| Author | Message | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2006 |
I ran across this article/link, below, last night. The applications to Adventism are self-evident to many of us, I think. I believe that doctrine is the very first 'fruit' to look for, not an indiviual's nor organization's good works, nor how many people they get into their group. Numbers mean nothing. Also, it is not only within the senses something can be perceived to be good, feel good, but intellectually, as well. Adventism is a genius at this, appealing to the intellect and rationalism of mankind. Satan comes as an "Angel of Light", more often than not, preaching another Gospel, another Jesus and another Spirit in a legion of ways. Sometimes, so subtly, that without scripture, with the Holy Spirit of Christ within us, we would never catch it. If people are taught another Jesus and another Spirit, plus extra-Bibical revelation, it is very hard for them to understand the differences. http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/deception.htm 'How often do we hear the refrain - if it looks so "good" ("brings forth such "good fruit"), how can it be deception? Are we expecting deception to be obvious?...' "Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any creature of the field which God had made" (Gen 3:1) (Amplified version). "But also (in those days) there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among your-selves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines.." ( 2 Pe 2:1). "For certain men have crept in stealthily - gaining entrance secretly by a side door" (Jude 4). | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2383 Registered: 3-2004  |
Oh how subtle Satan is. Thank God that He can show us where Satan is. Because of our experience in Adventism it is much easier to detect what is not the truth. Thank you God, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1423 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree Diana, Satan is very subtle. Cathy2, You have hit on what I believe to be one of the most important topics that former SDAs like myself need to be concerned about. And that is the problem of replacing Adventism with another false gospel or system. Most of us have been fooled once. I like that "Who" song "We won't get fooled again". I really liked that link you posted. There is one statement that really stood out for me as being key to the subtlety of deception and I will quote some of it, "Have we not realized that FALSE GOSPELS are not completely new gospels, rather they are TRUE GOSPELS with a few minor changes. The Galatian believers believed the basic truths of Christianity...." That is so profound. Yes Adventism believes the basic truths of Christianity, but what do they do? They add the Galatian heresy of trying to keep the law to stay saved. And so does RCC do the same. Adventism twists the gospel just a little bit to say that Jesus had to stand up in 1844, and go into the Holiest of all to complete the work of atonement and start an Investigative Judgment. They directly contradict Hebrews 9:12. On another thread we saw how the Worldwide Church of God (even in its "reformed" state) holds on to Herbert Armstrong's false doctrine that most people will be saved after they die--despite the clear statement of Heb 9:27 "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment." They twist the gospel, and make it a doctrine Satan would like us to believe--Why worry about preaching the gospel, if folks are going to get a second chance (or even a first chance) after they die (and of course they will find themselves in hell). So it doesn't matter that they can produce beautiful videos that make people cry to get people to join their church--it is still a false gospel. John MacArthur has written a lot of books about the fad driven, or consumer driven church. His latest book is called "Fools Gold--all that glitters is not gold." His best book on this topic that I have just started reading is called "Ashamed of the Gospel--when the church becomes like the world". Here is an excerpt from the book called "what's wrong with user-friendly"? www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/mac12.htm The groups like Mormonism and Jehovahs Witnesses don't seem to be as problematic since their deception is quite obvious. But with SDA, RCC, WCG,Word of Faith (Benny Hinn etc), and even possibly the very orthodox on the surface appearing groups--but they de-emphasize solid Bible teaching, make people feel good about themselves, and then may represent a subtle deception. That sermon that was replayed a few weeks ago of one of J. Vernon McGhee's Sunday sermons from 30 years ago rings even truer today, that there will be widespread apostasy before Christ comes with even more subtle delusions that Jesus warned that if possible would deceive the very elect. But thanks be to God, that if we are truly saved, then He will preserve us thru these deceptions. But we need to be always on guard. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3549 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cathy, what a powerful article at that link you posted! I think it's fair to say that all of us have been deceived in the past; I believe that our previous experience with deception really does make us particularly vulnerable to being deceived again. It's not that we're "weaker" than othersóit's rather like having once been addicted to something, for example, we're vulnerable to becoming addicted later to another substance or distraction. I believe that we need to acknowledge our vulnerability to deception and ask God to protect us from it and also to keep us grounded in truth and reality. We also must be obedient to the Holy Spirit's nudging to ground ourselves in the word of God and to subject our lives to what it tells us. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; God doesn't want us bound yet again to another yoke of slavery. Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes, I agree, Stan, humans take the real Gospel and try to improve it--tweak it a little-- with the help and/or the spirit of Satan's cunnning. A whole 'nother 'garment' comes out of the works (pun unintended, but fits  ) Not Christ's robe of righteousness completely covering us; not a thing we did. I didn't post the article, primarily, for other heresies, but it fits any out there and they are legion, nowadays.(pun intended) As it says in, either, Zechariah or Zachariah, the "fat, sleek sheep" are harming, neglecting the starved, thin sheep. God isn't too pleased, if you read the verses (both books address these corrupt leaders). The sheep are starved for and ignorant of the Word, scripture, "sound doctrine". Instead, they get their "ears tickled" (the senses) in "the marketplace" (What's the *newest* thing, book, leader, something to do? As the Greeks were inclined). Where is scripture? Where is the cross? Where is grace? Where is Christ? Where is the simple Gospel, which is the POWER OF GOD? When I came to the point, where I could see those things missing, I left, even some established denominations, let alone new movements. I was a starved sheep. Growing up, I was completely ignorant on Galatins. later, I realized that, as a whole, SDA's were almost utterly silent with the book. Galations opened my eyes to how Adventism works, and to what Christ did for me on the cross. I recall feeling so deeply sad and hit that SDA's had missed that treasure house of knowledge. That was when I tried to tell my family the 'Good News', but to no avail. I was amazzed and stunned that, here I had finally 'got it', what they had *talked* ("Jesus died for your sins", etc.) about all my life, but, now, they treated it as nothing or, worse, a heresy. And I was only using the Bible, not Ellen's plagarizing, etc.. Those were the days, when I went through my deepest greiving, I think, feeling the vast RIFT between us because of the cross of Christ. But, knowing truth, I couldn't let go of it for anyone. Like myself, an ex-SDA friend of mine left Adventism and went into all kinds of things, but worse (Very deeply into Scientology, channelling spirits, Indian shamanism). And this person still has not found the Gospel of grace, last I knew, even though they refuted the groups above, and became a Christan. They seem to have a need for a strong 'theological' leader and miss the works in it. So they go from one thing to another, sometimes, more 'Chrisitan' cults, seeking that 'just right' thing and never finding it. I have seen this with other Formers, and their suffering and confusion. Unfortunately, back then, I was not in enough understanding of truth and grace, myself, to be of much help. I had empathy with their confusion, but nothing to help guide them to the cross, alone. Colleen, you used a perfect word--vulnerable. Yes, many are very vulnerable to every wind of 'doctrine' (or none at all, which is being taught in some circles) that comes along, after they leave. Some of us have bitterness, resentments and much pain, so that can influence our choices, too. Finding a group,. where you are 'love-bombed' can be irresistable, and Truth gets lost in the shuffle. SDA's do this, as well, to new recruits. "Love them into the church", I have heard over & over; and I have seen and felt the love-bombing towards myself, but no solid (of true and real comfort) Truth.(God delivers from those toxic emotions; resentment (French-'to feel again') and bitterness) I am not saying this, about those emotions, in the same way Adventists do and accuse about ex-SDA's. No, some of us just suffered some viscious treatment at the hands and mouths of SDA individuals and churches, when we left. We are all human. We left *for Christ's truth*; we feel human pain and emotions as an after effect (God heals). Prayer for all of these situations is the most powerful thing we can do. We can plant seeds, even water them, but God makes them grow. Also,sometimes, I have seen that people gripped in a heretical group or cult have to have God bring them to one or a combination of these kinds of utter 'bottoms' before they can 'see' and let go of themselves and their own works; personal, emotional, mental/intellectual, financial, their chidlren, marriage, church-standing and so on. Christ, at times, has a ruthless grace-- to the death, literally--to do whatever it takes, to find us, bring us to him; lost, starved, dead sheep. Sometimess, he will strip us of everything to bring us to himself. (it has certainly happened to me. I do not regret that he found me this way) I think I see this happening with one SDA family member, who could not see Christ in any other way. And only God could do this, not myself or anything I ever said. The barriers are too strong; only God can make them come crashing down. Christ's powerful light blazes beyond any blind darkness! Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2006 |
