| Author | Message | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 274 Registered: 6-2001  |
So, I've been pretty happy with my local church, a Free Methodist one, without thinking too much about the national organization. Growing up in a nondenominational church, it is natural for me to think this way. Unfortunately, I now think that is not quite right (No smiling Stan). As a member, I have started to receive the denomination's magazaine, and this month's edition has caused quite a stir: http://www.freemethodistchurch.org/Magazine/ In the magazine is article after article about keeping Sunday as the Sabbath. Now I admit, the Sunday Sabbath was brought up during membership class, but kind of glossed over as a good idea to have a day of rest. When my husband saw the magazine his first thought was it was something from his family. Imagine his horror when he saw it was from our church! He is quite upset and wants to leave the church. (Technically he is not a member, since membership classes are on Saturdays, which is a day he always works.) I told him we would draft a letter to the editor of the magazine, and he would talk to our pastor, but beyond that I am not sure what to do. Sabbath has never come up in my church either from the pulpit or in conversation. I have made many friends there and would be unhappy to leave. What do you all think I should do? (I will post the letter to the editor as soon as I have it written.) Desperately, Hannah | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO SET APART A DAY TO REST FROM OUR COMMON LABORS AND GIVE THAT DAY TO WORSHIP GOD AND TO SPIRITUAL THINGS, IF THAT DAY IS SUNDAY, BEST. THE BEST SAINTS OF THE PAST WERE SUNDAY KEEPERS (JONATHAN EDWARS, J. C. RYLE, SPURGEON, THE PURITANS, ETC.) I THINK THAT TO KEEP THE SABBATH ISN'T LEGALISM. BUT I UNDERSTAND YOUR HUSBAND, THAT REACTION IS COMMON TO THOSE OF US THAT KEEPED THE SATURDAY IN A LEGALISTIC WAY. I ADVICE YUO NOT TO TAKE AN HASTILY DECITION. PRAY, READ THE WORD, THINK. IN CHRIST, RAFAEL. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 968 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hannah, I agree with Rafael. For people who haven't had exposure to the legalist approach to Sabbathing, the articles you read were not that threatening. To a "burned" legalist, however, "them's fightin' words! I wouldn't do anything rash. Remember, the name of the denomination is "methodist" so they will be looking at methods to holiness. The law will always be cropping up in that sort of thing. Observationally, Belva | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2004  |
Guess I must be a "burned" legalist. It really rubs me the wrong way for anyone to suggest I "ought" to keep a certain day. That is not Scriptual and is only a personal matter. I think it's a good idea to write a letter to the editor, knowing that it may not change anything. In reading the article, I noticed they think tithing is good also. It really irritates me when church leaders want to principalize everything and make people feel guilty for not being Christian enough to go along with it. Unfortunately, that happens a lot in most of Christianity. Regarding whether or not you should look for another church, if you're happy where you're at and that issue is not coming up in your own church, I'd stay put. But I'd also be more than willing to speak up if and when it did come up in the church. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 275 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks Belva and Rafael, It would not be up to me if we left, but my husband, and I think if he doesn't at least feel like his beliefs are validated in some way by someone, he will want to leave. He says he didn't spend so many years leaving the adventist church to join a church that would publish something like this, or how he could recommend a church to his adventist family that would publish something like this. I am afraid to disagree with him about leaving, because he will think I am not taking his "struggle" seriously, and this is serious. We won't do anything rash. Confusedly, Hannah | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 387 Registered: 7-2004 |
Clarification: when I said "principalize" I meant principalizing things from the Old Covenant is what irritates me, instead of recognizing it has faded away and we are now in the New Covenant. I can see what you mean, Hannah, about how serious this is. If your husband is anything like me, that's precisely why we searched so thoroughly for a church that had it right in regards to the New Covenant. In addition, I especially was not about to be a part of any church that promoted tithing, because that was my AHA moment when our youngest daughter expressed complete shock that the tithe, "God's money," would give the pastor a paycheck. (To allay any concerns, I do believe it's Biblical to financially support ministers, but not by tithing.) Since that's what started us digging deep and eventually led us out, it would be impossible for us to be part of a church that wanted their members to tithe. I can see where the Sabbath issue could be real similar. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 464 Registered: 5-2002 |
