| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1366 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well, you can see the trends. Mainstream Christianity loves the SDA church. Lee Strobel, the author of a very good book which I recommend, and I am sure most of you have heard of as well called "Case for Christ" is joining hands with the SDA church in LLU's annual celebration of their medical alumni called APC. If anyone is in the Loma Linda area, and would have time, or would want to go hear what he has to say to SDAs, then you won't want to miss Friday night vespers to welcome in the Sabbath with Lee Strobel at the University church at 7 pm, on March 3. I do know that Lee Strobel is a close friend to Hank Hanegraaf, and I am sure Hank has given him his blessing. Not too long ago, John Stott spoke at that church. It does look like the University church is making great efforts to do good PR with the mainstream evangelical community. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3467 Registered: 12-2003  |
We have been listening to Randy Roberts' (senior pastor at LLU church) sermons on Galatians. The first four sounded wonderfulóbut last weekend he revealed his direction. He was discussing justification and that In Christ we are justified. He actually quoted from Ellen (he rarely does this) to describe justification. It was one of her more benign quotesóI believe quoting from her was a way of reassuring people he wasn't "going anywhere". He concluded by asking what impact being justified "in Christ" would have on lives. He asked a series of "What effect will it have on...?" questions. One was, "What effect will it have on the way we worship?" He answer was, we worship as Jesus did; the Bible says He went to the synagogue every Sabbath as was His custom. The last "What effect..." question was about how we live. His answer was that we live as Jesus lived. We follow His example. We all know the problems of using Jesus as and "example" instead of His being our "substitute". Further, Jesus was born of a woman under the law. He had to live by the law until His death ended the old covenant and ushered in the new. One of the reasons God equipped Paul to explain how the new covenant worked (Ephesians 3:8-9) was that only AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection and ascensionóand only AFTER the outpourng of the Holy Spirit would Jesus' fulfillment of all the OT shadows be clearly seen. Another big problem with this last sermon was that there was no explanation of what it really means to be "in Christ" or how one gets to be "there". When one speaks of being "in Christ" to people who know about Him but don't necessarily KNOW Him, the words are confusing and frustrating. I keep praying... Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 608 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, I understand that John Stott, a liberal Anglican theologian, has embraced a conditionalist/soul sleep view (or some version of it). Some months ago, I emailed his office on the East Coast about this matter. I received a lengthy and detailed letter, from a staffer, telling me that their staff is not sufficient for a proper response to my question. With the increasing pressure of liberalism, we can expect to see more religious leaders embracing views that do not make people uncomfortable. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1370 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, I have referred before to a very fascinating and prophetic sermon preached 30 years ago by J. Vernon McGhee, where already in his day liberalism had set in, and he actually said he believes the Bible teaches that the entire visible organized church will become apostate before Christ returns. We have talked a lot about some trends going on in the evangelical church where entertainment and pop Psychology replaces careful systematic Bible study. That is a recipe for all kinds of false teaching and liberalism to invade the church--which of course is happening. I am really bothered by some strong trends recently to abandon the Reformation faith of Jesus, Paul, Luther, and Calvin. A recent major book by a so-called evangelical scholar all but called the Reformation dead and irrelevant. That is why you see a very strong opposite trend by a minority who want to restore the great truths of the Reformation faith. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3474 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, I have also heard the same thing. In fact, an Adventist doctor in this area who is an avid "fan" of All Souls Church in London where John Stott is on the staff, was instrumental in bringing John Stott to the LLU Church a few months ago. We saw the DVD of his talk, and essentially he appealed to the "world mission" mentality of the Adventists to make a plea for his own mission program. Ironically, it seems, Stott is considered a significant evangelical theologian in most circles, not primarily a liberal one. This soul sleep/conditionalist issue, though, does make me wonder. I can see how a person with his views would be easily deceived by Adventismóespecially when they speak in typical evangelical terms. While he gave a reasonable talk on missions and reaching the world, etc., his visit had overtones of fundraising. I don't mean to overstate this element, but the meeting did end up promoting his program. I found myself wondering if he had any idea that the apparently accepting congregation to whom he was speaking had probably only small interest in his mission since Adventists don't share a global mission vision with the rest of Christianity. The Adventist church is probably the least likely place to raise support for missions. When you have your "own" missions program, funded by your own church, why would you become involved with some independent mission outreach? I remember how FOREIGN the idea of locally supported global missions was to me when we first entered the body of Christ. Missions had completely bored me previously; their main attraction was TRAVEL! I'm quite sure that even the evangelical Adventists do not share the passion for missions found among the bigger body of Christ. Stott seems completely unaware of the true nature of Adventismóand indeed, he and the "evangelical" Adventists at LLU would appear to mesh well. I agree that there is an increasing "pressure of liberalism", as you put it, Dennis, to make Christianity more palatable and inclusive. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1382 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just some follow-up on my initial post above. My SDA mother and former SDA dad both went to hear Lee Strobel at the Friday night service. They were thrilled with his message, and I believe God has used this event for His glory. It reinforces in my mom's eyes the fact that other evangelical Christians are just as saved as any SDA who has been saved by God's mercy and grace. This was also an opportunity to get Strobel's great book "Case for Christ" out to people who really needed it. In that book Strobel clearly makes the case that one of the strongest evidences of the Resurrection is that Jews gave up the Sabbath and started worshipping on the day of Resurrection. This is a miracle in itself. So, hopefully, enough SDAs will buy this book and see this important truth. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1314 Registered: 7-2003  |
