| Author | Message | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 433 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lynne wrote: Now what I am hearing, now that I am no longer an Adventist, is that only the 100% pure teachings of New Covenant churches have it right. There are no doctrinal problems or errors in those churches. The doctrine is all perfect and those who disagree don't know their bible. I see. Realistically, that sounds Adventistish to me. ------------------------------------------ So, there is no objective truth? Truth is 'relative' or 'subjective'? Truth is to be exchanged for a 'convenient' church that is close by? Would you then join a UCC congregation that teaches that the Bible allows practicing homosexuals to be church members and clergy? Or the Evangelical Lutherans who allow their pulpits to exchange with Episcopalians and Roman Catholics? Or the liberal Presbyterian churches that preach a feminist gospel and have 're-imagining' seminars that use new age rituals to connect with a feminine god? What do you think, Lynne? Is this acceptable? And if not, why not? Where (and how) do you draw the line? Don't these folks call themselves 'Christian'? | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 |
THANKS MRS. TINKER, I'M FROM THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. I JOINED THE SDA CHURCH WHEN I WAS 13 (THEY CATCHED ME). BUT I BECAME CHRISTIAN AT 16 (1988), AFTER A SHORT BUT DEEP TIME OF CONVICTION OF SIN GOD THE HOLLY SPIRIT LEAD ME TO CALL UPON JESUS AND ASKED HIM TO BE MY SAVIOR. IN THAT DAY I WAS BORN AGAIN, I SHALL NEVER FORGET THAT DAY. AS THE TIME WENT ON I GOT IN TOUCH WITH THE HISTORICAL ADVENTISTS, THEN I BECAME A FOLLOWER OF ALL MRS. WHITE TEACHINGS UNTIL I BECAME A FANATIC AND WAS EXPULSED FROM THE SDAC (THE SAME CHURCH THAT TEACH THAT MRS. WHITE IS A TRUE PROPHETESS). BETWEEN THE HISTORICAL ADVENTISTS THERE WAS AND THERE ARE MUCH CONFUSION AND MANY STRANGE TEACHINGS. I ENDED SO SONFUSED THAT I ABANDONED ALL RELIGIOUS PROFESSION AND MY SPIRITUAL LIFE WAS DAMED FOR MANY YEARS. THANKS GOD I FINALY GOT OUT OF THAT SITUATION AND NOW I ATTEND A BAPTIST CHURCH HERE IN SANTO DOMINGO. BUT IíM PASSING A DIFICULT TIME IN MY MARRIAGE, BECOUSE MY WIFE IS AN ADVENTIST AND WE HAVE TWO KIDS (7 AND 5), PLEASE PRAY FOR ME. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 315 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hannah - No, I don't believe they should be calling Sunday the Sabbath. That is a really big mistake. I think the letter Hannah wrote is great. I do think that such an error as this can lead people to the Seventh-day Adventist church, making them think it is more accurate. I would be very disturbed if the church I attended called Sunday the Sabbath. I would likely respectfully move on. But if it were the only church in town, I would stay put and share my views. Loveviking - "I never said there is no objective truth." Like about homosexuality. I think that is a cheap shot. I have made that clear in the past that I don't believe that. I am not a liberal. NO, I'm not going to believe homosexuality is okay if I practice tithing. Nor am I going to follow the new age movement and feminize God, making God a woman, because I believe women can read and teach. Jesus was a man. Psalm 103:13 - As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. Neither do I believe in abortion. What about the Catholics, they agree with me on certain moral issues. However, they teach a false gospel, so why mesh words together. No, if there is only a RCC church available to me to worship, NO, I will not go to it. I'm not talking about liberal Presbyterians that are in the middle of a 75% homosexual community either. The fact is, as I stated previously, the Seventh-day Adventist Church comes from error - a false verse/foundation as stated in Matthew 24:36. It is a different gospel. I don't have to have ALL of the answers as the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches, they do have all the answers. NO, you don't need to get every detail in the bible right. And yes, I agree that certain issues are important to get right. Why critize so many other denominations over things like getting the tithing issue right and every detail of scripture. Are they not your brothers and sisters in Christ? I'm talking about Christians with changed hearts. Not Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Catholics, those who are lost. You claim certain theologeans, more studied than you are wrong. It is about a changed heart. As with Nichodemous and the teachers of the law, spiritual things only come from a changed heart as explained in John 3:1-20 (20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." There are many Christians who don't agree with you on everything that have totally surrendered their hearts and lives to Jesus. Are you drawing lines or putting up brick walls. If former adventists go too far in having to get every detail right, nobody will want to listen. And the purpose of getting the truth out about the Seventh-day Adventist church will FAIL. Former Adventists will lose credibility if they are too quick to judge their brothers and sisters in Christ for what they consider to be mistakes. We will never do away with all errors in the churches. But I believe you are mistaken about certain issues just as you have accused me. I don't believe that if a church is wrong about one thing they are going to be wrong about everything as you accuse so many churches. Bottom line, is the church teaching a false gospel. Is it about Jesus. 2 Corintians 11:3 - But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your SINCERE AND PURE DEVOTION TO CHRIST. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2005 |
