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Archive through March 02, 2006Mrcato20 3-02-06  6:22 am
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Melissa
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mrcato, my experiences mirror yours....but I was also raised in the baptist church. In my current church, the pastor says if anyone has any decisions they would like to make public now is the time to do so, and we sing one chorus of one song. After that, it's communion time. If there are still people at the front being prayed with or whatever, we may extend it to a second verse, but the pastor never "begs" people to come forward. We have had services of prayer time at the end, and while music is being sung, the elders are at the front and people can go to one of them and ask for prayer. It's not "Biblical", but is it wrong????

It is a bit of a conflict to me to say that just because the Bible doesn't specifically say to do something that it is wrong to do it. That's the same logic that says it's wrong to worship on Sunday....because the Bible doesn't say to do it. Our church has a preschool...now the Bible doesn't say the church should have a preschool....so it's unBiblical to have a preschool...does that equally mean it's wrong? It's one thing for someone to do something the Bible specifically speaks against, it's something else to do something the Bible is silent about. If the Bible doesn't condemn it, I guess I'm confused why someone else would. And who chooses what gets to be condemned and who doesn't? It's just like SDAs condemning worship on Sunday because no where does scripture command it. Neither does scripture command Wednesday night activities, but most churches I know have some sort of midweek activity going on. Shouldn't those be wrong too?

My 2 cents.....
Raven
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO, it wouldn't be wrong for a church to do as Mrcato and Melissa have described, since it's not in a manipulative way. However, I think it's very easy to forget that God gets all the credit from beginning to end. It's all His work in us, and the altar call should be seen as just an acknowledgement of God's work. Personally, I'm more comfortable without them, because it does remind me too much of the manipulative ones all formers have been exposed to.
Ratthedd
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've never been comfortable with altar calls but could never pinpoint the source of my discomfort until the last few years. To me, altar calls come across as nothing more than a public boast about your own righteousness and that goes completely against the message Jesus taught about the Pharisees' public prayers. The preachers I've seen use this ploy have all seemed to do it as a control tactic, and those gullable enough to buy into it fall into three categories: 1. Those who really are repentant and feel a need for a closer relationship with God, 2. Those, like the Pharisees, who quickly respond to prove how much they love God, 3. Those who get up just to get the charlatan preacher to finish up his act.

Of those three groups, only the first truly is looking for help and these people will be just as apt to meet with the preacher when the sermon is over. All the preacher needs to say is that he'll be waiting in the back of the sanctuary after the service and offer assistance to anyone desiring it. No altar call is needed to help this group.

The glory seekers realy need help but they're too blind to see it, and the last group could care less. No altar call is going to help either of these two groups.

Perhaps my heart is hard, but the whole idea of altar calls and public displays of righteousness make me want to retch.

- Erik.
Pheeki
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My pastor never ends the service without an alter call...and every week 2-3 people go down and get saved...and the whole church is weeping as well as the newly saved.

It's never been meant for repenting for those already saved...it's purely for the unsaved in the audience.

Believe me, by the time my pastor gets through with you...if you weren't saved when you came in, you will be before you leave.
Javagirl
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really appreciate the offer to "come to the alter to pray" after the service at the church I have been attending. This is offered each week, and lately I eagerly participate more often than not. I dont see it as a public repentance and redidication time. I also dont have to feel like everyone is staring at me wondering what terrible behavior I have been engaging in.
There is something to be said about a public statement of belief, and sometimes an "alter call" may provide that. I agree that it can be done in a way that is non manipulative. I really dont see the scriptural mandate for regular re-dedication and rebaptism.
For some, rebaptism has a special significance, especially if the first one was not a statement of faith in Jesus. I would not want to judge someone's motives, or hinder someone who felt called to do so.
For me, redidication was a periodic event, and the focus was all wrong as described in the article above.
Praise God, he has delivered me from the endless cycle of self-sanctification efforts and failures.
JavaGirl
Ratthedd
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Javagirl,

If you're getting a blessing from the altar calls then please don't let my one-sided opinion get in your way.