Stan, don't you find, though, that SDAs seem able to gloss over non-SDAs "error" about the sabbath when they are "right" about other things rather than consider that possibly SDAs are "wrong" about the sabbath (or whichever doctrine seems undermined at the time)? I remember B listening to David Jeremiah's program when he went through 1 Corinthians. And B thought DJ had a great grasp on the book...except where he disagreed with adventism. I found it fascinating that he could easily believe he understood scripture every where except where it conflicted adventism without ever contemplating DJ was also correct in his teaching at those sections and adventism was wrong. I've seen him (and other SDAs) say the same thing elsewhere and I just shake my head. I'm not trying to challenge your postive comments, I have just become so skeptical that any SDA is going to be swayed by anyone who disagrees with adventism, least of all someone they already consider in great error because of their "sundaykeeping". I have gone from trying to share everything under the sun to show the conflicts, to a "why bother" attitude towards anyone SDA. Unless and until God removes the scales, the person isn't budging, and I'm left to contemplate why he removes the scales from the eyes of some, but not others...but I know not a single word I say (even purely quoting scripture) will influence them because they're so "convinced" they're right. Have I just become too cynical? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3494 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, I have also observed what you describe. I believe that the cognitive dissonance, however, between non-SDAs knowing Scripture and being alive in the Lord and Adventists' own lack of joy and peace does gestate in some people's minds and hearts for a period of time and eventually yield a new life. This ruminating, however, usually takes a long time, and it surely doesn't happen in everyone! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2360 Registered: 3-2004  |
God removes the scales from peoples eyes when He knows it the right time to do so. He did not remove the scales from my eyes back in 1993 when my son shared with me what a former SDA pastor shared with him. I thank God I did not criticize him but just told him that he should pray about it. It took God another 11 years before I finally let go of those lens. He had many things to teach me before I could let go. I thank you God for being so patient with me. You are bringing Your sheep into Your fold one at a time. It is done in Your way and in Your time. Thank you, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1388 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melissa, The gospel is to be preached to everyone, and God's Word proclaimed. It is then the Holy Spirit's job to bring someone to faith. SDAs are no different from any other group who need to hear the gospel proclaimed. Lee Strobel proclaimed a clear gospel message, and it was well received. I say we should all rejoice! Since we have had so many disagreements in the past over Rick Warren's book "Purpose Driven Life", I am now heartily recommending one of Warren's associate pastor's book. Strobel has long been associated with both Willow Creek and Saddleback. But, "Case for Christ" by Strobel should rank as one of those Christian classics. But does PDL rank as a true classic work based on good research and good Biblical exegesis? Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1320 Registered: 7-2003 |
I have 3 of Strobel's books, case for Christ, case for faith and case for a creator. The books aren't even in the same category. The target audiences of the two books are entirely different. Though there are certainly challenges with some of RWs scripture usage, you cannot deny that scripture says God has a purpose for us and our lives. I think He wants us involved in missions and ministries and reaching out to others. I don't have a problem with the principles the book talks about. It's not a theological thesis about God, as Strobel's is. It's not a defense or apolegetic of the faith. To the extent that it is trying to motive the 80% of the church population to get off dead center and engage in some sort of ministry and actively participate in the body of Christ, I think it has value. How many people come to church to be "fed", then get up and walk out raising not a finger to do any of the many "jobs" in the church or ever involving themselves in any group Bible study? If the book has motivated someone to "start" studying scripture, was it of value? It is not perfect, there is absolutely some sloppy use of scripture and I think it would have been better if he had had no Biblical reference than to take things out of context as he has. Neither is it heretical, though. I don't think the principles it strives to teach are contrary to scripture, even if a specific verse is out of context. My friends would not consider me a great supporter of PDL. But neither do I think it is heretical or RW the cause of the decline of the faithful in America. I don't give him that much power, neither do I hear it when I personally hear him speak. Maybe he just hides it well. I'm pretty anti-gossip. Even last night, when I was reading Romans 13, it seems gossip is a pretty negative thing. I've been the object of it before about my daughter and when my ex decided to quit going to church. It's no fun. I take someone's first hand experience over some third party's opinion. And I know too many with first hand positive experiences to ignore. You said Strobel works with RW, so I'm assuming that's accurate. They say you shall know them by their fruits...is Lee Strobel an exception of RWs ministry? or is it possible others like him exist there too? And if others exist, is it remotely possible that growing active and mature Christians really is a goal, whether it's achieve yet or not, maybe in spite of PDL? If RW has proven he doesn't care about the gospel or he's changing what the gospel is, let's see it. But I've heard him present the gospel and it gels with what Lee Strobel says very clearly. If Lee Strobel is one of the pastor's at Saddleback, I'd go there in a heartbeat to hear him, even singing Hawaiian style music in shorts. That's not a blanket endorsement of everything there...but neither do I condemn something merely because RW is associated with it. I haven't seen the evidence it's justified. But that's merely my opinion, and really has little value in the grand scheme of things  . | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1391 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Melissa, And a smiley right back to you. We have discussed PDL enough to last awhile. At least I was hoping to show you that I wasn't completely biased against all things Seeker. Your opinion is very important as is everyone's opinion here, and without differences of opinion, a forum would be dull. Thanks again, Stan |