I reread the article and in one paragraph, it really struck me how when new converts come to Adventism or even those of us born into it (as we learn more and more of the theology), there is a common pattern like in The Garden and the lies. The eventual creeping sense of shame, which never quite leaves. "Are we good enough for God? doing enough?" We go on to try and do more, covering up for what has already been corrupted, as Adam and Eve did with the fig leaves. (God stripped those off of them, too, replacing them with furs by shed blood) Nowadays, I recall that it is Satan, who is called 'The Accuser', not Jesus Christ. Christ is The Lover and Seeker of our souls. Evil wants us to feel ashamed *without Christ*, never being enough for God, spinning our wheels. In Christ we are enough; more than enough, we are conquerors through Christ, in Whom we can do all things. Here is part of the paragraph: '...But, [in the Garden] "they eat [consume the false message], they expect marvelous results [wiser, holier, closer to God], they wait [live the new theology] and there grows on them a sense of shame" [Barnes commentary]. When we are first deceived, we may still seem to be holy - perhaps we may even think we are more holy - but in time a sense of shame will grow on us. We have partaken of that which God has forbidden in His Word: we have fallen for that which we think looks "good." [our own works and self-righteousness; feeling good about that or just feeling good for ourselves]' Whether it is of our own works or feeling good or both, it is still all about me, me, me; and at the end of the day, that shame will return, eventually, whether one admits it or not. That desolate emptiness. There is no answer or remedy, but Christ alone. Cathy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1425 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good points Cathy. I mentioned this once on another thread, but will bring it up again. In Numbers 15:32-36 is the account of the man who was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Seems innocent enough. But God ordered that the people stone this man to death outside the camp. This story used to really bother me until I heard someone applying the spiritual meaning. The Sabbath was a type of the gospel of grace. Israel was commanded not to do any work of any kind on the Sabbath. This was a picture pointing to the fact that we can't add any works of any kind to our salvation. If God took the type pointing to our salvation by grace alone--The Sabbath--so seriously that this man was stoned to death, how do we think God regards those who would try to bring a works based salvation to the Christian church? We find the answer in Gal. 1:8,9 "...let them be accursed". As the article posted by Cathy points out 'false gospels mostly are true gospels with some minor changes.' The man picking up sticks on the Sabbath wanted to contribute some work of his own. Didn't that seem like a minor offense? Any gospel which subtracts in any way from the fact that we are saved entirely by grace alone through faith alone, or any gospel which adds some type of work insults the spirit of grace. Then Christ died for nothing. It is serious to be making even minor changes (picking up sticks etc.) in a gospel of salvation that is based on a miracle of grace. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2386 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have to disagree, to a certain degree with what Colleen said that..."I believe that our previous experience with deception really does make us particularly vulnerable to being deceived again. It's not that we're "weaker" than othersóit's rather like having once been addicted to something, for example, we're vulnerable to becoming addicted later to another substance or distraction." The way I see it is that if we leave the Adventist church for the right reason, we found Jesus and want to follow him, then when we come against false teachings, we can recognize them better. In the meantime we are strengthening our relationship with Jesus by reading and studying the Bible. The ones who are vulnerable and get deceived are those who leave adventism for what ever the reason, do not want anything to do with Christianity, do not have a relationship with Jesus. They are disappointed in religion/Adventism/Christianity, as they think adventism and Christianity are the same. They do not seek to know what happened and why. All they know is that religion/Adventism/Christianity apear to be the same and they want to part of it, because of what they learned in Adventism. Or, on the surface, it appears they are seeking God, but in their hearts they are not. These are the ones that are more vulnerable and more easily deceived. On here I see many of you who can spot deception right away, you spot legalism right away. And we do it because of our experience with Adventism. Most importantly, we are building a relationship with Jesus, studying the Bible and praying that we not be deceived again. Just my opinion. Diana | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2005 |
