| Author | Message | ||
| Xsra Registered user Username: Xsra Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2005 |
Satan has opened up an old wound inflicted upon me by the Sabbath Rest Advent church back in 1997. Back then I received a signed, open letter from the Australian church rebuking me for bringing out into the open evils that the ministers and church were concealing. Recently, several people who had signed that letter contacted me and confessed that they had been wrong and asked me to forgive them. I did so immediately. They then intended to go to the next camp meeting and openly retract their actions. They did this, but then the minister convinced one of them that he had done no wrong by signing that letter in the first place. This brother therefore stood up and confessed his mistake to the church and again united himself to that original letter. I have not heard from him since, but those who apologised to me assure me that he has reneged and is with the church again. I honestly do not expect him to contact me, as I have always considered him to be a very servile, two faced person who looks after his own back only. But it leaves me wondering whether others will also reneg and go back to the church. I feel as though an old wound has been freshly opened and had salt poured in. It is always nice to receive an apology, as it takes away a terrible burden; but to then have the apology retracted again makes me wish that it had never been made in the first place. This is now a very uncomfortable predicament. I had learned not to think about the horrible things I had seen while in the SRA church. But now they have been brought back up again and I fear that Satan is wanting to drag me into it all over again. It makes no sense to rebuke a man, then apologise, then rebuke him again. I honestly can't see that God is in this at all. I feel like I'm being crucified over and over by those people. I had left them alone; it was them who contacted me again, only to open up an old wound. What do you think about this? Do you think God is in this? Rob | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 985 Registered: 7-2004 |
Rob, I cannot explain why this discomfort has been foisted upon you. I don't like to think that God wants to hurt, and then rehurt you, but He can take this situation and use it to make you stronger, or more compassionate, or fit for whatever purpose God would have for you. Our lives are a tapestry that we are in no position to see the full effect of. One day you will be able to look back and see how God has used you to bless someone else because you have experienced what you have. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 642 Registered: 7-2004 |
Rob, James 1:13,14 says, "Let no one say WHEN he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by His own lust." God is NOT in this action. He does not make evil happen. James does not say "if" we are tempted but WHEN we are tempted. There is no safeguard against temptation or evil befalling us. It will happen and God has promised He will never leave us or forsake us. We have His presence through thick and thin. I think this is what Paul meant when he said "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus CHrist, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For just as the sufferings of CHrist are ours in abudndance, so also our comofrt is abundant through Christ." (2 Cor. 1:3-5) God often comforts me, not by changing the circumstances of my life, but by changing my attitude towards them. I am so sorry that you are hurting AGAIN. Those kind of hurts are the most disparaging. Injury on top of injury. "Indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would NOT TRUST IN OURSELVES, BUT IN GOD who raises the dead; who delivered us from so great a peril, and will deliver us. He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us." (2 Cor.1 9,10) Though He is not bringing this hurt on you, He will love you through it and bring some peace, comfort, insight, wisdom or joy BECAUSE you have endured with Him. This is the message of Romans 8:28. All things work for our good because of the love we have for Him and the grace and love He bestows on us. Hang on to Jesus, Rob. Denise | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2006 |
Could I offer a different tact, this may seem harsh but every SDA I meet now who knew me from my SDA days knows to run, and I don't mean walk quickly. I ask such pointed questions as do you still follow that Satanic prophet? Do you still believe the law is in any way gong to help you, if you want to soft sell it you can ask questions such as what new truths has the church gained since Ellen died. This sounds harsh but SDA's think they are the remnant church and have the greatest truth given to man, you would be totally amazed by the respect you will recieve when they know you know their beliefs are right next to Jehovahs Witnesses in theological correctness. If you did some incorrect thing by exposing their evil secrets then apologize, if you were correct then throw their letters in the trash unopened. Consider your self lucky I'm still waiting for my letter of apology As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3533 Registered: 12-2003  |
Rob, I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's so hard to take when people "turn on" you. God has a way of allowing us to walk through things that strip us of our "security" and equilibrium so we will learn to trust only Him. I have been so aware that ultimately each of us stands ALONE before God. He wants us to acknowledge Him to be all we need and to ask Him to be enough. God has blessings of peace and intimacy in store for you in this as you acknowledge your suffering and rejection to Him and invite Him to fill the places where unfairness has robbed you of human justice. As Denise said above, "Hang on to Jesus, Rob." Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2005  |
