| Author | Message | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2005 |
http://www.bibleprophecyseminars.com I don't know why any SDA would agree to this level of deception. You will be hard pressed to find the SDA church name anywhere on this website. However, when you compare the Louisiana presenter: http://www.bibleprophecyseminars.com/index.php?gl=detail&id=441542 With this: http://www.afmonline.org/missionaries/about.php?type=ALUMNI&id=107&PHPSESSID=7631b14f100 Or the Alaska presenter: http://www.bibleprophecyseminars.com/index.php?gl=detail&id=441558 With this: http://www.adventistdirectory.org/view_Entity.asp?EntityID=17617 | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm not surprised. That is the only way the church can grow, through deception. Nobody in their right mind would come into this church now, especially with the internet, without being brainwashed first. By the way, if anyone has studied this topic. Does anyone know the brainwashing techniques/methods they use? It would be interesting. I know there is a definate method. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3486 Registered: 12-2003  |
I don't know whether or not they have a "method". My understanding is that, while there may be a method to their madness, so to speak, it is one that grew up without a name, at least originally. Deception is clever because it so closely resembles truth. They succeed because their "victims" don't know the truth, so the deception seems logical. Unless a person knows the Bible well, the SDA arguments seem to make the most sense. Evil among humans began with deception in the Garden. It's the oldest form of brainwashingóand it still works. Because it doesn't appear to be cruel or forceful, people are sucked in before they know what's happened. It can even seem very comforting and safeóuntil one actually looks at the cognitive dissonance it creates. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 465 Registered: 5-2002 |
Which is more dangerous, a bottle of poison with a skull and crossbones on the label, or a bottle of poison without any label at all? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 321 Registered: 10-2005 |
There is a definate "hint" that something isn't right when you are the outside of the Seventh-day Adventist church, looking in. Though it is like a bottle of poison with no label, when you open it, there is going to be something different and unsettling about it, an odor or something. I don't believe that knowledge alone will convict us with deception. Knowledge alone didn't stop Eve or Adam. But there is a saying, "knowledge is power". And Ephesians 6 does warn us to put on the full Armor of God which is the Word of God. And the only power we really have is not from us, it comes from totally surrendering our hearts and our lives to Christ. Without that, anyone can be deceived. I don't think the SDA arguments make the most sense to many and most outsiders. They just always have answers, whether they are true or not. They tap into a dark spirit that speaks for them, the snakes, the prophet, the wolves in sheeps clothes... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2363 Registered: 3-2004  |
We all know what Adventism teaches and we are thankful God, in His awesome wisdom, has pulled us out of it. So let us continue to pray even more for our Adventist families and friends that God will open their eyes, ears and minds to His truth. Only God can convict them. Diana | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2006 |
Here is an informative link, way below, which may help some people to keep themselves out of subtle deceptions, heresies and apostasies. Whether it is from just propaganda to mind control and anything in-between. It is an extensive website about many things 'out there'. They do not address Adventism, but many of the same themes apply, including a Latter Rain/Apostolic theology popular out there. (Ellen wrote about the Latter Rain to expect before The End like other Christains are expecting, now) I do not believe or agree with every word and doctrine Tricia Tillin does, like I am not a millenialist, for instance, but as a rule this site is a mine of gold for understanding some 'Watchmen' things. It has been one of my foundational resource sites for years, whenever a 'New Thing' came down the Christian pike. This article goes into modern mind control in Christianity (It focuses on the 'Revival Movement'). If anyone desires to watch an SDA 'Revelation Seminar' (I do not) and look for these things, this might help to alert people to what is happening to themselves, if it is. Also, Lifton's criteria for a dysfunctional, controlling (at the least, a Cult at the worst) group is on the page, which fits Adventism 100%. I have found that only those who have been in Adventism recognize this list, never anyone on the outside of Adventism. One has to have been within it to see this. There is another article on the site about how certain movements are using music to emotionally control. I strongly can vouch for that. Not just because I have been in it, manipulated by it, but because I am so musically inclined and vulnerable myself (I don't just hear music, I need music like I breath). Music is the only medium, which the brain cannot block out. And the lyrics in it just (literally) groove into the brain, as well, influencing our thinking, then to our paradigm. There is a researched neuroscience to this. Believe me, there are people, who study this neuroscience and use it. Music can literally heal, they know now, or it can spiritually kill, we should know. Even if it sounds beautiful. Satan comes as an angel of light, mostly, or logical not usually as Dracula and carnage. Evil does not just use these methods in the Rock/Metal and secular, Madison Avenue world. What better conquest than to use them to steal potential sheep, who do not understand the Gospel in the first place? Or never heard it preached/taught? So they stumble into a 'church' and feel good. Feel actual bliss. Ears tickled, a "New Thing' in the 'Marketplace' or the intellectual 'logic' of Adventism, chain verse by verse? Add some marketing techniques for their *senses* and here they come! I agree with Flyinglady; only the Holy Spirit can break the bondage, tear away the veil, by his grace. Preach, teach, proclaim the Gospel, the Word, (not always intellectual arguements. SDA's ADORE them! They love it! It feeds their pride) the power of God to their ears, and pray, pray, pray! http://www.intotruth.org/apostasy/mind-control1.htm 'The Covert Strategies of the False Revival (1) "Are Churches using a form of Brainwashing to alter the minds of Believers?" ' © 2003 Tricia Tillin of Banner Ministries. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1389 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy, Interesting link. But I was trying to look for info on who Tricia Tillin is, then I saw that she has withdrawn from ministry and give permission for someone else to take over the site. Can you explain who Tillin is, and why she is withdrawing from ministry? It is important to establish credibility in these types of ministries. Thanks for any other info you could give. Stan | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2006 |
I didn't know that Tricia withdrew and I am sorry to hear of it. I hope it was not for any health reasons or about the oppressions she has received, for years, from people who didn't like what was on her site. Things can get ugly, when you publically uphold up the cross against lies. Perhaps, she needed a rest. All I can see on the home page, where it explains about changes, is that old 'Cross+Word' articles are archived and that if there any questions, one can contact them with this email: enquiries@intotruth.org As I understood it, the reason her site was named 'Cross+Word' is that she rejected any extra-Biblical, special revelation, which, of course, as an ex-SDA I did too. I am allergic to any extra-Biblical revelation. The cross, the Word. I was drawn to that like a bee to honey. Oh, I understand and agree 100% about credibility! I look for it and an avoidance of spectacular extremes and claims of the other side. But one must discern for themselves with God. Other 'Watchmen' linked to Tricia and vice versa, through the years. She had other authors of articles on her site, not just her own expository viewpoints and stories. I don't ever recall reading anything which veered away from the basic Gospel. They might have had free-willism--as in, an act of Belief of ourselves-- in there, but not in an extreme way; certainly not preached. The point of the site is to alert people to heresy and spiritual danger, not finer theological points within the Body. As far as who Tricia is.... That was on her original site, but not there, now. I cannot recall details, other than she was in England; placed herself under the spiritual authority and guidance of other Christians, as a safeguard, so she would not go all over the place and astray into her own thinking, in her ministry. She was married. She had been in some of the extreme 'Movements' she warned about later. She researced them, quoted others, giving them credit due. She had about 100 links, I think, where one could research all these things oneself. Not only other 'Watchmen' sites, but the original 'Horse's mouths', so to speak. So one could discern truth from lies on one's own, not just taking her word for it, and to read their words and theology for one's self. I am assuming that the person, who asked to take over her site, is doing the same things. I hope. It was these kinds of sites, which helped me understand the Bible even more and get away from certain heresies (Like Word of Faith) and things, which bothered me, but I didn't quite know why. From another source, years ago, when I was studying Cults, when I read Lifton's criteria, Adventism jumped out at me and much made sense as to why it is so, so hard to leave. Trusting the Helmet of Salvation to cover my mind, not a flim flam, gauzy old veil. Cathy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2006 |
Stan, Here is a link to Tricia's own story and it tells about herself and background. She and her husband got out of Word of Faith, 'Health and Wealth Gospel', back into scripture, then began Banner Ministries. http://www.intotruth.org/wof/mytest.html I want to say that if I post something, I don't necessarily agree with every single word, thought or theology of the author and/or site, but am in the unity of Jesus Christ in the specific article and or author. And no one has to agree with me!  God knows how wrong I was in the past, if not for others. Take the best and leave the rest! Cathy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2005 |
When I lived in North Carolina during the 1980's there was quite a push from the east coast conferences for pastors to attend LAB I and LAB II courses in neurolinguistic programming. I have detailed information somewhere from that time because I found it so unusual that the leadership of numerous east coast conferences would find it necessary to hypnotise potential church members to bring them into the Sevent-day Adventist Church. There doesn't seem to be as much about it on the Internet now. Here are a few links: http://www.sdadefend.com/Hypnotism.htm http://www.sdadefend.com/Reports/Catholic%20Studies.htm What Vance Ferrel has written here is true. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Spiritism&Occult/You're-Growing-Sleepy.pdf http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:Nk1ck2kOS6oJ:remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Spiritism%26Occult/You%27re-Growing-Sleepy.pdf+%22LEAD+Consultants%22+Adventist&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3
http://www.lightministries.com/webdoc68.htm
http://www.lightministries.com/id94.htm