Same pig (legalism) Different shade of lipstick (Sunday instead of Saturday). | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Hannah, I can only speak from my own heart of opinions, not yours or anyone else's. But this quote of yours jumped out at me: "I am afraid to disagree with him about leaving, because he will think I am not taking his "struggle" seriously, and this is serious." If I were in your situation (and I am not and I certainly do not know all details), I would place your husband's feelings and spirtual viewpoints (under Christ) first, not the church's stands. I would take him as seriously as he needs you, for as long as he needs for you to; and be there for him, alone, not for a church. He is your Bond, in Christ, for life, not that church. Time takes care of much; give it a chance, in prayer. I would pray for him, if it were me, and just listen, not debate it, while he is in an adamant mood. (I am not saying you do not) God will show the spiritual way, in time for you both. God might just be speaking through your husband's intense emotions, in discernment, as it should be, beautifully shown in scripture, as the spirtitual leader in the home. But, trust me, I am not invalidating yours, either (women's intuition/discernment, under Christ, is a most powerful, influential thing in the right way!!!). You are partners in the Lord. Your marriage, family peace in Christ is first, not a within a local church. I may be entirely missing something and wrong about what you wrote. If I am, please, please forgive me. I truly do not desire to come across as patronizing to you, when I do not know your husband nor you. I just do care for a sister in Christ and her family, and your salutation, "desperately". When I see a young, Christian mother and her husband, family...I desire them to be so,so blessed in ways I was not or in ways I was not able to be so because I knew not. On the spiritual-church note, I would, personally, have nothing to do with any church which had any, any hint of legalism, whatsoever. But that is me and because of what I have learned in scripture. Each must decide on their own, in the Lord. Hannah, if it feels 'crazy', it, probably is. "Seek peace and pursue it". Your sister in Christ, Cathy | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 430 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hannah, please forgive me if this seems unkind. However, I and Dennis (along with others) warned you about things that we saw in the Free Methodist church over on the Womens Ordination thread. I told you then that any church that can find a Biblical reason to ordain women was a church in which you would find other theological problems. I told you then that their view of what the Bible was sure looked a lot like the deceitful language that SDA's use. Didn't Dennis make a comment on the statement about giving that it sure seemed as if they meant 'tithe'? Hannah, you really have to leave. You need to find a true, Evangelical church that adheres to what the Bible says. It should be elder driven, it should believe in Verbal, Plenary inspiration, there should be women in complementary roles but not as pastors or elders, there should be plenty of expository teaching; plenty of mission/ourtreach oppourtunities; and if all of these are present, the church will be growing. Don't get discouraged by a setback, God does have a plan and place for your family. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 969 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lone, I truly understand your words and your emotion in this thing, but how many of your Christian friends have studied out things like tithing, sabbathing, state-of-the-dead, and ever so many other issues, the way we have on thus forum? When I first started posting here I was still only inches away from Adventism and still felt that a lot of these things were non-issues. Thankfully I have all of you here delving into the scriptures, and we have together gone deeper into the Word than most people do in a lifetime. The church that I attend knows that tithing is no longer practiced in the Christian church, but they also, from the pulpit, make the recommendation that you set aside 10% for yourself and give another 10% for God just as a matter of good stewardship. It is statements like this made to a listening crowd that will bring up the ogres of the past. Much prayer and discernment is required when you make a decision that will change the pathways of an entire family. This can be traumatic if it has already happened before. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 431 Registered: 7-2000 |
I agree that it will be traumatic. That's why it is so important to very carefully check out a new church and what it teaches before joining--especially if you are just out of Adventism. That's why we formers are here---as a resource to guide, encourage and warn those who are leaving. As for your question of how many of my Christian friends have studied the way we have? Quite a few have studied the subjects indepth---but they don't study from the perspective of what we have been through. That does make a difference. I have seen pastors use language that is familiar to their congregations that means something different than what I thought the meaning was. Adventism really does a head trip on folks (as do all cults) by changing the meaning of so many Christian terms to something else. I doubt, though, that the struggle Hannah and her family are having is merely a 'war of words'. I really have a feeling that, although her local church may be good, the denomination as a whole has some theological problems that are going to keep coming back to haunt them. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 313 Registered: 10-2005 |