Dear Rob, I believe that you are now battling with the cultic spirit of adventism, with mind control. I believe that because of this mind control that person, who initially recognized his mistake, now turned and accused you again. In this situation, the fear is very real that, perhaps, it is possible that the other can do the same. And more, itís possible that you can also turn and acknowledge that you were wrong, like the church people said. This is because your past haunted you, and clinged to you, never letting you to live your life. I want to say, like many on this forum, that the freedom that Jesus gives is a real freedom, and you will have not to fear anymore about your past, and about your identity as an adventist, an identity youíre fighting now, the identity formed in the years when you have been under the mind control and cultic spirit of adventism. Even if it the past will be forever a part of your life, it will not dominate you any longer. Iíll hope that the way in which God rescued me from under the dominion of the spirit of adventism, my cultic identity, will be helpful to you in your struggle, and at least you will know that others have been were you are today. Iíll use the term ěcultic identityî to describe the mind-controlling spirit under which I have been. Iíll use it because it is useful to illustrate whatís happened when people are subjected to mind control. In a real sense their normal identity is changed. Itís like they have a double personality, they have a double mind. The normal identity is the way people act in anormal environment, without the action of mind control on their lives. Letís say that someone proves that a biblical doctrine, like investigative judgment, is wrong, is not biblically based, mor, itís opposed to the gospel. Des Ford magistrally did this thing, actually. A normal person, with a normal identity, will renounce the doctrine because it is obviously wrong. But, we are dealing with a cult, and people have, beside their normal identity, a cultic identity. Many in the church, even if the acknowledge that the investigative judgment is not a biblical, still uphold it because they have been educated to have faith in Ellen White and believe that the adventist church is the true church. I know a guy who, after he acknowledged before me personally that IJ is wrong, after some time, said that he still believe that IJ is true, and can be harmonized with the gospel, even if he, at this moment, cannot harmonize IJ with the gospel. On the base of a supposed, but not proved, harmony between IJ and the gospel, he thinks that Iím making a great mistake rejecting IJ and Ellen White. I saw in this case, first, his normal identity, and after this, his cultic identity. Itís like he has two brains, and in a real sense. One brain says: ěIJ has no support in the Bible. You must reject itî But the other brain, the cultic brain said: ěEllen White is a prophet of God. It will be awfull if I contradict her on IJ, after all, she predicted that many will reject her as a prophet and the IJ. I risk my eternal life, if I reject her.í You see? He is under mind control, but doesnít know. He thinks that he takes decision independently, but his mind operates under the assumption: what Ellen White says itís truth, it is truth, because God inspired her. Even if I have no basis in the Bible at this time, it will be a mistake to reject IJ, because I might contradict and fight with God. I saw this also in my life. When I discovered that Ellen White plagiarized, my normal self said ěThatís wrong, she is a false prophetî. But, the cultic identity said ěShe is a prophet, if God commanded her to do this, she made a good thing. His ways are not my ways, I cannot understand all that God does.î I was educated to believe that Ellen White is a true prophet, and to question her, means to question God. My capacity to discern between wrong and good, to analyze, and evaluate was supressed because, after all, how could I question God? How could I question HIS ONLY CHURCH? My cultic identity cannot allowed me to think freely, to evaluate if what she had done was good, or bad. Even if my normal self discovered that she cannot be excused, I still have a fear, actually a phobia, that I might, after all, be wrong. A fear which I cannot eliminate. Itís not about that the facts were not conclusive, that the proofs were not solid, but because of my cultic identity. My normal identity, which operates on facts, told me that I was right, my cultic identity, that I was wrong. One of my fear, and this is a real fear, not a phobia (phobia has no ground in reality, itís an irational fear), was that Iíll go back to church, confessed that I was wrong, that Ellen White is a true prophet, and be a very miserable man, because Iíll profess what my mind and conscience tells me that is a fake, a lie. I feared to be back in bondage, after all I questioned if I had not been still in the bondage to the SDA church. Now I see clearly that I had been in bondage to the adventis spirit. But in this time I feared that Iíll become like those who, after standing for what is truth, renegade, and come back. I saw this happened, and it is a real danger. The past with his cultic identity haunted me. How God rescued me? He had given me a new identity, Jesus Christ. One day I saw clearly