| Author | Message | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2005 |
I'm trying to sort through an archived article in Christianity Today called "Rediscovering the Sabbath" which calls the Sabbath an "important but difficult discipline" for today's Christian. Question: Is the Old Covenant still binding for today's Jews? http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/7ta/7ta38a.html | ||
| Russkellyphd Registered user Username: Russkellyphd Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006  |
The Gentile never was under the Old Covenant. Therefore we must assume that when the Bible says that the Old Covennat ended, then it must have ended for the Jew (Heb 8:10-13; 10:1; Rom 7:4; 2 Cor 3:10-18; Ehp 2:14-17; Col 2:14-17, etc). In 1776 when the US signed the Declaration of Independence, it was immediately not '":under Engllsh law" --whether good or bad! It then took what was good from that law, re-worded it to fit US citizens, and created US law. That is what God did with the Old Covenant. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 161 Registered: 11-2005 |
Russ -- I like your example of the Declaration of Independence. Regarding the question, "Is the Old Covenant still binding for today's Jews?", there are a few links that we might find useful. Orthodox Jewish viewpoint: http://www.aish.com/shavuotsinai/shavuotsinaidefault/Tablets_for_Living__.asp Messianic Jewish viewpoint: http://www.netivyah.org.il/English%20Web/MidrashaArticles/messianic_theology.html Christian viewpoint (Clay Peck - former SDA pastor): http://www.graceplace.org/default.aspx?pid=58 Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks, Jorgfe, for the websites. The Messianic Jewish viewpoint is this: "But now it is by the New Covenant that Messianic Jews can live according to the Torah" It also goes on to say this: "So for us Jewish believers in Yeshua it is right and proper that we should observe Shabbat and the Jewish holidays as outlined in Leviticus 23. It is noticeable in the book of Acts that Paul observed for himself the Jewish holidays. It is proper that we should have our sons circumcised on the eighth day. Notice that Paul arranged for Timothy to be circumcised because Timothy's mother was a Jewess, but at the same time Paul would not stand for Titus to be circumcised because he was in every way a gentile. It is proper and right that we should abstain from eating pork and shrimp and catfish and oysters and especially food containing blood. It is proper that we should identify with our people even if the vast majority of them are not believers in Yeshua. The Land of Israel is our land. The promises of God to Israel are ours by faith." So, this is what I meant by my question. It clears up questions I had in the article I referenced from CT. Of course the Orthodox Jews would not call the Mosaic Covenant "old," and they would still consider themselves under that covenant. Anyone else care to comment on this? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2327 Registered: 3-2004  |
My brother, in Montana, belongs to a Messianic Jewish congregation. I remember talking to the Rabbi. He told me that they still practice rituals that were not done away with when Jesus died and was resurrected. I do not remember what all of them are. I will have to write and ask him. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1340 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jan, That article you posted from Christianity Today just shows how really mixed up a lot of the evangelical world is on the issue of the Sabbath, and trying to transfer Sabbath to Sunday. Colleen and Jeremy had an excellent dialogue over on www.challies.com if you search for the article "Call the Sabbath a Delight", and it is linked on this forum on a thread by that name, then you will find another article but a very enlightening discussion on this topic. Stan | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2005 |
Stan, help me out a bit. I couldn't find the article you recommended. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1107 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jan, here is the link to the discussion on challies.com: http://www.challies.com/archives/001639.php It has gotten quite interesting the last several posts. "Johnny C" says that Jesus had to return to heaven to continue His work and that He has to utter the words "It is finished" again--I guess those words meant nothing the first time and the Cross wasn't good enough! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 22, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1342 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Thanks for re-posting that link. Wow! I had not been paying attention recently. Just when you thought that discussion would die, it gets going. I would just say that anyone who has missed this discussion is really missing something. If you want to sharpen all the arguments on Sabbatarianism, then go to that blog and follow the discussions. Anyone can post a comment as well. This blog is read by most folks who consider themselves Reformed, as well as a broad spectrum of other Christians. I have been interested in the comments. Apparently, this was the most responded to article on that blog in a long time. Many of us here at FAF have posted messages. Colleen and Jeremy have distinguished themselves spending a lot of time developing the arguments for the New Covenant. So, if anyone who is new to this site, or wants some great modeling about how to discuss the Sabbath, then please take the time to read this article and comments. Stan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2005  |
