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Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello every one, Ive been reading here for weeks and thought I would join in. I have never been an Adventist but fellowshiped with them for about a year and a half. The Lord showed me about the errors and falsehoods in this church and I am open to share my experiances.
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 621
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WELCOME to our discussions, Brix! We look forward to hearing about your experiences in Adventism.

Dennis Fischer

Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dennis, My neighbors are SDA, their love of the Lord and the love they showed me is wonderfull. I was knowledgable of the SDA teachings (Dr.Martins Kingdom of the Cults)but seeing how they are indoctronated over time began to grief my spirit.I saw the error of the Law and the Sabbath and a bunch of other teachings right away. With much prayer and study the Holy Spirit led me into the Word and showed me the root of error,which is a spirit, 1 John 4.My research into the beginnings of the Advent movement made this clear. It is a total miss understanding of Gods covanent to Abraham fullfilled in Jesus.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2376
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brix,
Welcome to FAF and to our discussions. Join in them as you feel you can. Ask what ever questions and make what ever comments you want to about the subjects.
God is so awesome.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3538
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wecome, Brix. We're glad you're here, and we look forward to "talking" with you!

Colleen
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Flyinglady, Thank you. The Lord Jesus is with us. I feel that my experiance with SDA is small compared to those Ive been reading about,and I understand some of the hurt and joy of being in and out of a cultish church, Ive been there, but not to such a degree. Thats whey I didnt get to deep into SDA, to protect myself from the "other spirit" that is there. The small group I hungout with were truly saved Christians,and they accepted me even I told them Ellan White isnt a prophet.We had many a debate on points of scripture... I would like make a comment about the neolinguistic programing I read about. Im going to call it what it is...witchcraft i.e. control , Doug Batchler's vidios I watched had it in them,very sutle.This was the other spirit that slipped into the church I went to , its also known as a Jezabell spirit-control through the emotionsof fear,guilt. Paul discribes it Gal 5v20.The Galatians were corrected by Paul because of some false teachers of the law turned them to another gosple. See the connection, the SDA are preaching the true gosple of Jesus and another gosple of the Sabbath which is the the law.Its not just what they teach, ita also how they teach it,by cunningly appealing to your emotions. witchcraft. The name of Jesus in prayer can brake its power on the people under its influance.
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HI Colleen I was typing when you came on.Im not very fast.Anyway , Im glad to be here and have many worm welcomes.
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Brix. I look forward to more of your insights in the future. I've been out of the SDA church for about 5 months now and happy as a lark to be so "out of it."

Can you please tell us how you know Doug Bachelor's videos contain NLP? What exactly did you see in them? I'd love to be able to point this out to my SDA husband, who loves to watch Doug Bachelor videos online.
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 6
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Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug goes to graet datail by painting all those vivid pictures with words about many subjects,using logic and reasoning and not much scripture , sometime directed at your emotions, and not much scripture, to make his points. He uses words-linguistic- to paint pictures in our minds.
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Been praying about which examples to use. Dougs teaching of the Sabbath. He starts off with the law then focuses on the Sabbath all the while painting word pictures in detail of the wonders of the Sabbath, the blessing of the Sabbath and all the worm and fuzzy good fealings you get by observing the Sabbath, all the while hes preaching another gospel. The scapegoat teaching he does the same thing and its 99% unscriptual. When Doug does his answer man thing,he takes 5 minutes to answer a simple question,why ? He has to tell a story while painting pictures to lead you to his conclutions, with little scripture.
Know look at Ellen Whites "testamonies" and you see the same pattern of painting pictures with words, much unscriptural. Same pattern, same spirit.
Dd
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Post Number: 643
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Brix - welcome to FAF!

Your story about your SDA neighbor makes me think of a woman in my Bible study who was recently enticed to attend a Revelation Seminar with her SDA neighbor. She went thinking the Seminar was a study of the book of Revelation but stayed for a few nights until the talk of Sabbath when she realized she was being called a "heathen" for being a Sunday worshiper.

