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Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |     |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity
The following study is designed to show the strong biblical basis of the doctrine of the Trinity. I have interacted with a few who object to the word "Trinity" because the word is not specifically used in the Bible. This is not a valid argument against a doctrine as we use many technical terms that are not specifically in the Bible, but are a kind of short hand for topics that are most certainly taught in the Bible. In this case, the word "Trinity" is a short hand way of referring to all that God has revealed about His existence in the pages of scripture. This single useful words sums up the teaching in dozens of passages. If there is another technical term that better sums up these teachings and is more helpful I am certainly not opposed to it, but I am not aware of any term more helpful than Trinity at this time.
Tonight I would like to start with the very most basic foundational truth about the God we worship: There is only one God and there are no others. When I was growing up I was taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were kind of like a family. I was taught that although they are three sperate beings, they are united in purpose in the same way that a husband and wife often have the same goals and agree on many things. This is a wrong teaching that is bluntly contradicted by the Bible. If this teaching were true, then we would in effect have three God's. In other words, we would have three sperate beings that are each gods, but have common goals and purposes. This idea is clearly pagan and not Christian. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God and there are no others. There aren't many gods, there aren't three God's, there is just one God. There is only one single living being that is God. God is one in being, essence, or substance.
Another heresy is the idea that there is a hierarchy of divine beings. Under this view the Father is the highest god, the Son is some sort of demi-deity or lesser God, and the Spirit is divine in some sense, but lower down on the hierarchical totem pole. We will deal much more with this view later, but suffice it to say that this view also creates in effect three gods, albeit gods of varying authority and importance. Some will try to get around this by saying that only the Father is god while the Son and Spirit are merely divine, but this makes no linguistic sense at all. It's just another way of saying that there are greater and lesser gods. The Bible makes it quite clear that there is only one God, there are none beside Him. In short, there are no other gods or deities, not even lesser ones. With that introduction, let's dive into the scriptures.
The following are explicit statements that there is only one God. Also please note as you read who this God is (it will be important later). When you see "LORD" or "GOD" in all caps these words are representing the Hebrew tetragrammaton "YWHW" which is the personal name of the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
quote:
Deuteronomy 4:35 (NASB)
35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD [YHWH], He is God; there is no other besides Him.
Deuteronomy 4:39 (NASB)
39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD [YHWH], He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB)
39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
2 Samuel 22:32 (NASB)
32 "For who is God, besides the LORD [YHWH]? And who is a rock, besides our God?
Isaiah 37:20 (NASB)
20 "Now, O LORD [YHWH] our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, LORD [YHWH], are God."
Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)
10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD [YHWH], "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isaiah 44:6-8 (NASB)
6 "Thus says the LORD [YHWH], the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' "
Isaiah 45:5 (NASB)
5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isaiah 45:14 (NASB)
14 Thus says the LORD [YHWH], "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: 'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.' "
Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB)
21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD [YHWH]? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 46:9 (NASB)
9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
John 5:44 (NASB)
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
Romans 3:30 (NASB)
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Romans 16:27 (NASB)
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Galatians 3:20 (NASB)
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
Ephesians 4:6 (NASB)
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
1 Timothy 1:17 (NASB)
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
James 2:19 (NASB)
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jude 1:25 (NASB)
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
The following scriptures make it clear that there is no one like God in His essence.
quote:
Exodus 8:10 (NASB)
10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD [YHWH] our God.
Exodus 9:14 (NASB)
14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.
Exodus 15:11 (NASB)
11 "Who is like You among the gods, O LORD [YHWH]? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
2 Samuel 7:22 (NASB)
22 "For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD [YHWH]; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
1 Chronicles 17:20 (NASB)
20 "O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Psalms 86:8 (NASB)
8 There is no one like You among the gods, O Lord, Nor are there any works like Yours.
1 Kings 8:23 (NASB)
23 He said, "O LORD [YHWH], the God of Israel, there is no God like You in heaven above or on earth beneath, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart,
Isaiah 40:18 (NASB)
18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?
Isaiah 40:25 (NASB)
25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One.
Isaiah 44:7 (NASB)
7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
Isaiah 46:5 (NASB)
5 "To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike?
Isaiah 46:9 (NASB)
9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Jeremiah 10:6-7 (NASB)
6 There is none like You, O LORD [YHWH]; You are great, and great is Your name in might.
7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? Indeed it is Your due! For among all the wise men of the nations And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You.