The last paster we had in my wife's church had the weekly alter call to the point of being beligerant. Is was very alarming to see him standing there in the midst of the entire congregation, who were almost violently coerced into going up front, all kneeling in a cirlce facing the pastor. I questioned who they were worshipping, God or Mr. A. R.?

- Erik.
Jackob
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found an interesting article about altar call, http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/decision.html I think that reading it will clear many questions and give answers about altar call. The problem is the fact that nobody can read the heart and consider those who responded to altar call Ñsavedî, much more encouraging them to believe that, because they has made a decision for Christ, they are saved. Only a life changed, which takes time to be seen and recognized is a valid motive to consider that the person is really saved. Iíll quote from the article,

ÑIt is frequently said that a man who has made a decision with little evidence of a change of life may be a 'carnal' Christian who needs instruction in holiness, or if the same individual should gradually lose his new-found interests, the fault is frequently attributed to lack of 'follow-up,' or prayer, or some other deficiency on the part of the Church. The possibility that these marks of worldliness and falling away are due to the absence of a saving experience at the outset is rarely considered; if this point were faced, then the whole system of appeals, decisions and counseling would collapse, because it would bring to the fore the fact that change of nature is not in man's power, and that it takes much longer than a few hours or days to establish whether a professed response to the gospel is genuine. But instead of facing this, it is protested that to doubt whether a man who has 'accepted Christ' is a Christian is tantamount to doubting the Word of God, and that to abandon 'appeals' and their adjuncts is to give up evangelism altogether."
Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apparently, the Apostle Peter's "altar call" took place without an actual altar when about three thousand people were convicted to be baptized into Christ within one day (see Acts 2:41). This successful "altar call" has never been replicated in Christian history to my knowledge. There wasn't even an electronic organ softly playing "Just As I Am" in the background.

Interestingly, Charles Finney was born in upstate New York--commonly known as the "burned-over district" due to its many social, intellectual, and religious movements during the nineteenth century. Finney helped create the so-called "Oberlin theology" at Oberlin College with its emphasis on perfectionism and free will. A Millerite preacher once addressed the faculty and students at Oberlin College. They continue to be eccentric and liberal to this day. In 1970, Oberlin made the front page of Life magazine by being the first US college to have coed dormitories.

Also, Aurora University in Illinois, founded in 1893 by the Advent Christian Church, has authentic Millerite papers and charts on display in their museum collections. Want to see what some of them looked like? Check out these links: http://www.cornerstonemag.com/cart/millerite-art/ and http://www.cornerstonemag.com/cart/img/millerite/fig_3.jpg .

Dennis Fischer
Heretic
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is another (I hope) helpful article regarding alter calls that addresses the emotionalism and confusion that can take place with them as well as repentance and belief which may be lacking in many cases:

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/mission/missionthinking/altar_call_evangelism_paul_alexander/

Heretic
Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anybody know why some threads extend over the margins?

Dennis Fischer

Riverfonz
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of interesting responses to the altar call. I don't see anything unbiblical about invitations to come to Christ as long as it doesn't involve some public display.

Jackob,
That is an excellent link that is archived now by John Reisinger www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index017.htm on definite atonement. He has another article on his site that is excellent on Free-will vs. the true religion Free Grace
www.soundofgrace.org/jgr/index004.htm

Javagirl,
Also now archived is the article by Steve McVey you linked to on gracewalk. I checked out that site. He is recommending a lot of dubious reading material, so even though that article seems very good as you presented, I would have to issue a caution about who he recommends reading. Did you get that link from a previously posted site called Sovereign Grace Ministries, which is connected with C.J. Mahaney? Just curious.

Heretic,
Another great article on the problems with the altar call.

Stan
Javagirl
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Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Stan, I got the link from a sermon I heard on the radio, and I have really appreciate the daily devotional there.

Some have told me that this is dubious reading material on this site too. :-). Right now I am really enjoying my freedom to read what I want! In fact, the defiance in me is loving the freedom to read all kinds of things--Patricia Cornwell for instance! Yes, the Bible is my primary source, and you know I appreciate your input, as I often ask for it--but I couldnt resist!