that, even if I pretended to be a christian, the Sabbat was my identity. I was a Sabbath-keeper. My identity as a believer was the Sabbath, the sign of the covenant between God and his people, his children. I couldnít separated keeping the sabbath from being a child of God. One without the other, no way. But the Holy Spirit made me to see clearly the the christian identity means Christ, and Christ only, and Christ is not visible, like sabbath. I saw that I must embrace Christ as my true identity as a child of God, and this is sufficient. If Iíll have Christ, Iíll have all. But more, this means that I must reject my old identity, keeping the Sabbath. I must choose to walk by faith , not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7), and to repent of trusting in myself, in my good works, in my keeping of the Sabbath. I must choose to accept Christ whom I not see, instead of sabbath, which I can see. Also, this discovery empowered me to choose what was right, because His Word is powerful. I was not prepared for the peace and assurance of His love for me. Even if my flesh retains in it the wounds, I can tell that the situation is different now, I no longer fear that Iíll be back with the church, that Iíll be in bondage. And not because of myself, but because Iíll believe that God will not let me down. I still fight with what remains from my cultic identity, but itís the good fight of faith. I fear only to trust in myself, to give myself the glory which belongs only to God. Bob, I pray that God will give you a new identity in Christ, which will heal the old wounds, a true freedom in Christ. I hope that what I wrote was helpful, and if I was obscure, please, ask me and Iíll try to explain, and made clear what was not so. English is not my first language. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jackob, for me, you presented the back & forth, fear-based GRIP of the Adventist spirit so well! I went through that for years without even attending an SDA church. I watched my parents begin to get free by Walter Rea's book and Ford, then, later, begin attending every 'Revelation Seminar', which came, and go right back into intense Adventism and Ellen White like puppets. Back then, I couldn't understand it, what had happened to them until I learned about cults and mind control. You explain it well. God protect our minds in Christ Jesus and our understandings through the Holy Spirit, in his scripture. Cathy | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 766 Registered: 1-2003 |
Cathy2. I also experiencd the same thing with my mother. When I was liberated, I began sharing with her all I had found...and for a while, she too was free in the Gospel. Then my SDA preacher brother stepped in and guilted her into attending the SDA church again and suddenly I began hearing "Sabbath, sabbath, sabbath!" and time of trouble is near and that the devil makes a counterfit for everything that is real (IOW: my experience vs. hers). It was terrible. She truly thinks I am lost...and she was free for months!!! She was happy and light and free and now she is heavily burdened again. It is so hard to turn the SDA tapes off...and isn't it so much easier to slide back into the old comfortable way than to step out in faith?!? | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks for sharing that, Pheeki. You are so right abouyt the 'tapes' Put the nickle in and the Adventist-speak comes out. I was the same way as an SDA. Across the globe, the same words, phrases, explainations, myths, and defenses will come out; often word for word. Called 'loaded language' in cult recognition. It is very difficult to get through, past that. What is so, so strange, is that it was my parent's books, Rea's and Ford's, and their telling ME about them. That got me questioning Ellen and the church. My mother gave me Desmond Ford's tapes on Romans and I understood it for the first time. So they (mostly my mom) were the catalyst for me to first see the problems. Now, exactly like you said, Sabbath, End Times... obssession, all over again, just like growing up in it. Every time a 'Revelation Seminar' comes to town, I growl. I just know my parents will rush off to it. Like they haven't been to a hundred before, including all the ones in my childhood. I know they are elderly and ailing, now, and want the comfortable and familiar, but still... How much is enough? Perhaps, it is becasue it's so hard to understand. I never could get a handle on the IJ in 12 years of SDA school Bible classes. Where was Jesus? When? Why, exactly? Which compartment? Not until I read the explanations about the lie of it (Ford's). Sheesh. I sure was glad and relieved to learn about the simplicity of the cross. My brain untangled. Cathy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3541 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, what an excellent description of the battle between reality and cultic mind control. You vividly described what I suspect most of us here have experienced. Thank you for taking the time to explain this phenomenon so well. Pheeki and Cathy, I have seen the sort of thing you described. I really believe that "flipping" in belief is because, as Jackob described, they haven't fully let go of all their Adventist identity and allowed Jesus to be their only identity. This is a spiritual battle, not merely an intellectual one. Intellectual knowledge of truth, as you both show, Pheeki and Cahty, does not result in permanent change as long as one's spirit is still in bondage to the spirit of Adventism. If facts were all that mattered, people would be able to find freedom just from knowing what happened. Clearly, however, this knowledge doesn't set them free. Their spirits need to be united with Jesus, allowing Him to replace the "icons" (Sabbath, etc.) that took His place in their deepest places of loyalty. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on March 14, 2006) | ||