Rafael - I'll pray for you and your marriage and children. Many blessings to you! Lynne | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2005 |
Rafael--I have nearly the same struggle with my wife as you, except that I haven't shared with my wife the depth of my doubting about the things I used to believe...But I will pray for you... Is there a church out there that teaches 100% gospel? I don't know, that's why I ask. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 422 Registered: 8-2004  |
Loneviking? What happened here? I have to agree with Lynn the attitude in your post does sound 'Adventistish' or at the very least dogmatic. There are disagreements between Christians (even 'Reformed Christians'). No human is 100% right, let alone a group of humans. (Though there are some groups who are 'more right' than others.) Of course there is Truth. Jesus himself IS truth, and has promised us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. The more we submit to Him and walk in His light, the more Truth we will learn - and the more we will realise we don't know. Exchange truth for convenience? of course not. At the same time, if you wait for a group who agrees on EVERY facet of truth you will likely be waiting a looooong time - or end up in a cult. Is there not a place for fellowshipping with others who are worshipping God, even when we don't agree on everything? It seems that even on this forum we have discussed the blessings we recieve by doing just that! UCC is which church? And whatever they do or don't do about homosexuals, do we only attend churches that do not allow practicing sinners to be members? Have you ever had close contact with any Evangelical Lutherans? Or Episcopalians? or Roman Catholics, for that matter? You sound as if God never works thru any of them. Have you considered that God is bigger than gender? Yes, Jesus was male (he had to be one or the other as a human), but both genders were created in God's image. There are aspects of God that are what we would describe as masculine, and other aspects of God that appear feminine. I'm not advocating adressing God as she. Yet even though we don't agree with the 'liberal Presbyterians' who 'preach a 'feminist gospel', there are probably things we can learn from them. Just as we've learned things from SDAism. Who are we to judge another man's servants? You ask "Where (and how) do you draw the line?" Methinks we DON'T. We walk with God, ask Him for wisdom . . . and ask Him to draw the line. He will do it for each of his children - and it may not always be at the same place even for the same child. The questions that it seems to me most important to ask are: Am I a Christian? Am I walking in the Spirit, or in the flesh? Is God my all? Is Jesus free to use me (and feed me) how (and where) He chooses? Blessings, Mary | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 423 Registered: 8-2004 |
Rafael, I'll pray for you and your family too. Welcome to FAF! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 434 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lynne wrote: Loveviking - "I never said there is no objective truth." Like about homosexuality. I think that is a cheap shot. I have made that clear in the past that I don't believe that. I am not a liberal. NO, I'm not going to believe homosexuality is okay if I practice tithing. --------------------------------------------- You're reading into my post far more than I intended! I did NOT tie in tithing with homosexuality. I did ask you where you think the dividing line is and why you chose that 'line in the sand'. You still haven't answered that. ------------------------------------------ Lynne wrote: Neither do I believe in abortion. What about the Catholics, they agree with me on certain moral issues. However, they teach a false gospel, so why mesh words together. No, if there is only a RCC church available to me to worship, NO, I will not go to it. Again, Lynne, on what basis did you decide that they have a false gospel? And how did they get to that point of a false gospel? You wrote this and I'd ask you why it doesn't apply to you on this issue of the RCC 'I don't have to have ALL of the answers as the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches, they do have all the answers. NO, you don't need to get every detail in the bible right. And yes, I agree that certain issues are important to get right. Why critize so many other denominations over things like getting the tithing issue right and every detail of scripture. Are they not your brothers and sisters in Christ? I'm talking about Christians with changed hearts. Not Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Catholics, those who are lost. You claim certain theologeans, more studied than you are wrong. Lynne, I've known some very 'christian' Catholics who certainly seemed to have a changed heart. Ditto for some of our SDA friends and relatives. So, I'm not sure that externals are a good method of determing where to go to church, do you? It really comes back to doctrine. And, if a church teaches something that goes against what the New Testament plainly teaches, or tries to drag folks back into the Old Covenant---you really shouldn't be there. Agreed? | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 317 Registered: 10-2005 |