The statement that "we warned you that this problem is going to lead to yet another problem and more problems in the church body" irritates me. It reminds me of when I was in the Adventist Church and if you eat this, or if you do that, your going to end up sinning more and more. It isn't about proof texting everything as the Seventh-day Adventist church so cleverly does always to show they are right. I know when I was in the Seventh-day Adventist church, they were always right. If you have to proof text everything against the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, you are playing the devils game. Satan is wasting your time. Is it about all the right rituals? All the right doctrine? And if it is, according to who? You have left a cult, leave Satan behind. Move on. Do they teach tithing or do they enforce tithing? Or will you not be saved if you don't tithe? There is the different gospel. If I attend a church that teaches tithing and I don't tithe because I don't believe in tithing, they aren't going to kick me out. If they do, it isn't about Jesus. I'm not going to divorce my husband because he doesn't agree with me on everything. It is my personal conviction that I was brainwashed by the Seventh-day Adventist church. It wasn't about getting every comma in the bible in the right place. Is it about Jesus? Is it the gospel? That is what matters most. If it really is about getting every verse correct, I'll never find the right church. That's what I realized when I got married. I stopped looking for the perfect man. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 612 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hannah, I agree with your husband on this one. Since you have never been an Adventist, this will help him in knowing you support him as the priest of his family. Let him lead out if it enhances the spiritual climate in your home. I think you both would find another church more nurturing. Your mutually seeking and deciding on a new church should actually bring added stability and blessings to your home. Nowadays, with the Internet, finding out about different churches has never been easier. Of course, don't miss considering my church at www.efca.org (there is locator feature to find the nearest EFCA church to your area). There are many other solid, Bible-based churches as well. Above all, ask the Lord to lead you to just the right church family to meet your needs. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1376 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, I'm smiling! It was actually Dennis who on the thread about women in the pulpit illustrated the problem with Free Methodists, and that is their free-will based Arminian theology. That is the root problem with Adventism, as is the root problem with all theology that is based on John Wesley's perfectionistic theology. I keep stressing the importance to recognize Adventisms' Wesleyan roots. Martin Luther recognized this way back in the 1500's when he said that free-will was the basic evil behing the Roman Catholic church. We see the same spirit of Romanism manifested in today's evangelical Christianity with it's Pelagian captivity. www.modernreformation.org/rc01pelagian.htm Here R.C. Sproul does an excellent job about exposing the basic problem with evangelical Christianity today. Stan | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 432 Registered: 7-2000 |
Do they teach tithing or do they enforce tithing? Or will you not be saved if you don't tithe? There is the different gospel. If I attend a church that teaches tithing and I don't tithe because I don't believe in tithing, they aren't going to kick me out. If they do, it isn't about Jesus. -------------------------------------------- I respectfully disagree, Lynne. The 'HOW' of 'how did they come to find the doctrine of tithing' is critically important. If you don't have a good hermaneutic (that is, a method of studying the Bible) you and the group you are in are sooner or later going to wind off base on bigger issues. The hermaneutic of the SDA church is cultic and heretical. You've got to erase that method of study and learn a new one. You can't do that if you are learning from a group that also has a bad hermaneutic. How do you know? When the New Testament is clear on a subject, and the church you belong to goes against that teaching---you've got a problem no matter how little the subject seems to matter. Bill | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2005 |
The Seventh-day Adventist Church started out of the Millerite movement. Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. They have been covering their tracks with visions ever since. Let us now blame certain theology or theologians. However, it is all churches from the Millerite Movement in existence today that are "works" based. Seventh-day Adventists teach all other churches are wrong. Now what I am hearing, now that I am no longer an Adventist, is that only the 100% pure teachings of New Covenant churches have it right. There are no doctrinal problems or errors in those churches. The doctrine is all perfect and those who disagree don't know their bible. I see. Realistically, that sounds Adventistish to me. And what do I do if I live in a small town with only 3 churches and they all teach tithing. Yikes! Does that mean I should stay home? Come on, I should be with other believers worshipping the King of King and Lord of Lords! Or then again, maybe I should stick with a certain race because that nationality has certain things much more right than others. And don't listen to me. I'm a woman. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3476 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hannah, I so understand your feeling of having the props knocked out from under you. You know, your situation reminds me in a sort-of backwards way of a friend of mine (who posts on this forum!) whose husband remained Adventists for quite some time after she herself knew she had to leave. She wanted to find a Sunday church, and she wanted her husband and kids to attend with her. This woman had some insightful Christian friends from Bible study, though, who prayed with and for her, and they urged her to respect her husband's desire to go to the SDA church. Since he is the head of the family, they said, she, as a true, believing Christ-follower, needed to validate his rightful position as head by honoring him and attending with him, even if she went by herself on Sundays. This woman did exactly that. She continued to go to the SDA church and to pray for her husband. Today, a couple or so years later, he also has left and is attending a Sunday church with her. My point is that I believe that if you pray for your God to minister to your husband's heart and pray that He will direct your family re: where to worship, you can trust Him. I believe it will be a powerful vote of respect and confidence for your husband to follow his lead in this. I TOTALLY know how your husband feelsóand I have to say that I'd likely feel the same way. I just have to say that I remember how we prayed for your husband, several years ago, to be able to see the truth about Adventism. What a tribute to God's grace that he has seen and has left! You can trust God to work in this for the good of all of you. It's terribly hard for many of usóperhaps esepcially for us womenóto make a change such as this. It sort of goes against our "nesting" instincts. You can trust God, howeveróremember Romans 8:28óand you can expect that out of this upsetting situation God will distill new blessings for not only your husband but also for you. Encouragingly, Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3477 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rafael_r, welcome to the forum! We're glad you've come online, and we look forward to hearing more of your story. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thank you all for your thoughts. I appreciate every one of them! We are planning to talk to the pastor about this, and submit the following letter to the magazine. After that, we are not sure. As the Lord leads, I guess. Anyways, tell me what you think of the letter, based on what you read in the magazine: Dear Sirs: I was deeply disturbed by your series of articles on keeping the Sunday Sabbath published in the March/April Light & Life magazine. I spent many years struggling to leave a denomination that used the seventh-day Sabbath as the cornerstone of its heavy legalistic bondage. But I did not leave the church to join another similar to it, and that is what I suspect after reading your magazine. The arguments for a Sunday Sabbath in the article are the same ones I refute in the process of leaving the seventh-day Sabbath. Arguments for a seventh-day Sabbath are actually more difficult to disprove because nowhere in the Bible does it say Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday or does it show any New Testament character keeping Sunday as a day of rest. If any Sabbath should be kept today, it should be a seventh-day Sabbath. The author of your article uses circumstantial information and not direct statements by God to attempt to prove the day was changed. What changed was not the day, but the covenant. The Israelites were under the Mosaic covenant, the one given by God at Mt. Sinai. That covenant ended at the cross when the New Covenant, a covenant not requiring sacrifices or ceremonies, was formed. ìWhen God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.î (Hebrews 8:13). The New Covenant is outlined in the New Testament, where the command to keep a Sabbath day is never given. I will briefly outline for you, based on the arguments in the article, why I donít believe even the seventh-day Sabbath is applicable today. ï When God said He blessed the seventh day in Gen. 2: 1, notice He did not say He blessed every seventh day or that He asked Adam to not work on that seventh day or any seventh day. ï Each time the Sabbath is given as a command in the Pentateuch it is given as a command to the Israelites: Exodus 20:1-2, ìThen God instructed the people as follows: ëI am the LORD your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt.íî The commandments immediately follow. ï The author says the Old Testament prophets saw keeping the Sabbath as ìa profound moral issue.î How moral did Isaiah think Sabbath keeping was when he wrote that God wanted nothing more to do with Sabbath celebrations (Isaiah 1:13)? ï Paul outlines his position on Sabbath keeping in Romans 14:5 when he says ìIn the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter.î Paul does not say Sabbath keeping is excluded from this, although it does say I should not judge you for your decision to keep a day holy. These verses are mentioned in your magazine, but oddly enough the author left their meaning to be guessed at. I would appreciate it if you would prayerfully consider this issue and its implications. I would be happy to follow up on any questions that you might have. Sincerely, David Newton. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hannah and David, That is a very well thought out, and irenic response to the above article. It hopefully will impress them to reevaluate the implications of their premise. Randy |