Micah 7:18 (NASB)
18 Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.
Finally, the Bible tells us that there is only one true God, therefore all other so-called "gods" must be false gods and not gods at all.
quote:
2 Chronicles 15:3 (NASB)
3 "For many days Israel was without the true God and without a teaching priest and without law.
Jeremiah 10:10 (NASB)
10 But the LORD [YHWH] is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
John 17:3 (NASB)
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,
1 John 5:20 (NASB)
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Hopefully by now it should be clear that the Bible explicitly teaches that there is only one God, there are no others. There are no others like Him or beside Him. There cannot be three seperate living beings that are each gods, but are united in purpose. There cannot be a greater god with lesser deities or gods. There is only one single being that is God and there are no others.
This has been the first step in understanding the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. In the next few days we will discover more about who the Father, Son, and Spirit are.
Chris
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3548
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:28 pm: | |
Chris, great post. Thank you so much for this research. I'm looking forward to the next installment!
Colleen |
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 205
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:35 pm: | |
Chris -- thank you for your research. It is fascinating, and enlightening. 
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Grwaitemd
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Username: Grwaitemd
Post Number: 22
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:49 pm: | |
Dear Chris:
How do you explain: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Is not the Father calling his Son God?
Then the Bible says: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest".
How can the Son be called "God" and yet be the Son of the Highest. Does not the "Highest" refer to the Father of the Son? Does not this show evidence of a hierarchy? What about the Son's own words:
"My Father is greater than I". John 14:28
"The Son can do nothing of himself". John 5:19
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father". Mark 13:32
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Matthew 28:18
"For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself". John 5:26
"is not mine to give". Matthew 20:23
Do not these verses show a hierarchy of authority between the Father and the Son? |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 8:11 pm: | |
Grwaitemd,
No I do not think those versus show a hierarchy of gods. The versus you cite show that Jesus is eternally God the Son and that during the incarnation He lived as a man in dependence on and obedience to God the Father. He laid aside the perogatives and priviledges of deity, but not the attributes or nature. The Father and Son are personally distinct, but one in being, nature, or essence. I will have much more to say about this later.
But first things first Grw. I would like to be systematic in our approach to scripture. I believe you wanted the scriptural basis for the Trinity and I am giving it to you one step at a time. So let's start at the beginning. Do you agree or disagree that there is only one God and there are no others? Let's see if we can at least agree on that point based on the testimony of scripture. The amount of scriptural testimony that there is only one God [YHWH] and there are no others is overwhelming. To teach otherwise is to ignore mountains of scripture and fall into either the heresy of tri-theism or worse yet, some modified form of arianism.
The central and most important question in all this becomes, "Who is Jesus?" I will be presenting a scriptural answer to this question in the near future.
Chris |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 8:13 pm: | |
Gilbert,
You're welcome! I hope you find the texts helpful in your study.
May the Lord richly bless you in your journey and in your study,
Chris |
Brix
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Username: Brix
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 8:43 pm: | |
HI Chris, You have done a thorough studyand I anticipate John 1v1-3 in your next posting. |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 9:22 pm: | |
Thank you Brix and welcome to the forum! It's good to have you here.
Chris |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2385
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 9:41 pm: | |
Chris,
Thank you so much for this study. I will read it when you put it on here.
May God bless you as you do this for those of use not as knowledgeable as you.
Diana |
Brix
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Username: Brix
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:54 pm: | |
Thanks Chris, I could like your insite with Heb 1v1-5, focusing on v4-name he has inherited. I dont want to interrupt the flow of your teaching so Ill be patient and wait for you ....BRIX |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:33 pm: | |
Brix, the entire context of this passage in Hebrews is dedicated to demonstrating the Deity of Jesus Christ. Verse 4 is a strong part of the author's argument for Christ's full Deity. I think Clarke is pretty good on this verse:
quote:By inheritance obtained keklhronomhken onoma. The verb klhronomein signifies generally to participate, possess, obtain, or acquire; and is so used by the purest Greek writers: Kypke has produced several examples of it from Demosthenes. It is not by inheritance that Christ possesses a more excellent name than angels, but as God: he has it naturally and essentially; and, as God manifested in the flesh, he has it in consequence of his humiliation, sufferings, and meritorious death. See Philippians 2:9.
