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Xsra
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where do you suppose sin comes from?

I was thinking about this today and here's what I came up with.

When God created His creatures, He gave them free will, i.e. the freedom to obey or disobey God. If they obeyed, this would produce a righteous spirit; if they disobeyed, this would produce an unrighteous spirit, -- or sin. God didnít create or cause sin as such, but He provided for its existence. He had to do this, because there had to be a spirit that would be the opposite of righteousness if a person chose not to be righteous, otherwise they would be compelled to be righteous. So the very nature of free will itself made it necessary for God to provide for the possibility of sin.

I believe God created all of His creatures as righteous beings, and, as such, their nature generated goodness and obedience. But when Lucifer chose to disobey God, he gave rise to a new spirit that had never before been known in the universe. The possibility of its existence had always been there without Lucifer or any other creature being aware of it. But God had always been aware of it. When Lucifer gave rise to this spirit, he generated sin from within his own heart (mind). Then when he chose to serve it forever he became filled with it.

All humans are born with this disposition to sin in them. There is a spring or fountain of evil rising up from within the heart. This sin nature can only be cleansed away by God through repentance. When this takes place, God re-creates the person into a new being by putting His own Spirit into them. Now righteousness springs up from within them, just as God had intended in the beginning. But if they take their mind off God and choose to disobey, they again give rise to that spirit of sin. Now this must be cleansed away through repentance before they can be justified by God.

Therefore, while we can only generate sin from within ourselves, only God can generate righteousness ñ from within Himself. In other words, sin is always generated by disobedient creatures, whereas righteousness is always generated by God ñ from within Himself. The existence of sin reveals the existence of selfishness, whereas the existence of righteousness reveals the existence of God Himself in that creature. Sin always denies God, and God always denies sin. The two are complete opposites, and only one can exist in the heart at any time, and yet the possibility of the existence of either must always be there in order for free will to exist.

Your thoughts?

Rob
Willy430
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Humm...
You had me until the last paragraph, what about the new earth? There will be free agency and the absence of sin, you will notice the lack of any mention of the tree of good and evil in the new world.
Willy430
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Humm...
You had me until the last paragraph, what about the new earth? There will be free agency and the absence of sin, you will notice the lack of any mention of the tree of good and evil in the new world.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We can't "know" beyond what the Bible tells us. The Bible really doesn't tell us why or how Satan originated sin. We know he rebelled, but we know no details about it. We know there was war in heaven and that Michael and his angels fought the devil and his angelsóbut we know no details.

Further, the details surrounding the rise of sin are not about creatures' free will. Everything is about God's glory. The ultimate "value" in the universe is God's glory, not human physical life or free will. Ephesians continually reiterates that allóour being chosen and included in God, the churchóall is for the glory of God. Everything, even sin, will ultimately work out in conformity to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:11).

The righteousness we creatures have, at any rate, is not righteousness that comes from our choice. It is entirely the result of submitting to the blood of Jesus shed on our behalf. The righteousness we may have is NOT righteousness that develops IN us OF us. The righteousness we may have is only the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Further, we don't just HAVE Christ's righteousness; we BECOME His righteousness because He BECAME our sin and a curse (2 Cor 5:21; Gal 3:13).

The Bible does not teach that we become righteous. It teaches that we become Christ's righteousnessóand this righteousness is not about doing "right". This righteousness is about submitting to Jesus and accepting His spirit in us, bringing our dead spirits to life (and no, the Bible does not teach that our "spirit" is our "mind" or our "breath"). Our righteousness is our spirit made alive by the Holy Spirit and united with God because Jesus shed His blood into eternity.

Our sin is intrinsic in humanity ever since Adam and Eve. It is our dead spiritówe cannot avoid it or become free of it by choice. Only the Holy Spirit can bring us to life, and this miracle is possible only when we acknowledge our deep, fatal, inherent sin and submit to Jesus and His shed blood.

We are indebted to Jesus, and we cannot even choose to make any choice in the direction of life without the intervention of God. Our dead spirits have no attraction to life. God must intervene even to give us the ability to choose Him.

The Biblical truth of Jesus' supremacy and sovereignty is the most astonishing, freeing, paradigm-shifting reality in the universe besides the reality of Jesus, the cross, and the resurrection!

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Colleen,
In eternity past, God planned to create man for His own glory. He knew in advance that Adam would fall, and He and His Son planned the brutal death on Calvary that would bring us life.