She told me today that she should have known she was being asked to attend "propaganda" since her neighbor was aware of her devotion and love for Jesus and also knew my friend was very satisfied/spiritually fulfilled at her own church.

"If the SDA church is REALLY a Jesus-only church, why would my neighbor feel I need to know anything different than what I already know?"

I thought that was such excellent insight.

Give me Jesus,
Denise
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Denice, My understanding of the Jesus-only teaching is a belief that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How they came up with this view is beyond me, I never felt the need to study it out. The SDA clearly teaches the Trinity- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Propaganda is an accret word to discribe their evengalism methods to reach the unbelievers and those in other churches.My experiance was my neighbors showing me vidios on subjects we debated first, then they would get a vidio and other times a book. I never felt like I treated like a second class christian over the Sabbath issue, they accepted me. I met the local paster and worked with a woman from that church. They even ivited me to the Reviv 05 Telecast where I watched Doug Batchlor. I remembor him talking about baptism and he as useual talked for ten minutes of all the great reasons its needed. Except for, Jesus did it and taken a full dunk, he didnt say anything scriptual. The text of Romans chapter 6 is, we are dead, buried, and raised to life and freed from the law seemed unimportant to the subject I guess.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1424
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Brix to FAF.
You are right about the Jesus only teaching. That is what oneness Pentecostals teach. This should not be confused with SDA being a Jesus only church as you say.

Honestwitness, When you talk about NLP above. It should be noted that former WCG folks on the ESN website also talk about WCG using NLP. So both SDAs and WCG have been alleged to use this method.

Stan
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see that LEAD Consultants is now operating as Lead Plus. http://www.leadplus.com/

Dr. John Savage is mentioned on http://www.leadplus.com/products.htm

If you take out all the Ellen White quotes, the rest of this article tells some about how the process works. http://remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Spiritism&Occult/You're-Growing-Sleepy.pdf


quote:

"Back to the book "Frogs into Princes." Once again, its authors, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, are co-founders of NLP. Speaking of a technique called "anchoring" (you'll have to get this material!) page 85 of "Frogs into Princes" says: ". . .

It constitutes, in my opinion, one of the most covert tools that you can use as a therapist or as a communicator." You know what covert means: concealed, done secretly, etc. Remember this is the technique that our ex-pastor tried to use on one of our members at prayer meeting!

A few moments ago I said that I thought these people would use hypnosis even while training without prior knowledge of the students, remember? Here's why I think that as we read a quote from the above book on page 91:

"Once I was lecturing to two hundred and fifty fairly austere psychologists, being academic, talking about representational systems and books, and drawing equations. In the middle of my academic lecture I just walked up to the edge of the stage, looked up for a moment, and said 'That's weird' and then continued. A little later I looked up again: 'Well, that's really weird.' I did that a couple more times during my talk, and most of the people in the first four or five rows became fixated, staring at this spot on the ceiling. Then I moved over to the side, and talked right through to them. I could get arm levitation and other unconscious responses." (Emphasis supplied).

Remember, seemingly casual onversations? These people had no idea what was happening to them."





See also:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rxv/demcha/reframe.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0911226192/103-7300433-6963044?v=glance&n=283155

quote:

(Frogs into Princes)
Customers who bought this also bought

* The Structure of Magic: A Book About Language and Therapy (Structure of Magic) by Richard Bandler
* Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D (Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D) by Richard Bandler
* The Structure of Magic: A Book About Communication and Change (Book 2) by John Grinder
* Reframing: Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Transformation of Meaning by Richard Bandler
* The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists by Neil Strauss