óAdam Clarke's Commentary
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Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:35 pm: | |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part II
In the last study we saw that the Bible overwhelming teaches that there is only one being that is God, that one God is YHWH, and there are no other gods. Tonight we are going to learn more about who YHWH is. The Bible teaches that the Father of Jesus Christ is God.
quote:
John 17:3 (NASB)
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB)
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
2 Corinthians 1:3 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
1 Peter 1:3 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Here it is important to understand that all of the titles that are given to the Father such as "the only true God", the "one God", and even "the God of" Jesus are not exclusive to the person of the Father. All of these titles apply in the ultimate sense to the one being who is God, YHWH. YHWH is "the only true God". YHWH is the "one God". Jesus came from YHWH, revealed YHWH, and is one with YHWH therefore YHWH can be said to be the God of Jesus. Jesus didn't come to reveal some new god, Jesus came to reveal the God of the Old Testament, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus revealed YHWH. It's also true that during the incarnation Jesus lived in dependence upon and obedience to the Father, but He didn't cease being one with Father. During the incarnation Jesus voluntarily laid aside the power and privileges of deity, but He never laid aside the nature or attributes of deity.
We have now begun to touch upon the most important question of all, "Who is Jesus Christ?"
We already know from the texts above that the Father is God (YHWH). We know from our first study that there are no other gods than YHWH. We also know that there are no others like YHWH. So if the Son has all the same attributes, powers, and abilities of YHWH, then He must be YHWH, co-equal with the Father and one with the Father. I am going to begin listing attributes of YHWH. I will then show with a matching verse that the Son has these very same attributes and is therefore YHWH Himself.
Who is all powerful?
quote:1 Chronicles 29:11 (NASB)
11 "Yours, O LORD [YHWH], is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD [YHWH], and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
Philippians 3:20-21 (NASB)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Who is present everywhere?
quote:Proverbs 15:3 (NASB)
3 The eyes of the LORD [YHWH] are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.
2 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.
Who is the great "I AM"?
quote:Exodus 3:14 (NASB)
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
John 8:58 (NASB)
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Who is the only creator?
quote:Isaiah 44:24 (NASB)
24 Thus says the LORD [YHWH], your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD [YHWH], am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,
John 1:3 (NASB)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Who is the only savior?
quote:Isaiah 43:11 (NASB)
11 "I, even I, am the LORD [YHWH], And there is no savior besides Me.
Isaiah 45:21 (NASB)
21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD [YHWH]? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
Acts 4:12 (NASB)
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Who will judge mankind?
quote:Isaiah 3:13-14 (NASB)
13 The LORD [YHWH] arises to contend, And stands to judge the people.
14 The LORD [YHWH] enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people, "It is you who have devoured the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (NASB)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Who will judge between the sheep and the goats?
quote:Ezekiel 34:17 (NASB)
17 "As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord GOD [YHWH], 'Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats.
Matthew 25:31-33 (NASB)
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Who sent the prophets?
quote:Jeremiah 7:25 (NASB)
25 "Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them.
Matthew 23:34 (NASB)
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Who is coming in glory?
quote:Isaiah 40:5 (NASB)
5 Then the glory of the LORD [YHWH] will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Matthew 24:30 (NASB)
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Who is our Father?
quote:Isaiah 63:16 (NASB)
16 For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us And Israel does not recognize us. You, O LORD [YHWH], are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
I have many more of these comparison texts that show that the Jesus is YHWH. The attributes and titles ascribed to YHWH are ascribed to the Son, the second person of YHWH. Since this is getting quite long already I will wrap this up for now. I will plan to continue next time with more texts showing that Jesus is YHWH, the only true God.
Chris
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Brix
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Username: Brix
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:50 pm: | |
Chris, Ive always believed in the Deity but this word inherited has bugged me as to the application to Jesus in this verse. I think I understand Clark. Let me paraphrase v 4 from NIV.
So he became as much superior to the angles as HIS name IS INHERINTLY superior to the angles. Jesus is God in the flesh, is God befor creation,
Philippians 2v6- did not concider equality with God something to be grasped (already attained)and v 8 obedient to death,v 9 exalted to the highest place. |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:35 pm: | |
You've got it Brix!