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| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1390 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy, Thanks for the info. Gilbert, Vance Ferrell is an extreme right-wing SDA who has a reputation for being a sensationalistic yellow journalist--out of the National Enquirer mold. He has presented some of the most untrue stories, and then has had to withdraw them from his website. So, almost anything he posts is up to question. He just may be right about that NLP situation, and I would have to check it out further. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3497 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know that NLP was all the rage during the last decade. Even my MIL, who used to work for the NPUC as a collection manager for Home Health Education Service, took classes in it. I tend to think it was far less effective than Ferrell made it sound. I remember that the word was going around that Bill Loveless was using hypnotism in his church services at LLU Church. We were attending at that time, and while I'm sure Loveless knew NLP techniques, I saw no evidence of brainwashing there. We knew one person on a more personal level who deliberately DID use NLP in his interactions with peopleóand yes, I believe he may have been somewhat successful. It was hard to tell, however, because he was somewhat unscrupulous anyway. While NLP was quite the rage for a while, I believe Vance Ferrell overstated its significance within the church. Just my opinion--I admit there may well be evidence about which I know nothing! Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well, for those in Christ, we are promised and have the mind of Christ, his Word, and the 'Helmet of Salvation', protecting our minds, thoughts and perspectives, growing in knowledge of him. For those, who are vulnerable innocents, unsure of their salvation, not knowing salvation, etc., we have the power of prayer for them, which is more powerful than any neuroscience mind technique on earth, studied and used by mankind for evil. That is all I have for my family. Prayer. For whatever reasons, each 'Revelation Seminar' they go to, over and over, they just get more entrenched into Adventism and Ellen. There is not a thing I can say to them; the Adventist 'tapes' just play back to me out of their mouths, quoting chain verses. (like I didn't grow up with the same pre-programmed 'tapes') Free at last...to think things through, Cathy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 196 Registered: 11-2005 |
Stan - For people who are not familiar with who Vance Ferril is, your caution is certainly a good one. He has always been one to try to find something to publish about -- usually about "dirty laundry" within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I presumed our readership here can filter out the "pro-Ellen White" bias. Those of us who came from a "fundamental" SDA background, could usually sift out his opinion, and tell what was actually pretty close to the truth. A good example was the SDA church's early trademark lawsuits. In this case, having lived in the Carolina Conference during the 1980s, and more importantly at one of the major SDA retirement mecas, Fletcher Academy, I had the benefit of a well-watered SDA grapevine. NLP was being pushed by a number of the eastern conferences. We heard quite a bit about it (especially LAB I and LAB II) at the time from conservative SDAs who were dismayed. Today, twenty years later, there is not much on the Internet about it. The information that Vance Ferril provides is the most detailed I could find. What these two sources provides is an accurate portrayal of what we were independently hearing in the mid 1980's. Independent of that, one could today also look up http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Savage+%22LEAD+Consultants%22+Adventist&btnG=Google+Search and pull up a little more. I propose that this mix of neuroliguistical training and SDA evangelism may contribute to the otherwise unexplainable "outreach" methodologies that currently exists within mainstream Adventist evangelism. When I watch Doug Batchelor's presentations, there are at times something that just doesn't seem quite right. I am reminded also of the recent Quiet Hour "Bible" CD that, like a mantra, prefixes every response in a search with "It's in the Bible -". Jeremy had an excellent parody of that one. (see http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/3905.html?1139946000) . Does this conclusion sound reasonable to you? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gilbert, did your father teach math at Fletcher Academy during the '80s? leigh | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2005 |
Yes | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 68 Registered: 2-2003 |
I took Algebra I and Geometry from him at Fletcher. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3498 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gilbert, it wouldn't surprise me if Batchelor et al use NLP techniques in their prentations. The little I remember reading about it years ago discussed the use of words that would trigger responses in people and learning to use known trigger wrods to elicit the desired responses. Etc. The deception just continues... Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2005  |
I need some clarification on just what is NLP and how to recognize it when I see it. I can use trigger words to get responses from people, and I've never taken a class in NLP. But that doesn't mean I'm trying to hypnotize them. Back in the early 90s, I read a library book on NLP, hoping to find out what all the scare was about. I remember thinking there really weren't any new ideas presented in the book, just familiar concepts given a new name. Basically, it seemed that therapists were being taught how to understand the needs of their clients so well that they could transmit calmness to them if they got nervous talking about difficult subjects. Like, simply reaching out and touching them lightly on the back of the hand to 'connect' with them and help them relax. This is something we all do when we're trying to comfort another person who's in distress. Another concept the book taught was 'mirroring'. If the other person has their arms crossed, then you cross yours, so as to 'mirror' their posture. This puts a person at ease and makes them feel that you're not threatening them. You can learn the same concept from any book on body language. I think some highly educated people want to write books to get a name for themselves and become famous for supposedly new techniques, which are really just common sense with a catchy new name. If there are any professional therapists in the group, please feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong. |