Greetings Folk! WELL....this evening i found myself in my old church{SDA} It was kind of a deal i made with someone i know from there that i saw on the bus as i was going to a non SDA church for their Bible Study night...the equivalent of prayer meeting. I invited him to come with me but he was already going to SDA so i said i would go with him if he would come with me to this other Church{which i am endeavouring to attend regularly now} So we went and i experienced BEAUTIFUL worship there and not long after the worship when the Word was being read he decided that he was leaving in 10 minutes and then suddenly he left in 1 minute...while The Word was still being read which i found to be a bit rude....however he said that i did not have to go with him{to SDA as he did not want to spoil my enjoyment} After a little thought i decided that i would keep my side of the bargain and i reluctantly left to go to my old haunt. Another reason that i thought i might take a look was because they are having one of the infamous Campaigns where they invite an SDA preacher from The States or some Carribean Island. When i arrived i stayed outside at the door listening for a while and heard him say that Prophecy is for the unchurched!!!{i thought ...here we go} Eventually i went in and joined my friend for the rest of the Sermon. He was preaching about.....you guessed it DANIEL/REVELATION. These remarks in his sermon troubled me...and i quote:{they were not stated concurrently as i am writing them, but some of them were stated very closely to similar ones} "I am a Christian because of Bible prophecy" I am a Christian because of DANIEL 2" "Not JUST a Christian...i am a REMNANT CHURCH CHRISTIAN" He said this last statement after saying that people are saying "I'm JUST a Christian" His point being that THAT is not sufficient! Then he goes on to say "I am SDA because of Bible Prophecy" and finally {and by the way i wrote these quotes down as he said them} "God gives prophecy to save you" WELL...that was the start of the evening and then after the service of course people have not seen me there so i had a few people come and greet me or make it known that they have seen me there and that its good to see me. Its so strange how i could tell that the main reason people came up to me after was because these people KNOW that i have left SDA. One of them however said that they thought i was attending a certain OTHER branch EVEN THOUGH i told the person on New Years Eve that i had left SDA. This particular person wants to know why i left and is inviting me for lunch on Saturday.....i dont know if The Lord is going to use me in this way with this person and if i SHOULD in fact go and share the truth of the Gospel. While i was talking to this person the lay Pastor came up and said that he had not seen me and i said thats because i am not around and the person that invited me for lunch interjected and said to the Pastor"Are you not going to ask WHY??" As a result i got into conversation with him and i mentioned the IJ and that i did not see that we should be holding onto ANY part of the Old Covenant and that i believe that the application of the Sabbath is changed. I mentioned Hebrews 3 and 4. I also mentioned the text they use to prove Sabbath keeping Matthew 5:17 and how i think SDA's focus on the first part of the text and not the last part. He then started to say that i need to speak to someone that has studied Theology{the same thing i was told by a colleague of his not so long ago} He said that the word FULFIL in the Greek or Hebrew means something DIFFERENT that it means to EXPOUND,SHOW {or something of that nature} He then went on to say that the biggest deception in the Body Of Christ is Sunday KEEPING and the immortality of the soul. I metioned about there being 613 commandments...could someone please clarify this because he said that he has been in Bible College for FIVE years and has never come across that and asked me if there are not TEN commandments. He said that he knows there are lots of ceremonial.....{he actually did not come up with a word to describe what he meant} I said that i dont see any division of the ceremonial and moral law in the Bible and that according to Deuteronomy the law was given to the children of Israel that were there ALIVE THAT DAY. Of course he wants to discuss all this with me and i am thinking that it is probably time now for me to state the case of the Gospel to the powers that be in the church that i left. Of course if i speak to him then the main Pastor will know in fact he saw me tonight also and said " i have not seen you for a while" and i genuinely believe that he does not know that i have left. The thing that struck me was that at one moment i was being spoken to by one person that know's i left and then another came up to say hello at the same time that ALSO knows i left and then ANOTHER who i had a lengthy conversation with 4 or 5 weeks ago came and made their presence