As for this sunday sabbath...apparently its quite a movement. A new book about Sabbath Rest was published and placed prominately in Christian bookstores. Someone "in the know" mentioned to me today about ways (including sermon contests among other things) that certain organizations go about promoting excitement about a topic. This can result in tons of articles written, and attention on cerain books published. I had never thought about all that before....sigh.
Lets hope its a passing phase, until someone publishes another book they want to make into a bestseller. Oh what a cynic I am.

JavaGirl
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lest we all forget...we are saved by accepting Christ and professing it with our mouth. (Romans 10:4) You don't get any more saved as you go along. You are saved the minute you believe. Alter call or no alter call...

the article Jackob posted stated this...

...and that it takes much longer than a few hours or days to establish whether a professed response to the gospel is genuine.

How do we determine if a professed response to the gospel is genuine? That isn't for us to determine in my opinion...behavior isn't always an indication...we are still sinners, but saved sinners! So how do we determine? Did this guy who wrote the article go on to explain?

Praise the Lord the Lamb was worthy, cause I'm not!
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking some more about this and I think of the "by faiths"...

by faith Abraham left his home...
by faith Noah cut timber and built a boat...
by faith Jacob blessed his sons...
by faith Rahab didn't betray the spies...
by faith Moses' parents hid him in the rushes...
by faith Moses left the comfort of Egypt...
by faith the COI walked across the sea on dry ground...
by faith the people marched around Jericho...


By faith I responded to the alter call and got out of my comfy pew and walked...
Jackob
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The resposne is determined to be genuine if the fruits of the Holy Spirit are seen. Of course, Pheeki, we can be deceived even if we watched the behavior of the professed believer for a long time. There is no 100% guarantee. But if we cannot say that a profession of faith is genuine even after a long period of time, how much more we cannot say the same after only a short time, let's say one prayer, one decisional moment.

Also, because we cannot judge after a very short time, we cannot negate the salvation of somebody who responded to an altar call. Pheeki, I'm sorry if I gave this impression, that, if someone responded to an altar call, this automatically makes his or her profession something which we must doubt, or negate. We cannot pronounce someone saved or unsaved after an altar call.

This is the problem: after an altar call, only on the proof of profession itself, the pastor assures the professed believers that they are saved. And the new professed believer is taught that to doubt his conversion is to doubt the word of Christ. On what grounds? On the ground of the profession of faith. Based only on this proof the pastor gives the assurance of salvation. But if you cannot be sure 100% that a person is saved even after a long period of time, how could you give the person 1005 assurance that he or she is saved after only a minute?

And, after the pastor gave the assurance, and sustains that to doubt the salvation of the person who responded to the altar call means to doubt the Word of Christ, if the professed believer live a sinful life, the pastor is forced to sustain his assurance in spite of the evidence that the person is still unconverted. And, if someone is not converted, the work of the Holy Spirit to convict him of his sin is seen as the work of Satan, who, in this perspective, work against the Word of God. This is what the professed believer is teached, to see all doubts about his salvation as contrary to the Word of God and Holy Spirit.

On what grounds? Based only on the professed decision. The decision became the assurance of salvation, the ground of salvation. Of course, all genuine believers exercised faith in Christ. But they not decided to be born again. This is the problem: if itís in the power of man to decide to be saved, to be born again, all sincere decisions for Christ results in salvation. In this situation the preacher can truly give the assurance of salvation. But, the reality is that we, sinners, are spiritually dead. For us, the solution is resurrection. To be born again, to be saved, means to be spiritually resurrected. And as nobody can decide to be physically resurrected, so in the spiritual life. Lazarus responded to Christís call after Christ gives him life, and his answer was the proof, the result that he, who was dead, was made alive by Christ. The decision of the genuine believer, the faith, the repentace, are the proofs that he is already born again, he is already saved.