Reviewer: Joseph Riggio (Ridgewood, NJ USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
For what it is this book is a 10, and it's a hoot to read as well! Even though it's now over 20 years old this is the first (and best-IMHO) book introducing the still cutting edge technology of human communication and cognition - Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLPô). As far fetched a claim as it may seem, this is surely a seminal book in the field of human communication, linguistics, perception, cognition and psychology. The impact of NLPô is present in all of these fields, often with more than a little kicking and yelling. After reading the book you're sure to understand why - Bandler and Grinder hold very little about traditional approaches and academic thinking as sacred. Although it's actually about a shift in the paradigm of how change can and does occur, it sometimes reads more like an exploration into the world of Svengali like magic and illusion. The material is presented in the form of a transcript of a live training superbly edited by Steve Andreas. The book is an example of 'doing' NLPô as opposed to 'describing' it. It puts you in the training as Richard and John present it. As the editor of the book states in the forward, keep your mind open as you read because the authors are more often then not doing what they're describing. You'll want to read it with your eyes open - sometimes more easily said then done, since what the authors are doing is often presented in hypnotically engaging language. I've talked to more than one person who kept finding themselves waking up a few hours after having read through a few pages in this book. It is best to read this book as you would a novel, continuing through to the end, rather than trying to figure out or understand an individual section before moving on. The material is written is such a way as to resolve itself as you read. This is an example of "nested loops" a teaching technique Bandler and Grinder use extensively. However you get through it, in the end you'll find your thinking about thinking changed, and the journey as well worthwhile as the destination. As they say themselves, this book has nothing to do with theory or even the truth about things - instead it's "all about what works." --This text refers to the Paperback edition.




Quote from review -- "I've talked to more than one person who kept finding themselves waking up a few hours after having read through a few pages in this book."

Really ...?

Gilbert Jorgensen
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Riverfonz for your comment.
Riverfontz, Ive done much reasurch on the theology,psycology, and methodology of cults and the New Age,and I want answer your first question, How I know Doug uses NLP in vidios. I dont know if he does, and I never heard of NLP util I read it here. NLP, hypnosis,mind control are modern terms that discribe actions and behaviers that are identified in the scripture as witchcraft.The term passive couwersive(sp?)indocturonation could discribe the effects of these technics. The examples I wrote of discribe what I saw and disserned as a form of witchcraft and when I read the posts talking about NLP, I was happy to see this exposed. I am aware of how occultic new age and science has come to gether in Psycology at the graduate level, but Ive never resurched it in depth.

Jorgfe,Thank you for your post, I want to study your links befor I respond

Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jorgfe, I read the wikipedia, great info on this site that summerises NLP and discribes it as dubious and distructive psudoscience. Ill pray about getting the book but I am interested in understanding the details. I tried the remnantprophecy link but couldnt get past the home page stuff and to the library. Is the leadsplus strictly for buisines. Are there other examples of Ellen Whites writings or SDA printings that indicate NLP that you know of? When I read thhe posts on NLP last week, the word linguistics junped out at me and a light went on and I knew there had to be a connection to what I disserned. I tried to return to that thread and reread it but I cant find it, could you give me the date or some thing.Im not very experianced with computers yet but Im learning.
Thanks again Jorgfe........BRIX
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3554
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't know that we can acurately pinpoint places where Adventists (or anyone else) use NLP in their writings. The fact is they have used deception for over 150 years. When one has a religion founded on deception and claims of divine authority for heresy, one has to see that what one has is something not from God. Since there is no neutral "place" in the universe, deception has to come from satan.

The factor that jumps out at me from the minimal reading I've done about NLP is it concentration on subliminal manipulationóusually for one's own benefit. I believe this kind of manipulation is as old as sin, and while NLP may codify certain techniques, there is still "no new thing under the sun."

The little I have watched Doug Batchelor, I can see quite a lot of things about his presentations that are deceptive and confusing. Whether or not he is consciously using NLP or not, I don't knowóbut he is using deceptive techniques. These techniques are embedded in Adventist "think". They have completely rationalized their use.

Colleen
Brix
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Username: Brix

Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Colleen, You are so right. The bigest area is their end time escatology, I see it as an irrational interpratation of a very subjective subject. Case in point, the mark of the beast teaching i.e. how the world has left it mark on you, spiritualised into their "rational" interpritation. Another is the state of the dead teaching- I call it the Lights Out Til The Ressurection teaching, 1Thess 4v 14 is clear on this subject," God will bring with Jesus those who have fall asleep in him" This verse pointed out to them, will confuse them, because of the way they are tought......BRIX

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