known also and then the lay Pastor came into the equation. Also the one that invited me on Saturday to explain why i left and have lunch was taking a lift with my friend and i can imagine the conversation and maybe the mention of the invite and also that person was wanting to be in conversation with the lay Pastor in the near future PLUS the person i spoke with 5 weeks ago works alongside the lay Pastor and knows me well and knows my reasonings behind leaving. I see a potentially dangerous situation where all of a sudden i become the focus of conversation just because of the connections between people. I can just imagine each one arming themselves with what i tell them and using it to further defend their SDA faith to other questioning believers. On the other hand this could be a FANTASTIC witness...but my Spirit and Scripture usage must be A1 because i know how they try to tangle you up. Any pointers please on how to tackle it methodically...also advice on whether or not i should do the lunch on Sat? Should i contact the lay preacher and continue to discuss as he said he would like to do. The fact is that i can see that he thinks i am just a bit mixed up and do not understand the Scripture properly...especially after telling me that FULFIL does not mean fulfil but rather something else. I thought Fulfil meant: to deliver,to do, to make closure,to finish,reach its climax e.t.c. and i have NOT looked up the word in the dictionary so please correct me if i am misunderstood. WHAT SHOULD I DO? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3553 Registered: 12-2003 |
Anotherseeker, first, I think you should pray and ask God to clarify to you His will for you in this situation. Second, confusion is not from God. If you feel trapped or manipulated or fearful, think twice about going. I believe God can clearly give you a sense of peace about this, one way or another. Not everyone who wishes to have a "conversation" needs to have oneóbut sometimes God uses events like these to plant seeds. Pray for wisdom. Diana, I do agree with you in general; having been deceived, we are more aware of deviant teaching if we have Jesus. If not, then we're really vulnerable! I see, however, that in myself there is a danger in feeling like I'm now equipped to spot deception. On one level I am because the Holy Spirit is in me, and I pray to be taught by Him. On the other hand, I can easily become intellectually attached to certain ideas and not see that I have a blind spot. I find that I must continually submit my perceptions to Him and ask God to teach me with His Spirit. I do pray that God will protect me from deception, both from outside ideas and from internal self-deception. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen, you observe perfectly the fact that we are in danger of being deceived because of our implication in adventism. Yes, we can be deceived, and I want to point about WCG video "Called to be Free". God is sovereing and in His actions He is absolutely free, and don't depends on humans to accomplish His purposes. He used this video, produced by a church who is still a cult to open my eyes about Sabbath and legalism, and set me free. My logic was this: no christian can disregard the law, even it is the New Covenant law. Believing that a command is not optional, but it is mandatory, is not in itself legalism. We all are under a law. How could OC law is a yoke of bondage, and New Covenant law is not? I think that this is the underlying question which all adventist have, but they are not aware of it. How can a law cannot be a yoke of bondage, after all, Christ set a higher standard than OT law? If OT law was a yoke of bondage, the new and higher standard, must be also a yoke of bondage. The adventist classic response is that the OC law was a yoke of bondage because of it's many laws, especially ceremonial laws. With fewer laws, like ten commandments, the law is not a yoke of bondage. So, the idea is that, if we say that the ten commandments are a yoke of bondage, the Sermon of the Mount, which set a higher standard than the ten commandments, is much more a yoke of bondage. In this way, because I cannot understand why the Decalogue is in itself a yoke of bondage, I cannot saw why the Sabbath enslave me. But the picture changed dramatically listening and watching the WCG video, "Called to be Free" Watching the streaming version on the internet, between the 31-33 minutes are some explanations given by Greg Albrecht and other persons about their identity. Someone spoke about a list of what to do, and not to do, a list with which he compared and evaluated himself. But at one moment he realized that what was bad was not those points in which he was found guilty of not performing what was supposed to do, after the standard set by the list, but WITH THE LIST ITSELF. Next, Greg Albrecht, continuing on the same subject, said the words which God used to open my eyes. I'll try to reproduce them
