,

1)Is my relationship with Christ growing because I am a part of this church?

2)Does this church encourage honest and open theological discussion?

3) Does adherence to the traditional fundamental beliefs preclude the role of personal conscience?

4)Must an individual's spiritual integrity be compromised, to conform to the groups dogmatic norms.

If any church diminishes an individual's ability to grow in Jesus, then I think there is danger there.

Growing in Grace,

Randy
Anotherseeker
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Username: Anotherseeker

Post Number: 47
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"COLOURED PEOPLE SHOULD NOT SEEK TO BE EQUAL WITH WHITE PEOPLE"

Where was this stated please and are there any other examples of her racism?
Javagirl
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Username: Javagirl

Post Number: 164
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

anotherseeker,

Try this link from Jeremy:
http://www.geocities.com/whitemountainchat/egwbigotry.html

It was the nail in the coffin for me re Ellen:
Jeremy's posts calling SDA's a cult used to make me mad. I had to at least consider some of his opinions after seeing this page...

It still makes me mad. I found my original response to the first time I saw this link....

From Sept 05
Jeremy,
I'm so angry reading your web page that I cant even post a response...I had to start over. Maybe I can respond later. Im really in shock!
Such blatant racism and other bigotry. Im just in shock.
And I guess no Ellen follower can pray for the people of the SDA church I attend, plenty of sinners there, and mixed marriages, and "colored" people on the pulpit, teaching classes to lily whites, and yes, even the "ignorant" poor...and of course those who dont tithe...and those who indulge their appetites at potluck...
You shoulda seen how quickly the caffeinated coffee was consumed (by church memebers)during the purpose driven life campaign. So those members cant be helped either. And heathens from nominal churches were accidently invited to those sessions, and to revelation seminars!

Maybe I need to alert the secretary, so that she can take the names of the sick "undeserving" sinners off of the prayer list in the bulletin. Or we could ask them to stand up, give their histories, and "qualify" themselves for prayer....
Oh thats enough! I could go on an on.
JavaGirl < dont pray for me, i dont qualify....

Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 602
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goldenbear,


Regarding eternal punishment, we can fully trust the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:46: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (NASB). The intentional parallelism in this passage is too obvious to miss. Importantly, this statement by Jesus completely agrees with the other Bible passages on this topic as well. (see also Matthew 10:28; Rev.20:4,10)

"Common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate the crowning jewels of his creation. Far from rubbing us out, He graciously provides us the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices...Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to his nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. And that is precisely what hell is." (Excerpts from THE BIBLE ANSWER BOOK by Hank Hanegraaff) Clearly, God has already demonstrated his quarantine preference in the case of Satan and his angels as well as with Adam and Eve.

Dennis Fischer
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 145
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to admit Dennis that is a new wrinkle. I have often thought that maybe we just don't understand the concept of smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever. I know that God's way is not mine, but I have come to completly trust God.

We just got through going through Job and I understand it so much better. Job was so cognizant of his position with God that he couldn't be shaken, even when presented with the most eloquent religious observations of the day (The way I read the three friends dialogue, If chapter 1 wasn't in the book, they would have been the heros, and Job the goat, except for the last chapter)

I am impressed with the correlation to where we should be with our position with Jesus. Assured, comforted, and unmovable.

Quarantine, I will have to give that some thought... One of those things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 177
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Javagirl -- another equally interesting link from the same site is http://www.geocities.com/whitemountainchat/egwgnostic.html
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 307
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis - The Adventists explained hell so well to me, and I've understood it that way for so long, it is very difficult for me to fully grasp the truth on this matter. I want to see it exactly as the bible states. Your explanation is very helpful.

I'm still trying to grasp the "a God of Justice" part of eternal hell. A thought that I had on it is perhaps some who are in hell will be punished worse than others for what they deserve. Just as those of us who are saved, some will have more than others according to what we deserve.

Javagirl - I remember when I started with the church, a lot of people were discussing Ellen White, to justify some of her writing. Like, well, those were the times. But really, though we hate to say it, there is some truth to that. Unfortunately, our country in the past had many very openly racist people. Many prominent people in our history books that were white spoke poorly of people of color. As for the wealthy, there are those who have spoken as she did in her day and some now who aren't any better.

But the more I read her writing, it becomes clear to me that what Ellen White was about was "Control." Her writing was about controlling peoples thoughts and actions and doing it in the most manipulative way, saying it is from "God." Putting herself in a position of "Power" or as a messenger of "God" through visions.

Lynne

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Heretic
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Username: Heretic

Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,

Thanks so much for the link to that great Sproul article. This is exactly what our non-denominational church unabashedly teaches on a weekly basis in classes and from the pulpit, cut out of the John Mac Arthur mold. I forwarded it on to our pastor for that reason.

Thanks again and what a terrific find that was!

Heretic
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding aspects of this thread exploring how to relate to Adventism, I have run across two interesting resources that relate to similar issues between Christianity and Mormonism. Since the two cultures have so much in common, I thought there might be an application to how we might approach Adventism objectively and compassionately.