God's ways are above our ways.

Stan
Heretic
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Wonderful post. If I had writing skills, I'd put it just the way you did.

The incredible discovery that no "decision", good deed, religious performance of any kind, NOTHING, has anything to do with my salvation is so humbling. Eph 1, Col 1, Rom 8 and 9 absolutely obliterate any conditional salvation schema. Even the faith that awakens us from spiritual death is a free gift from our Lord. Amazing! All I can do is respond to it out of gratitude and live my life for Him who saved me.

Heretic
Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Heretic!

Stan
Xsra
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and friends,

Thank you for your encouraging words. Please allow me to respond.

ìFurther, the details surrounding the rise of sin are not about creatures' free will. Everything is about God's glory.î
Actually, Satan used his free will to take the glory away from God.

ìThe righteousness we creatures have, at any rate, is not righteousness that comes from our choice.î

Yes it is; we choose Christ and His righteousness.

ìIt is entirely the result of submitting to the blood of Jesus shed on our behalf.î

Submitting to Christ is a choice.

ìThe righteousness we may have is NOT righteousness that develops IN us OF us.î

I never said it was, Colleen. I said that if we choose to obey God, this produces righteousness in us. I didnít mean the choice causes the righteousness, as though we create righteousness, but that the choice allows God to be in us. I donít feel it is necessary to always have to define the process of redemption every time I mention the word righteousness.

ìFurther, we don't just HAVE Christ's righteousness; we BECOME His righteousness because He BECAME our sin and a curse (2 Cor 5:21; Gal 3:13).î

I agree.

ìThe Bible does not teach that we become righteous. It teaches that we become Christ's righteousnessóand this righteousness is not about doing "right".î

I agree.

ìThis righteousness is about submitting to Jesus and accepting His spirit in us Öî

Submission involves choice. So does rebellion against God.

ìÖ bringing our dead spirits to life (and no, the Bible does not teach that our "spirit" is our "mind" or our "breath").î

Yes it does. ìAnd be renewed in the spirit of your mindî. Eph. 4:23. Mind is therefore spirit.

ìOur righteousness is our spirit made alive by the Holy Spirit and united with God because Jesus shed His blood into eternity.î

I agree.

"Our sin is intrinsic in humanity ever since Adam and Eve. It is our dead spiritówe cannot avoid it or become free of it by choice.î

Yes we can. We can choose Christ.

Colleen, I think the whole problem here is based on a misunderstanding. You are assuming I am saying certain things, and then you seek to correct me. I accept your good intentions, but I honestly feel they are misdirected. I hope I have clarified some things.

Rob

Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rob, perhaps I may be inferring some things from your words that you are not actually stating. If so, I apologize for my assumption.

We are, however, approaching this discussion from completely opposite paradigms. You see human choice (as I understand your posts) to be the font from which our outcomes spring. I see God's sovereign election and choice as the source of our ultimate outcomes.

Yes, we absolutely choose Christ or notóbut this choice is not even possible outside the umbrella of God's sovereignty. We are not born with freedom to choose. We are born "objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:4), dead in our transgressions and sins. We cannot choose Jesus apart from God's intervention, awakening our dead spirits to His grace. It is by grace we are saved, through faithóand that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Yes, Satan chose to sin; yes, Adam and Eve chose to sinóbut their sin was not intrinsic as our sin post-Adam is intrinsic. We are NOT born free; we are born condmened to death.

The righteousness in us really is NOT about our choosing to obey God. It "comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Romans 3:22). It is "apart from the law" and is "from God" (Romans 3:21).

Even though we can dissect our terms, I know that we are talking about two different understandings of how we become righteous. I understand our righteousness to be entirely in Jesus, not in us. When the Father looks at us, He sees us INSIDE Jesus. Our lives are hidden in Christ, as a paper hidden in the middle of a book is hidden there. When the Father sees us, He sees us as IN Christ, covered entirely by His perfection. None of what we ultimately present to God as righteousness is us at all.

Christ IS our righteousness.

The fact that our behavior gradually changes when we are in Christ is not part of our righteousness. That change is the reality of Christ living His life in and through us as we learn to submit and "get out of the way" of His life in us. But it is not part of our righteousness. Our righteousness IS Christ. Our changing behavior is the fruit of His righteousness covering us.