Suddenly I saw the difference. In OC we can PROVE our relationship with God by what we do. The list permits us to measure our standing, but in NC our standing is by faith alone. We believe in Jesus, and our relationship with Him cannot be measured. Of course, we have the fruits of the Spirit, but our works still cannot be measured with the LAW of love. This LAW, like Jesus who is God Almighty is infinite, is not finite, it cannot be measured, it cannot be defined, we cannot evaluate ourselves and say " We are blameless in the face of God, we stood well, we have keep the law of God perfectly" The Sabbath was our identity, was a tool with which we measured our standing before God, of what we are. The Christianity is defined by an ongoing relationship with a living Person, not with a dea Law, with a standard of behaviour. Our relationship with Christ cannot be measured by our behaviour. We always make mistakes, and always come short of what God wanted all of us to be. If we evaluate ourselves by our bahaviour, we will always be found guilty. Our identity must be Christ alone, faith alone. Now I return to the subject. Because I have been transformed by the grace of God who used the words of these people from the WCG, I must have concluded: "The WCG is surely a New Covenant church, is no more a cult" Initially, this was my conclusion. I was eager to know more about the WCG transformation, and searching on the internet about this video I arrived at the site of former WCG members. I thinked that they were the legalists who tried to stick with Herbert Armstong's views, but they presented facts about this video (even if some comments I found not to be accurate)and I recognize that what was NOT SPOKEN in this video is a big problem. I read Tkach book which can be read online "Transformed by Christ: a Brief History of the WCG" , and recognized that he tried to save Herbert Armstrong as adventists tries to save Ellen White. And I recognize that the former members has a right to put these questions:
Of course, in this video Greg Albrech says plainly that Armstrong was a false prophet. But in his book which has been published in 1998 Tkach says that Armstrong was a "very sincere Christian who was dedicated to Christ." Like many adventists said about Ellen White. In this way I learned a lesson, the lesson that I was vulnerable to deception, and the lesson that God can use everything and everyone to accomplish His purposes. His is sovereing and our experience no matter how good or uplifting is cannot be used as a standard of what is truth or not. Only the Word of God which is truh is the only standard. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3562 Registered: 12-2003 |
By the way, Jackobóthat video was not produced by the WCG. It was produced by a church in Utah with an independent ministry to promote the Gospel. They have made other videos too, including one comparing the Bible with th Book of Mormonóa video which was aired on TV over the whole state of Utah on the Saturday of our FAF meeting in Redlands. As I understand it (Mark Martin talked with one of the film makers), they did not know the aberrant doctrines to which the WCG still clings when they decided to make the video. The video, at any rate, was never made to promote the WCG. It was intended to tell the story of people finding the gospel after being bound in profound heresy. (As our pastor Gary Inrig said, it would be a shame to miss this story of conversion just because the WCG is not "kosher". Some of the people on the video, apparently, do not attend the WCG now. They are worshiping in other Christian churches.) So Jackob, you were very discerning to find out what the WCG actually believes. Your perception of truth from the video, however, was not surprising; the group making the movie are true Christians who made the movie to honor the God who finds us in our darkness and shines His light on us. It was not intended as a promotional piece for the WCG. I believe these behind-the-scenes facts are the reason the movie is so powerful. Its intent was to honor God, not to promote the church. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 444 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thanks for explaining that Colleen, that makes a lot of sense. I did get a blessing from teh video, and wondered at the firestorm that seemed to erupt afterwards over it. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2005 |
If it's true that they have no intention to promote WCG, actually they ended doing it, because the story of knowing the grace of God is, as the video present it, the natural result of the work of the leaders of WCG who were responsable for the changes. They are presented as those who in reality were in a powerful and amazing way lead by the Holy Spirit, and this pictures the core of the WCG church "kosher". The conclusion is clear: a cult can become a christian church, because WCG experienced this reality. I'm constrained to evaluate the video in his entire effect. Walter Martin book "Kingdom of the Cults" even if presented a truth, the fact that a part of the adventist church is christian, the evangelical adventists, misled the christian community, because they believed that this part includes the leadership of the church, and this is the most important thing in classifying a church. This put the fomer adventist in a bad situation, because their voice is unheard, "The SDA church, even if it has aberrant views, about state of the dead for example, is a unorthodox church, not a cult" it's a