| Xsra Registered user Username: Xsra Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you all for your encouragement. Jackob, I agree with your description of a cultic mind, although I feel these people are under the control of their minister as opposed to EGW. You see, this minister is supposedly the only person in the SRA church who is able to receive light from God for the church. This was also true of the previous minister. Yet both ministers in their turn used the same writings of EGW to support completely opposing views. The first minister, Fred Wright, used EGWs writings to support NOT rebuking open sin, whereas the present minister, Andreas Dura, uses the same author to support rebuking open sin. I was there when FW did this and I was there when AD did the opposite. Against my better judgment I followed FW on this matter and forgave all open sinners in the church, only to have AD come along and have the church twice sit in judgment of me (the first being overruled, the second being carried), there being no acknowledgement whatsoever of any changes being made nor any confessions for past failures in not calling sin by its right name! It was then that better judgment kicked in for me. My eyes opened and I saw that I had been taken for a ride by FW and AD. From that time on I determined never again to follow anyone other than Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible. However, that said, I see only harmony between the Bible and EGW. It wasn't so much the fact that open sin had continued in the church, but the way it was covered over and denied by AD and the church. That was an open sin of dishonesty, and my conscience could not accept that. I am willing to forgive all manner of sin, even dishonesty, but I am not willing to accept open dishonesty by a minister and church elders. The line must be drawn somewhere. I did not and do not enjoy taking this stand at all, but I have no choice. These people were deceived as I was, under FW, but when AD came along and openly denied that there had ever been unrebuked open sin in the Australian church, the problem now was not one of open sin but dishonesty. For me to remain would have been a statement in support of a lie, and I simply could not do such a thing. I would sooner die eternally than have to sit on God's throne as a liar. There's simply no excuse for not telling the truth, especially in a church. If those people were under the spell of EGW, wouldn't they do as she suggests regarding open sin and sins in ministers? Yes! But they didn't, and neither did I while under FW. This shows that we were under the control of FW, not EGW. True, he used her writings to manipulate the situation to suit himself and his personal circumstances, and we fell for it; but as soon as AD used the same writings for an opposite purpose, I saw that something was very wrong, yet the others didn't. I saw this because I saw what EGW says about such behaviour in God's church. But not only EGW, the Bible! Yet these other people still do not see it. They are still looking to AD, who has a spell on them. But he has nothing on me, and he knows it, and he's troubled by me because I am an honest man who is now warning others to be more careful than I was. But thank you for your thoughtful words. Rob | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-1999 |
There is a definite mental pattern in leaving a "believed lie"!! I have seen moments when my mother has "understood" the simplicity of the Gospel. She has "understood" why the Sabbath is not an issue; she has "understood" the state of the dead, etc... But each time this "understanding" is rejected. She intellectually understood. The truth was clear to her. However, she lacked the most important element---she didn't "believe it". She understood it but she did not believe. When placed next to the norms and standards of the "cultic personality" which Jackob described so well, what she understood was rejected. "In Christ", when we fully believe in Him, we have new norms and standards.....the old norms and standards (which embraced lies) are replaced by a new norm and standard which only embraces truth!! I know in my own experience, the point when I really begin to understand "the real truth", was when I began to desperately pray and search for it!! It was the same point where I stopped searching for a truth that "my" norms and standards found acceptable. I no longer cared what the truth was....I just wanted to know "THE REAL TRUTH"! I understood the truth for quite a while before I actually accepted it. It is the accepting of the truth that changes you...intellectually understanding it is not enough....you have to believe it. Praise God, I believed!!! All the Glory and All the Praise belong to the Lord Jesus Christ!!! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 991 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lori, you sparked something in me when you kept emphasizing "The Truth." In Adventist we were brainwashed into believing that the Adventist view was "The Truth." "The Truth" and the sense of pride that I was a respositor of "The Truth" was a very important part of my being Adventist. When I began to find out that all of those "Special Truths" were deception my whole world fell apart. I didn't know who to be upset with -- the church leadership for not being honest, my parents for doing everything in their power to keep me within the membership, or myself for being so gullible. The next phase was a searching phase, but there was no trust. I had to be fully convinced in my mind, against all odds, that I had to give up an old belief and replace it with "The Real Truth." I've never spent so much time in The Word as I do now, but I'm still searching and cleaning up the information I hold dear. An example is obvious in my understanding of The Trinity. It is so difficult for me to wrap my mind around One God comprised of Three Persons -- how did Christ appear to be independent of The Father and The Spirit while here on earth. Yes, he was in constant contact with them, but if God is one God, then they must have been within Jesus at the same time, but God spoke from heaven and the spirit alit up Jesus at the time he was baptized. God spoke from a cloud surrounding Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration. How can the persons of the Godhead be separated if they are One God? Thanks to Chris and his studies I'm hoping to still wrap my brain around this. Please tell me that my being able to perfectly comprehend this issue is not a salvational point! What I do know is that Jesus lived a human life, while remaining fully God, he spilled that God-blood on a cross to provide a propitiation for My sins, all of them, and he died a mortal death, lay dead for a time, and of himself became alive again, in the body, yet the body he had when he arose was much more than mere mortal. That glorified body will one day be like the glorified body he has provided for me. I don't deserve it, I've done nothing to earn it. I'll never be able to comprehend the type of love that was required for him to do what he has done for me, but it doesn't change the fact that I'll be eternally grateful. One day when I'm able to stand in the presence of God, covered in the perfection of Christ, I'll be able to begin knowing Him directly. I'm truly looking forward to that day. Until then I must continue to study, and remain clear that I'll never know all of "The Truth" until I know it with Him. Praise God for Jesus and the teaching of the heart by the Holy Spirit! Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2392 Registered: 3-2004  |
In thinking about my background and what led me away from Adventism, I at first did not realize that I had any cognitive dissonance. Looking back now, I see I did. I remember sitting in church and hearing the pastor quote EGW instead of the Bible. I was so disturbed by this because I thought that if there were any non SDAs in the service, they would not believe because it was not the Bible. After that day I never liked to hear her quoted. I did not remember much about the IJ or the state of the dead. My cognitive dissonance was with EGW. I still did not trust God. In my 12 step program I was told to trust my higher power. I remember telling God, "here I am not keeping the Sabbath and then I am told you can take away this eating disorder and I am not obeying you." I see that was cognitive dissonance. My program taught me how much God loved me. Another instance of cognitive dissonance was telling God I loved him, but not completely, so teach me what love is. This went on for a long time. Then one day I do not remember exactly how it happened, God let me know that when I love others it is showing love to God and that loving was shown by my helping others in any way I could. I was satisfied with that until two years ago, when I learned that all I need to do is love and accept Jesus and what he did for me. He lived on this earth, died, and was resurrected for me. I can see now that God was preparing me, a little at a time over a whole lot of years. I must have a hard head and I know I can be stubborn, but God did get through to me. Praise God for His patience. Praise God for Jesus. Praise God for the Holy Spirit. God, you are AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3564 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lori, you make such a good point about desiring truth. When we desire to know what is true and ask God to teach us, then He begins to make it clear. We have to be willing to know truth apart from our own familiar framework, or we will continue to bend what we learn to fit what we already know. Rob, I respectfully suggest that the reason the people in your church were not telling the truth is not because they were under the influence of FW as opposed to EGW. The reason they couldn't embrace truth is that they were under the influence of deception. The Adventist church was founded on deceptionóon doctrtines that the Bible does not teachóand Ellen White did endorse those doctrines, saying God showed her. The foundation of Adventism in all its forms included falsehood. With a twisted foundation, one cannot have a true, healthy, Bible-believing and teaching church built on top of that foundation, as we have discussed in reference to the continuation of the WCG. The people in your church could not uphold truth because they are committed to bottom-line deception. Unfortunately, Ellen White is part of this framework. Unless one is willing to let go of ALL one's existing framework and allow the Bible to speak whether or not it seems to agree with the framework, one won't find truth. One must submit oneself to God in the humility of being willing to let oneself be completely exposed before Him. When we humble as God to show us truth, He will. He won't, however, snatch the deceptive elements of our framework away from us unless we are willing to let them go. Colleen |