The first resource is a link at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3750/Motivation.html which discusses


quote:

"I believe that my approach that I have presented in the above is more reasonable and effective than many other Evangelicals in the ministry, because I look at LDS persons as intelligent human beings and donít try to belittle them in their rationale. I try to approach their logic rationally without expecting them to see things exactly the same as me. My goal is not to win them over but to present them with enough information that they can think for themselves without finding it necessary to cram my point of view down their throat. I respect them and give in when I believe that they have presented a good argument and donít see that I am compromising what I believe in doing so.

Mormons donít deserve to be treated with contempt and hostility as if they were a ìpawn of Satanî. They deserve respect and sincere answers to their objections, not dogmatic unreasonable attacks. Realistically, the ìdog eat dogî approach to LDS persons, does more harm then good, and, like anyone else that gives reasonable objections back to Evangelical (Orthodox Christianity), they deserve reasonable answers."




I found this article to have many constructive ideas.

The second resource relates to a new book I just purchased. Earlier today I stopped by a local Christian Bookstore and noticed a poster for a new book called "I Love Mormons - A New Way to Share Christ with Latter-day Saints" by David L. Rowe, Ph.D. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065224) The preface to this 191-page book includes the following excellent statements:


quote:

"Mormonism is an experiential religion. People who want to argue with Mormons about the teachings and texts of their religion seriously miss the opportunity to communicate."

"Something is wrong with witness when one consistently wins arguments but not souls. The habits of the Mormon heart are not reshaped by confrontation with the gospel but by confession of the gospel."

"For over a century and a half, evangelicals have written books condemning Mormon belief and practice. Not surprising, these books engender a style of evangelism focused on winning arguments, not people."

"What a fresh, creative approach. David (the author) ... demonstrates a key understanding of Mormonism.: it is not just another religion, another cult, but a culture. He does this without any compromise to the teachings of historic Christianity but displays a genuine love and respect for Mormons. From my own experiene of pastoring a church in Utah for 20 years, I can't emphasize strongly enough that this is such an important concept to grasp if one is to be effective in relating to them."




While I have not yet read the book in depth, some of the subtitles have already caught my attention, and caused me to think about those values Mormons hold in common with Adventists.


quote:

Mormon Social Glue: Five Core Values
1. A solid work ethic
2. Economic conservatism
3. A strong emphasis on the family
4. A strong emphasis on clean and healthy living
5. Cooperation

101 Laboratory -- The So-Whats of Discussing Theology with Mormons
- Making Theology Count
- The Ins and Outs of Discussing Theology with Mormons
- Missionaries at Your Door
- "I'm Thinking of Becoming a Mormon"
- "I'm Questioning My Mormon Beliefs"
- "What Did You Think of What Happened at the _____?"
- Four Door Closers
- A Living Example

Mormons in Transition
- Family values
- Programs for all ages
- A sense of community
- The ring of authority
- "A demanding religion"
- Health and wealth
- Experiential "truth"
- The cradle of familiarity




Each chapter has an ending section titled "For Discussion and More".

There is also a section on 'Learning to Speak "Mormonese"

The following chapter has many good sections.


quote:

Concluding the Journey -- Is Your Church a Safe Harbor?
- Security and familiarity will be lost
- Anger and bitterness may set in
- Threats and negative reactions from LDS friends, family members, and church officials may dog your steps
- Where do you fit in traditional Christianland, anyway?
- Just what do you believe, and where did you get it from?
- A profound loneliness can settle on you
- Bring LSD friends to your church as soon and as often as you can, to integrate them as fully as possible
- Help them past their anger so broken hearts replace bitter ones
- Accept, accept, accept!
- Be prepared for lots of questions and little commitment from trnsitioning Mormons
- Offer and encourage involvement in teaching ministries, especially ones that provide basic biblical grounding




I would recommend this book to anyone trying to reach out to Adventists. Since the Adventist culture has so many similarities to the Mormon culture, this book also can help each of us to better understand our own emotions as transitioning Adventists, and how to reach out to our friends and relatives still within the Adventist system.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Javagirl
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Username: Javagirl

Post Number: 165
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynne,
you said,
"Javagirl - I remember when I started with the church, a lot of people were discussing Ellen White, to justify some of her writing. Like, well, those were the times. But really, though we hate to say it, there is some truth to that. Unfortunately, our country in the past had many very openly racist people. Many prominent people in our history books that were white spoke poorly of people of color. As for the wealthy, there are those who have spoken as she did in her day and some now who aren't any better."


I had some of that defensive thinking as well. However, Ellen claimed that God spoke directly to her to tell her those things, and to "inspire" her to preach that to others. God is eternal. His great truths are not influenced by a few decades or centuries of racism. Jesus was the one who crossed racial lines and cultural norms to reach out to the socially outcast. Think of the "woman at the well". Was Jesus even caucasian?? I dont think so. If he were on this earth in human form today, would HE be unfit for leadership? Scripture tells us that we are all his children, despite our human birth.
Yes there were other Christian leaders who were racist-- Thankfully there were also men and women of God who cried out in protest to the racist practices and mentality.

And if we could only pray for the worthy, then no one--NOT ONE--would recieve prayer.

I guess we all have our buttons. This one is mine. I am not guiltless here. I have had racial prejudice and cultural bias in my history. God has convicted me of this. I do not for a minute however claim that God planted those racial prejudices in my heart--No he is/has removed them.

JavaGirl

(yes, I also see the contol factor, probably was part of the attraction for me lol )

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