Further, our inherent spiritual death that causes us to be unable to choose Jesus without divine intervention is not the death of our minds. 1 Cor. 1 and 2 make it clear that hunman wisdom, knowledge, understandingóthe cognitive functions of the natural human mindódo not perceive spiritual truth. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Our spirits are the part of us that know God. They are not our minds.

John 4:21-24: Jesus told the Samritan woman that the time was now here when true worshipers would worship God in "spirit and in truth". "God is spirit," He said, "and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

This passage distinctly separates mind (cognitive thinking, recognition of facts or truth) and spiritówhich Jesus Himself likened to the essence of God. He was not saying we ARE God; He was identifying the fact that God IS 'spirit'óand we also have spirits that are other than our minds. We worship in spiritóthe part of us that receives the Holy Spirit's life and transformationóand also cognitively with our minds.

Our spirits know God and are the part of us that receive spiritual understanding. That understanding renews our minds and shapes the facts we know so they come into alignment with eternal truth.

Ephesians 4:23 does not equate "spirit" and "mind". It refers to the spirit OF the mind. This verse is translated in the NIV as the "attitude of your mind".

So yes, we can choose Christóbut not without His empowering. Everythingóeven the rise of sinówill ultimately be for the glory of God who "works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

There is faith involved hereóobjective faith in the promises and power of God who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:6).

Colleen

Helovesme2
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen wrote:
"The fact that our behavior gradually changes when we are in Christ is not part of our righteousness. That change is the reality of Christ living His life in and through us as we learn to submit and "get out of the way" of His life in us. But it is not part of our righteousness. Our righteousness IS Christ. Our changing behavior is the fruit of His righteousness covering us."

Yes. This is why we can rejoice to see the changes God brings in us without getting puffed up about it. This is why we can rejoice to see the changes He brings other people without being jealous. This is why, in Christ, we do not need to, ney, are warned against comparing ourselves among ourselves, as if we had something to boast - it is HIS work in us, our reasonable service.

Blessings,

Mary
Seekr777
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen I have a question.

You said, "We cannot choose Jesus apart from God's intervention, awakening our dead spirits to His grace. It is by grace we are saved, through faithóand that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9)"

Does God ever NOT intervene and awaken our dead spirit so that through grace we can be saved?

In Christ,

Richard


rtruitt@mac.com


Jackob
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus said to Lazarus, who was dead for three days in his tomb, "Lazarus, come out." And Lazarus heard and obeyed. But first, Jesus maked him alive, because no man dead can hear and choose to obey Jesus.

The order is simple: first we are awaken spiritually, and as a result, we believe, we choose Jesus. Our faith is not produced by us, but it's a part of God's gift of salvation.
Riverfonz
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
Colleen, Heretic, and Jackob have all said it well. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually immediately, and physically 900+ years later. We inherited Adam's fall, and therfore are all spiritually dead corpses--deader than any body in the graveyard. As Jackob said--which is a great analogy--God has to resurrect our dead souls with the same resurrecting Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did that when he resurrected Lazarus from the dead.That is a type of how God works to save us. We are saved only by His sovereign choice and grace. We can't even choose to follow Christ until after we have been born from above and regenerated. Since you now have Grudem's systematic theology, you can find an excellent discussion of this in chapters 32-34.
Jesus in John 6 says "No one can come to me unless the Father draws Him" and "All that the Father gives me will come to me." That Greek word for draw literally means to drag, or draw against gravity, or against free-will, and that is where we get the doctrine of irresistable grace.

There is an excellent short treatment of this topic that is easy to read and explains what Jesus meant in John 6, www.reformationtheology.com/2005/12/understanding_free_will_by_pas.php

I want to close this post by quoting Charles Spurgeon,

"I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody of his own free will returns to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say 'You are mine, and you SHALL be mine. I claim you for myself.' My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freeness of the will."

This is the very basic issue Luther fought the Roman church over in the Reformation. He said that 'if free-will contributes in any way, even in the slightest, to our salvation, then we know nothing of grace.'

Sola Gratia (by grace alone),

Stan
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You ask a question, Richard, over which many people argue. I can only refer to what the Bible says:

The knowledge of God is evident through creation so all men are without excuse. They suppress that knowledge by their wickedness, but they are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)

We are by nature objects of wrath, but God mercifully made us alive when we were dead in our sinsóEphesians 2:4).

We are saved by grace through faithóbut that not of ourselves; it is the gift of GodóEphesians 2:8. Even our faith is a gift.