Loneviking wrote: "Hannah, please forgive me if this seems unkind. However, I and Dennis (along with others) warned you about things that we saw in the Free Methodist church over on the Womens Ordination thread. I told you then that any church that can find a Biblical reason to ordain women was a church in which you would find other theological problems. I told you then that their view of what the Bible was sure looked a lot like the deceitful language that SDA's use." Does that now make them SDAs or too much like SDAs? It has been my experience that it is the SDA's who are trying to look like everyone else. You sound more like an SDA calling denominations that don't agree with you deceitful. SDAs like some of the same music as I do. Does that make me stop listening to that music because it is SDA music? __________________________________________________________________________________________________ You also said: "Didn't Dennis make a comment on the statement about giving that it sure seemed as if they meant 'tithe'? Hannah, you really have to leave. You need to find a true, Evangelical church that adheres to what the Bible says. It should be elder driven, it should believe in Verbal, Plenary inspiration, there should be women in complementary roles but not as pastors or elders, there should be plenty of expository teaching; plenty of mission/ourtreach oppourtunities; and if all of these are present, the church will be growing." It is my guess that you have narrowed your studies down to one, two, maybe three denominations that adhere the closest to the truth. You also wrote: "Would you then join a UCC congregation that teaches that the Bible allows practicing homosexuals to be church members and clergy?" You started talking about homosexuality, the RCC and tithing. Nobody else here brought it up. If you are not connecting it to anything in this thread, why are you bringing these things up. Of course there are saved Catholics and SDAs. Or there would be no Irish in heaven. But there are clearly some groups that push people away from Jesus and religion due to their false teachings. I believe the SDAs and Catholic religions do that. They are "works" based religions. The religious denominations that you are putting down for what you think are errors are not trading "works" for salvation like the SDA and Catholics teach. That is where I think the line should be drawn - works for salvation. Because those works replace Jesus. What Jesus did for us is the only way we can be saved. As for what Mary said, my feelings on this matter ditto hers as follows: "Of course there is Truth. Jesus himself IS truth, and has promised us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. The more we submit to Him and walk in His light, the more Truth we will learn - and the more we will realise we don't know. Who are we to judge another man's servants? You ask "Where (and how) do you draw the line?" Methinks we DON'T. We walk with God, ask Him for wisdom . . . and ask Him to draw the line. He will do it for each of his children - and it may not always be at the same place even for the same child." __________________________________________________________________________________________________ I disagree with you. I am following Jesus, I am no longer following Old Testament laws for salvation. That is the difference between the SDAs and the others. The other churches that don't have all the little things right in your opinion, do have one thing right. You are not saved through tithing, etc. Tithing is not dragging a person through the Old Covenant unless one tithes for salvation. I've never known a Baptist to tithe for salvation. Because every denomination that doesn't go along with what you believe the New Testament says, doesn't make the core of it wrong. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2353 Registered: 3-2004  |
Rafael, Bienvenidos a FAF. I have put you on my prayer list. Father in Heaven, Thank you that you are the I AM, the Alpha and Omega. Thank you for Jesus. Without his sacrifice, there would be no hope for us. Be with Rafael and his family at this time. Hold him tight in your awesome hands and let him know that you will take care of him. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, Lynne, you still haven't told me how you would evaluate a church. Mary, you haven't either. The SDA church does a real number on it's members. Officially, SDA's believe in 'thought inspiration', and they believe that there are errors in the Bible. I haven't heard this specifically taught, instead what is taught is to trust dear old EGW as she had the visions that showed how to put the truths of the Bible together---right? Further, the method of Bible study was what? Prooftexting---using the exact same methods as William Miller did to come up the 1843 date. He used prooftexts, he used arguments that sounded good and then provided texts to back up his arguments. Now---is that what a church is supposed to do? I hope both Lynne and Mary can say 'no'. There was a thread going on womens' ordination. Hannah mentioned that she belonged to a Free Methodist church in which the doctrine seemed right but they ordained women. Several of us went over to take a look at the site. I mentioned specifically that the Free Methodist statement on the what the Bible is sounded very much like the SDA statement. When you got through, you really don't know what type of inspiration they believe in or what method they use to study the Bible. I was also concerned about the women pastors. Dennis homed in on the tithe problem, and said (paraphrasing) that it seemed unBiblical. Stan had another issue with the way they phrased there take on what is required for salvation. So, warning bells are going off----why? The root cause is the way that they approach the Bible and the way that they study the Bible. This in turn leads to error. And