conception with which the former adventists are facing. We are put in a bad light because, int their opinion, we had left the church after the SDA church renounced it's cultic and legalistic doctrines, even if it retained some aberrant beliefs. This transformation, from a cult to a christian church makes our "we feel constrained to leave the church" a mistake. I believe that this video creates or perpetuates for former WCG members the same problems with which formers adventists are facing. For example, those who had left the church after the New Covenant was promoted by the leaders are presented as a people who refused the grace of God. It is so with many who organized in splinter groups still promoting Armstrong's doctrines, but there are also those who, sensing that the church, at the core is still the same, left for good, as we left adventism when we came to the conclusion that evangelical adventism cannot make the SDA church a christian church. Until we reached this conclusion, perhaps many of us still reamined in SDA hoping to produce a change from interior. In this way the video left a bad impression about those who left the church, like, in the case of SDA church, the evaluation of Walter Martin. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1434 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, I think your comparison of the two situations with SDA and WCG are very perceptive and accurate. I think it is especially interesting in your case, because your testimony is that you were helped by the video "Called to be Free", and it helped bring you out of Sabbatarianism. And I am sure that video was responsible for bringing many people to know Christ. For that we can be grateful. I was not aware that the video was not produced by the WCG. Somewhere I read that Michael Feazell who is one of the main business managers for the WCG, as well as the media director, if he didn't actually produce the video was directly involved. God is sovereign. He is able to save people even while they are SDA or WCG. I know people who have come to Christ by reading "Desire of Ages", and even listening to Doug Batchelor. And I have no reason to believe that this is not the case with the video of the WCG. I watched Walter Martin over a period of years, and at the end of his life, it became apparent to him that he may have been wrong about SDA. But what bothers me in all this, is how quickly the evangelical community rallied around SDAs just because Martin and Barnhouse put their stamp of approval on it. A similar situation appears to be the case with WCG. Did they really give up Armstrong? If HWA was a false prophet, then why didn't they burn his books, rather than sell them for three million dollars to another HWA loving organization? The WCG is not growing, in fact it is losing members rapidly. We need to pray for both SDA and WCG to totally disavow their heretical past, and reject the false gospels they both promote. Stan | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 286 Registered: 6-2001  |
Anotherseeker, you were correct. In the Greek, that word means "to complete" or "to consummate" Visit www.blueletterbible.org. Your pastor probably got his definition from the "Clear" Word. Personally, I would not try to get defensive with them. They are skilled at arguing their way out of any corner. I would just tell them (assume they are only concerned about your eternal soul) not to worry, you are attending a great church and are growing even closer to God. If they insist on bringing up the Sabbath, quote Romans 14:5, where it says people can observe holy days or not, depending on what they feel God is telling them to do. Hope this helps! Sincerely, Hannah | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2395 Registered: 3-2004 |
Anotherseeker, pray and pray and pray some more before meeting with any SDA. Read and study the Bible. God will give you the words to say, because He has promised. Maybe as Hannah has said all you will need to say is that you are attending a great church and developing a closer relationship with Jesus and/or quote Romans 14:5. I will remember you in my prayers. Diana | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thankyou Hannah and Diana. Your input is VERY much appreciated as i thought that no one else would comment on my long amble thru the park...haha. I was not led to see the lady on Saturday and when i rang her on Friday {TWICE }she was NOT there so i know that it was meant to be that way. Hannah it is frightening HOW FAR they will go to support their doctrines..EVEN changing the meaning of an EASY to understand word in addition to downplaying your knowledge or understanding of the Scriptures! As he told me that i need to speak to a theologian...inside i was saying "Whatever happened to The Holy Spirit??" | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1442 Registered: 3-2005 |
Anotherseeker, I would stay away as far as possible from those people. I am glad you didn't go see that lady. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2400 Registered: 3-2004 |
Anotherseeker, Glad you could not get that lady. As Stan said above, stay as far away from them as you can. Then pray and study your Bible. God is truly awesome. Diana |