Hebrews 2, 6, 10 issue warnings to people who have "been enlightened" not to fall away, because if they do, no sacrifice for sin is left. These warnings, I believe, are for people who have been confronted with the reality of Jesus but have not submitted themselves to Him in complete loyalty. They are the plants in the Matthew 13 parable that spring up quickly after the seed lands on the rocky soil, but they wither in the heat because they have no roots.

I really can't describe a "formula" for how the process of divine enlightenment and personal choice works. Clearly God ordains people's destinies, and the elect are called and chosen from before creation (Ephesians 1 and Romans 8). Yet God does reveal Himself to people clearly enough that they can choose to say Yes or No. The "rocky soil seeds" and the "seeds among the weeds" in Matthew 13 clearly describe the reality of the gospel landing in hearts that recognize the truth enough to respond, but they do not fully embrace Jesus and allow Him to deepen them and to be the focus of their lives.

The seeds that land on unresponsive hearts which the birds eat describes people who have no response at all to the gospel. Did God enlighten them at some moment and they said no, or did He not enlighten them? I can't say exactly what God does, but Romans 8 says all men are without excuse. Ephesians 4 also talks about the "Gentiles" who are "darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts."

I really can't completely answer your question, Richard. I believe God does elect and choose people, and He hardens others, as Romans 9 states. I also believe that everyone has choice under the umbrella of God's sovereigntyóand those choices have eternal consequences. John the Baptist identified Jesus as the light that lighteth every man. Exactly how He works in our sinful hearts to reveal Himself, I don't know. I know that God says that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

What I know is that I must be honest and accountable before Him. I must respond when He speaks. And I know that I must declare Jesus and the miracle of His finished work so others can also come to know Him.

How God brings hearts to the point of saying Yes or No, I don't know. I do know that we are born dead in sin, and only God's mercy brings us to faith.

Grateful for God's mercy,
Colleen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan--I just now saw your previous post. (I was called away as I was writing...) The Spurgeon quote is really great. It's kind of like another phrase I've heard: Before we are saved, we see the "doorway" to salvation ahead of us, and over the doorway we read, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." After we pass through that doorway, we look back at it and from that side we read over the door, "Chosen in Him before the creation of the world."

There is mystery here, but I must choose; God makes that much clear to me personally. And I now, on this side of knowing Him, realize clearly that He did awaken and pull me to Himself.

I also know that I had a desire from early childhoodówhich I cannot explain except that it came from Himóto know Jesus. Yet I had no idea what that meant until after He finally woke me up and made the gospel clear.

Gratefully,
Colleen
Cathy2
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Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Spurgeon quote rings of truth to me, too; and there is a deep mystery of God's here, which we cannot know and wrap all up, as Colleen said.

There were times in my life, where I consciously said, "I choose Christ"; sometimes, out loud. Once, long, long ago, against an occult spirit, which was extremely strong.

But, later, I realized that it was ONLY because Chirst had awakend, quickened my dead spirit/soul in the first place, and through his Holy Spirit, that I was even ABLE to think, say and do that, to turn away from whatever it was and to choose Christ; to turn to Christ, helpless, and HIS power for me. (Against an occult spirit, that's ALL one has. Why should it be different with anything else? Evil is evil)

On my own, in my own will--*willingness*? I have my doubts. There are many things in this life stronger and bigger than we are; our own temptations for one.

I, too, Colleen, had a desire for Jesus, since early childhood. I think it was all the memory verses--his Word--we got into us. His Word did its work within us, in time, and still does so. It did not come back void to him. In all the 'things' and places I went to, seeking God and that niche for God's love in my soul, I never let go of Jesus dying for our sins (even though I had no idea what it truly meant). God made sure that this, too, veered me straight, at the end of the day. He led me as I was, where I was, even as I tried and tried in my own self, for years.

I *thought* I was choosing, over and over. In reality, HE was resurrecting, growing and guiding me. Many times, when I had no idea he was or was delivering me from a heresy or worse. Looking back, I see him all over the place.

Eternally grateful. All Glory to Christ!
Cathy
Riverfonz
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Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Xsra,
Let me ask you a question. If I could show you a debate between Martin Luther the great reformer and Erasmus, the Roman Catholic scholar, which view would you think you would identify more with--the view of Luther or the view of Erasmus, the Catholic?

Erasmus, representing RCC wrote a Diatribe against Martin Luther attacking him on his view that man did not have free will with regard to salvation. This was published as "The Freedom of the Will" in Sept. 1524. Martin Luther published "The Bondage of the Will" in December of 1525. This work by Luther is considered by Reformation scholars to be the most important work ever on salvation by grace alone.