what happened? Sure enough, as Hannah posted, alongs comes the tithe missive along with the article promoting Sunday sabbath. It all comes from a wrong apporach to Scripture and it comes out in doctrines that clearly contradict what the Bible says. I'll also add that Stan, Dennis and I don't see 'eye to eye' on every issue---I'm not a Calvinist. I believe that BOTH predestination and free will are at work. So, it's not a case of 'birds of a feather' ganging up on another group. Then, Mary and Lynne don't seem to like me or anyone else trying to tell Hannah that she needs to look at the beliefs of a church! To listen to you two, there is no unanimity in Christianity--which is just wrong. That charge is the same old SDA nonsense that I often hear--"how can I leave as nobody agrees on anything outside the church". What a bunch of nonsense! So, lets get back to the issue, which is NOT fellowship. Fellowship is mingling with other Christians in mission work, or in community Bible studies, things of that sort. The issue is the church community that one chooses to join and what it believes. You have to have a way to evaluate this and the instruction I get from the Bible is that they have to hold to verbal, plenary inspiration and if they do that, then the doctrines will fall into line. FWIW, I've belonged to a Church of Christ, an Evangelical Free, an independent Baptist with Southern Baptist Roots, and now an independent Evangelical church that is much like the E.V. Free. All hold nearly identical beliefs on core issues. There is definite unanimity among a great many churches and I could give you a very long list of them. The one common factor to all of these is that they hold to verbal, plenary inspiration and a sound hermaneutic that recognizes that there is a New Covenant,and that this New Covenant is authoritative over the Christian. If you find a church that doesn't clearly believe and state this---your're in the wrong place. If you want to say I'm a bigot for that--so be it. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dear friends, As I have followed along on this discussion, I have noted a rather unsettling, and confrontational tone. I have to tell you I don't like it. This is a forum for sharing, comforting, educating, and seeking. All questions are legitimate, and all opinions are valued; even when our understanding differs. As we travel this road together and share this FAF journey,I hope we can continue to lift each other up, and share each others burdens, without judgement. Heaven knows there are enough other websites for verbal fisticuffs and gunplay. Conciliatorily, Randy | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2004 |
Welcome Rafael, We are very happy you have joined us. You will find this group to be a supportive, and helpful lot. We don't always agree on doctrine or theology, but we respect each other's right to question. I will pray for you and your family as this is a trying time for all. Love your family and continue to pray for God's guidance. Your brother in Christ, Randy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 442 Registered: 7-2004  |
Loneviking, Lynne and Hannah, I have been lurking trying to decide if, when and how I wanted to add my $.02. My first thought is that if doctrine isn't important, why should we or anyone leave the SDA church. Our local church spent very little time on the "problem" doctrines. And it had a number of wonderful, friendly, grace-centered folks. If official doctrine didn't matter, I can't see any reason to have left or to encourage others to do the same. Then we move to the question about which doctrines are important to have right. I have pondered this as I've lurked and I think that the list is fairly basic: Soundly Trinitarian; Emphasis that we are sinners who do not & can not merit salvation, but only accept this gift through faith; Salvation is based on Jesus declaring us righteous, not our being made righteous; Recognition that the body of Christ is larger than their own group; and Scripture is the only authority. I would welcome comments and discussion about what else is essential. There are additional beliefs that are important to me, particularly because of my experience with SDAism, but I'm unwilling to conclude that they are critical: Verbal, plenary inspiration; Freewill giving instead of tithing; Sabbath is fulfilled rather than changed; and Monergism. As we were transitioning out of SDAism, we attended a UMC congregation for about 6 months. Even though the denominational doctrines do not match my list of what is important very well (at all?), that church was a good place for us during the time we were there. And it met my list of essential teachings. One of the lingering fallacies of SDAism is the emphasis on having or finding the "perfect" church and judging others on that basis. Doctrine is important, but not every doctrine is crucial. The important, central question is whether a church teaches the true Gospel of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone or whether they have added requirements to this Gospel. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 436 Registered: 7-2000 |
I would agree with much of your post, Ric, but I have a question for you: How can Scripture be the only authority without a belief in verbal, plenary inspiration? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 443 Registered: 7-2004 |
Scripture may still be the only authority, but the authority of all Scripture is reduced when verbal, plenary inspiration is set aside. This is a different problem than adding additional authorities to the Scripture (such as popes, early church fathers, prophets, or traditions). | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 424 Registered: 8-2004 |