The comments of Collen and Jeremy are very good because they target the specific objections. But they not only provide an answer to objections, they define the Biblical perspective from a Christ-centered point of reference. Also they are short and condenset very well what many of us elieve about NC. Many will be blessed by reading them. I pray for this | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 327 Registered: 2-2001 |
"When Sabbath comes, commerce halts, feasts are served, and all God's children play." This was as far as I could read. Never have I seen feasts served that there were not poor souls slaving to get that feast out or cleaned up. Sabbaths were my busiest day of the week. We fed breakfast and lunch in our church and sometimes even dinner. I was exhausted come Saturday night! | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 310 Registered: 10-2005 |
That was why I believed that if it was in my heart to "try" to keep the Sabbath, I figured sometimes that would be enough. My first Pastor used to say, the Sabbath was his busiest work day of the week. So for years, I just figured if it was in my heart to do this important thing, to keep the Sabbath, in order to please God, God would accept me. However, I sometimes didn't know what action on the Sabbath was really a sin. But usually, I knew I sinned breaking the Sabbath day many times. And as I was taught, with Adventist proof text. You break one commandment, you have broken them all. And so, I could never please God, so why bother. I was in the dark, lost, and I didn't know that. I'm glad to be free in Christ and have the true Sabbath rest inside me. I'm glad I've learned that here in this forum. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow! Stan, Colleen and Jeremy -- you have been collectively doing a great job at http://www.challies.com/archives/001639.php You definitely did an excellent job of exposing Linda as an "undercover" Seventh-day Adventist. It is interesting how they try to maintain their cover. When the "Son" shines on it, they run for cover! Great work, and may the Lord be blessed. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 188 Registered: 11-2005 |
It looks like Johnny C is the best thing that ever happened to that thread. He really exposes some of the ludicrous non-Biblical thinking of Adventism for all the world to see. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2345 Registered: 3-2004 |
I finally stayed up past midnight last night to read the things Stan, Colleen, and Jeremy wrote on the Challies website . God is using each of you. Praise God for the work He has done through each of you. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3453 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, your observation was one that kept disturbing me about that thread as well: the deliberate attempt of most of the Adventist posters to conceal their Adventism. Why on earth do they feel a need to conceal that if they believe it's truth? I see this nearly universal need to conceal that identity to be another evidence of the darkness at its core. These people aren't actively taught to conceal their Adventism, yet almost all of them (as I used to feel it necessary to do) feel their arguments are more powerful if they're not recognized. At some deep level they know their arguments can be broken down. The shame of recognition is not part of being a child of the light; it's part of being in darknessóeven if that fact is not quite conscious. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2001 |
Colleen, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Ken Cox, Leo Scriven, Mark Fox and Revelation Seminars. I helped put them all on, and we always had a meeting before hand to instruct the participants on disclosure. We were to only disclose that we attended the Adventist church when directly asked. We were never to say that the seminar was sponsored by the SDA orginization. We were told that people would reject the seminar and not give it a chance if they knew up front who was putting it on. As a dutiful subject I belived what the "authority" said. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 418 Registered: 8-2004  |
 Some ARE taught to conceal their Adventism. They are taught, when selling books to say "We are Christian". They are taught, when quoting EGW, to say "My favorite author", or "an inspirational writer". They are taught to fear recrimination when they DO speak up and say who they are. They are taught to expect persecution . . . and to be thankful that they are privileged to be so different than "the world". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3456 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Violet and Mary. They are taught to conceal. I'm remembering my early years of "indoctrination" in schoolóI wasn't actually taught to conceal because I never really did something that would require that concealing. But indirectly, you're rightóby example I was taught to conceal. I remember those "my favorite author" and "an inspirational writer" phrases...those are didactic statements to impressionable listeners. And of course, those seminar personnel and colpourters are taught to conceal. You're totally right. Even though I was "taught" not to lie or be ashamed of who I was, still I always knew that I shouldn't reveal my identity unless pushed to the wall, so to speak, because I would not be taken seriously. That evasion and concealing become such a part of one's existence that they don't feel like imposed teachingsóthey're part of the warp and woof of being Adventist. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 413 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, You said, "I always knew that I shouldn't reveal my identity unless pushed to the wall" Do you think we should call that the "Amway syndrome" Richard |