There is an excellent summary of this whole debate which is easy to read, and sums up both men's thoughts regarding this very important topic. Erasmus, the RCC appealed to human reason and the church fathers, while Luther appealed to scripture alone.

Today, liberal Adventism in Loma Linda is on the same level with sophisticated Catholicism. Both groups worship man's free will. Free will logically replaces the God of the Bible who is absolutely sovereign.

If a person reads this article posted below, and takes the time to follow the arguments, then logically Adventism, and the majority of evangelical Christianity, is only different from Roman Catholicism in that they don't have priests or rituals. But the basic theology of free will is still intact.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God? This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, Nobody. No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed. Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Here is the link to this article. www.prca.org/prtj/apr99.html#LutherandErasmus

If anyone is curious about what Luther's book "Bondage of the Will" is all about, then this is a great summary.

Stan
Cathy2
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good post, Stan.

One thing about scripture, it stops OUR thoughts.
Then the Holy Spirit gives us the mind of Christ, to spiritually understand.

In understanding the bondage of the my will or lack of willingness, these words in scripture stopped my own thoughts dead cold:

"...dead in our sins"

Dead.

Walking corpse.

Can a corpse resurrect itself to life?

Mine couldn't.

Thankfully, Jesus did, while I was dead; not seeing, hearing, understanding, 'willing'-- anything, but sensory flesh, human intellect, Western Rationalisim, my actions and Self. I knew nothing until knowing him by his resurrection power and grace.

Cathy
Xsra
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Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

Firstly, thank you for the nice link.

I recall reading some of Lutherís book ìThe Bondage of the Willî some years ago and I was impressed with his logic and his emphasis on grace. In the church I was with at the time they tended to focus on a mechanical understanding of salvation, and I found Lutherís approach quite refreshing.

I agree with Lutherís position on free will. Clearly, the unregenerate person has no freedom to serve God. But my original post on this thread had nothing to do with free will in relation to sinners. Rather, I spoke of sinless creatures giving rise to sin through freely choosing to disobey God. Somehow the conversation diverted to the gospel and whether a sinner has free will.

Nevertheless, itís an interesting discussion and Iím happy to continue in this vein.

Basically, if I were asked to explain the new birth as regards to free will, Iíd explain it as follows. We are born on this Earth with no freedom to serve God at all, possessing only the ability to recognise what is right and wrong and to desire after the right if we wish. Desiring after the wrong comes naturally, and of course we are able to do wrong. Desiring after the right is prompted in us by the Holy Spirit through the law of God in the conscience, but carrying it out is impossible in our own strength.

However, the moment we choose to serve God, He accepts our choice and carries out the righteous action Himself in us, and thus our faith justifies us. An example of this is seen in Abrahamís offering of Isaac. Abraham was willing to take the life of Isaac, and God accepted this as though he had carried out the work himself (Abraham, that is), without him actually carrying it out. Accordingly, God imputed this to him as righteousness.

James says, ìWas not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Jas. 2:21. God accepted Abrahamís works as a sign of his faith. Abraham could do no more. Likewise, the sinner cannot obey God of himself, but God accepts his intention to obey and carries this intention out Himself through His Spirit. In the same way, and Luther says the same thing in the link you cited, creatures make a choice but God does the actual works. In other words, when a sinner chooses to reject God, it is God who faithfully carries through the actions that are the sure result of this choice. He has to, for this is His role; nobody else can do it. In the same way, God faithfully carries through the actions that are the sure result of choosing to obey Him.

Again I thank you for pointing me to Lutherís inspired commentary.

Rob
Riverfonz
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Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rob,
I agree that we got off the track from your original post. That is probably because none of us really have the answers to what the Bible doesn't tell us.

However, we can infer from a lot of scripture that God created this world and humanity to glorify Him. God created man knowing that he would fall. But this was all for His own glory. God even provided in advance--long before the foundation of the world the Lamb slain as a sacrifice for those He predestined to be saved. God planned for the brutal death of His Son knowing that Adam would fall. It becomes a lot easier to explain why sin entered this world when we grasp the implications of the fact that God is sovereign over all, and that we--the entire human race exist to promote the glory of God.

I am not saying this is easy to understand, but God's ways are so far above man's ways. Speculating beyond what the Bible teaches is very difficult.

Stan

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