Ric_b, Thank you for your post on the essentials. I agree with your listing, both of 'essentials' and of the points that are 'important' (with the caveat that I'm not sure wht Monergism is - perhaps it's the belief that it is Solely God's work in us that brings us salvation? Loneviking, It is my understanding that as we grow in Jesus, we will come to see Reality more clearly, and be able to discern error and irreality better as well - both in ourselves and in others. And as we learn, we are to act on our new knowledge. I also believe that God works with us where we are, and does not always bring each person to each point at the same time, or in the same order. I understand that when I was an SDA, and later a member of the SDARM, God was working with me and teaching me in spite of the errors rampant in those churches (and in my own heart). That does not mean that the SDA/SDARM doctrines (or my own internal understandings) were right. In fact many of them were outright wrong, or at least partially based on wrong assumptions. As I learned and grew (and God changed my heart, enlivened my spirt, gave me assurance of salvation, and showed me the clear heresies of SDAism), I was released from, and called out of SDAism. I was freed from many bitternesses, and inferiorities, and superiorities I'd been bound to. With that 'freeing' came the humiliating realisation that all my life I'd been sure that I was 'right' and I hadn't been! The realisation that I wasn't a member of the 'chosen few' who 'had the truth' and who were therefore able to look at the rest of the world with a condescending pity. I was just a human whom God had rescued and chosen as his child, a very small fish in a HUGE ocean. And God may send the other 'fishes' to places where they can learn from Him which look plain 'wrong' to me. (for example, there are people who are still SDA whom I have no doubt God is working with, and leading - as well as people who have settled in there in opposition to God's leading.) That I can trust Him to teach me what I need to know, when I need to know it. And that He will bring others to where they need to be when they need to be there (sometimes using fellow Christians to teach, but not to take the place of the authority of the Holy Spirit). Doctrine is important. It is also something that God doesn't nessessarily straighten us all the way out at once on. At the same time to willfully go where we know deception is practiced, and the fundamental truths of Christianity (that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, Salvation by Grace thru faith,etc - Ric's list is a good one) and just gloss it over with 'but it's good enough I guess' is dangerous to our spiritual health.  That's why I said earlier: ""Where (and how) do you draw the line?" Methinks we DON'T. We walk with God, ask Him for wisdom . . . and ask Him to draw the line. He will do it for each of his children - and it may not always be at the same place even for the same child." For Hannah, I'm praying that God will show her and her husband what to do, when, and where. And I trust He will! Hopefully this explains my position a bit. Clear as mud? Blessings, Mary | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 437 Registered: 7-2000 |
Ric wrote: Scripture may still be the only authority, but the authority of all Scripture is reduced when verbal, plenary inspiration is set aside. This is a different problem than adding additional authorities to the Scripture (such as popes, early church fathers, prophets, or traditions --------------------------------------------- I'd like to see an example. I have never seen any group, that set aside verbal, plenary inspiration that DIDN'T bring in or have an outside source of authority (or agenda such as the 'social gospel). That is precisely the reason WHY all of the groups I've ever seen reject this form of inspiration. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2000 |
Mary wrote: Doctrine is important. It is also something that God doesn't nessessarily straighten us all the way out at once on. --------------------------------------- O.K., I can agree with that. Mary also wrote: At the same time to willfully go where we know deception is practiced, and the fundamental truths of Christianity (that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, Salvation by Grace thru faith,etc - Ric's list is a good one) and just gloss it over with 'but it's good enough I guess' is dangerous to our spiritual health. That's why I said earlier: ""Where (and how) do you draw the line?" Methinks we DON'T ------------------------------------------ What!?? You just drew the line in the first statement, and then erased it in the second! Mary, there is no logic in these two statements--they are a 'non-sequitur'. I would agree with the first part of the statement, and absolutely reject the second. Look, you take the first statement as your standard and try your best to find a church community that fits that standard. That is you doing, you trying, you looking for a church home. WHAT you find, and WHERE you find it---I'll agree that we can leave that up to God. I do have a real hard time believing that God would put you into a congregation that is really 'off base' on the essentials--especially when there are so many faithful churches out there. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2004 |
Loneviking, did you notice what immediately followed the 'we don't'? I said, "We walk with God, ask Him for wisdom . . . and ask Him to draw the line." Mary |