In my life I choosed Christ many times, with all sincerity. I invited Him to be my Saviour and Lord, and I mean it with all my heart. I longed to be free from sin and to serve Him. But my life never changed for me, and I almost give up in despair. I will be in the same condition even after 100 years, if God has not given me his grace. He changed my life, not I. Not because I loved Him, but because He loved me. Like a favourtie text of Maritn Luther,

Romans 9:16 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wasn't upset with you...I was just questioning the article because I think it is by faith that you believe you are saved no matter what.

If behavior keeps or loses salvation for me, I am lost...I sin on a daily basis...sometimes only in my mind, well most of the time only in my mind...but never the less...I sin all the time.

Salvation is not based on us, it's based on Him. We get to accept what Jesus did or not. There are many who do not.

Have I changed becuase I have been set free? Yes. Do I catch myself still worrying (a sin) yes! Am I lost? no.

Our past, present and future sins are forgiven...we shouldn't abuse this gift, but we do.

Thanks for the lively chat!!!
Windmotion
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a few random thoughts. I used to feel bad when I was much younger when a pastor would give an altar call and no one or very few people came forward. I thought I could tell the preacher was disappointed, like he had preached a bad sermon or something.

As far as the altar call and the decision, I tend to think of it as the parable of the sower who goes out to sow his seed. Some of the seed falls on dry ground and ends up withering. So who's fault is it the ground is dry? Maybe it is the church's responsibility to water the ground.

Oh, and my church, for all of its faults, does not do altar calls. We have a prayer corner up front with a candle burning where people can go at any time they want and pray. And the pastor always reminds us he is available after the service for anyone who wants to pray with him.

Conversationally,
Hannah
Willy430
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have thought of these kinds of things for quite a while. The bottom line appears to be what we think is the nature of Gods saving grace. Our opinion is reflected in how we think God deals with those whom we consider suspect. You will note I'm not judging the person but God, what verses come to mind when dealing with the person of dubious conversion, how will God deal with them? It's a great way to test your "feelings" about the nature of God.

I often think the grace of God should not be extended to persons that are producing noticeably less effort than myself, well at least I used to, now I feel more universalistic. (I'm not!)
But God does not seem willing to give me personal information as to who will be redeemed so I speculate and those thoughts make me wonder who will God save,
And for what reasons, one prayer as a child, one last plea for help before the plane crashes? I donít knowÖ

As for me I have always felt uncomfortable with alter calls they seem to be manipulative, but I admit it's solely a personal prejudice.
Flyinglady
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have responded to so many altar calls and no one told me or counseled with me on what I needed to be a Christ follower. Of course, these altar calls were all in Adventist schools/churches. I would cry, because I was so convicted. It finally got to a point where I would not cry and if I felt like crying, I would get up and leave.
It was not until I learned what the real Gospel is-loving and accepting Jesus and what He did for me, that I shed genuine tears. I cried because I was so happy. That was a little over two years ago. WOW!!! Time has flown by.
The church I currently attend does not have altar calls. The pastor will ask if anyone wants to accept Christ to raise their hands while he is saying the benediction prayer. Then he invites all those who raised their hands to come forward, after the service, where the pastors can counsel with them and help them know what to do next. This is so much nicer.
Not as manipulative.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Diana
Ratthedd
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

One of the reasons that some threads will expand beyond the window is that a post contains a link that is longer than your settings will allow. While most text will automatically wrap, links are treated as special objects that do not get split.

- Erik.
Ratthedd
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Post Number: 27
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a bit curious at what I perceive to be concern about other's salvation or wondering if they're pulling enough weight to be saved. Is that important? Why should anyone other than me be concerned about my salvation? It's not up to me to be saved, and it's not up to anyone else here on Earth whether or not I'm saved. Salvation is a gift freely given and all that is required to obtain it is to receive it. We don't even need to ask to be saved, the gift has already been presented to us.

If Brother Jim or Sister Mary appear to be doing less, maybe we should ask ourselves why that's even important to us. Do we really think that our opinion of Brother Jim's and Sister Mary's efforts matter? I sure hope my opinion doesn't matter to someone else's salvation.

...or have I been misreading some of the posts above?

- Erik.
Dennis
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Erik,

Thanks for the technical information about posted links.

Dennis Fischer

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