I'm glad you brought up Philippians 2:6. It is an especially interesting verse.
quote:Philippians 2:6 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[NASB text note on "grasped": I.e. utilized or asserted]
The Greek word translated "grasped" is a very interesting word. Here's an entry from my favorite Greek lexicon.
quote:harpagmos [See Stg: G725]
harpagmÛs; gen. harpagmo™, masc. noun from harp·zo <G726>, to seize upon with force. Occurs only in Phil. 2:6: "Who [Christ], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery [harpagmÛn] to be equal with God." His truly being in the form of God could not render His claim of equality with God as robbery. The Lord did not esteem being equal with God as identical with the coming forth or action of a robber (h·rpax <G727>). The trans. meaning of harpagmÛs, robbery, is necessary here. This is clear from the fact that the expression "to be equal with God" cannot be taken as the obj. of hegesatov(aor. of hegeomai <G2233>, to consider), not to be considered a robbery. If it were the obj. of the verb, then it must be essentially different from morphe Theo™ (form of God), which it can no more be than "and was made in the likeness of man" can be essentially different from "took upon him the form of a servant." The "form of a servant" includes "being made in the likeness of man." Similarly, the "form of God" includes the "being equal with God." Certainly the two expressions do not in both cases denote in an absolute sense the same thing; they differ: absolute divine existence is indicated by hup·rchon <G5225>, being, in the form of God. The part. hup·rchon means that Jesus continued to be in the form of God, which is what He was before He became man and had always been, for in essence He has always been God. His divine existence in relation to the world is indicated by the phrase, "He did not think being equal with God a robbery" (a.t.) as He was God among men. He was always God (John 1:1), and He became flesh (John 1:14), and thus on earth He was the God-Man. In schema <G4976>, outer appearance, He was man. In essence (morphe <G3444>) He was God. When He became man, He truly took the form (morphe <G3444>, essence) of a servant. He esteemed not His equality with God as something requiring an act of force against the world or a thing to be forced upon the world. In harpagmÛs we may see the action of robbing, while in harpage the result of the action.
Syn.: klope <G2829>, theft; klÈmma <G2809>, a thing stolen.
Ant.: euergesÌa <G2108>, beneficence; eudokÌa <G2107>, delight, good pleasure, kindness.
óComplete Word Study Dictionary, The
Here's an excellent commentary on the verse:
quote:Jesus is the preeminent example of humility. He has always been God. John 1:1 speaks of Jesus: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." As God, he did not selfishly grasp hold of or tightly hold to his position as equal with God. Instead, he was willing to leave his high position in heaven temporarily and to give himself over to serving our needs. Although he set aside the rights and privileges of being God, he remained God.
óHolman New Testament Commentary
Chris
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Grwaitemd
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Username: Grwaitemd
Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:15 pm: | |
Chris:
I agree with the first point. There is only one God and his name is YHWH.
I also agree with the second. The Father calls his Son "God" and his Son takes the titles of his Father. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13:8. Was he is the Son before he was born of Mary? |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:42 am: | |
Grw,
I do not believe we are saying the same thing. I am not saying that the Son takes the titles of the Father, rather I am saying that titles and attributes of YHWH equally apply to the Father and Son because both are fully God. Both the Father and the Son are fully YHWH in being. I am saying that the Son has all the attributes of YHWH and is in fact YHWH in being. The Son is fully YHWH the one and only true God. YHWH eternally exists as three co-equal, co-eternal persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father, Son, and Spirit are eternally one being, YHWH. Tonight I will continue with more texts that show that Jesus is YHWH, the one true God.
You also asked about the eternal Sonship of the second person of the Triune God (YHWH). This question gets to the economy of roles and relationships that has always existed within the one being that is God (YHWH). I will write more on this tonight after work.
Chris |
Brix
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Username: Brix
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:54 am: | |
Grwaitemd, Take a look at Isaiah 9v6, This child born to us is Jesus, and he will be called Everlasting Father. The amazing thing I notest looking up the word father in the Strongs Concordance is the out of the 8674 words in the Hebrew dicionary the word father is #1 in the number codes for each word. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3556
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:52 pm: | |
Brix, I have also pondered and marveled at that verse in Isaiah. Further, the Son is also called Wonderful Counseloróthe role of the Holy Spiritóand Mighty God.
The Baby is The Mighty God!
Great study, Chris...
Colleen |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 5:37 pm: | |
Grwaitemd,
Iím home from work now and thought I would comment further on your question asking if Jesus was the Son prior to the incarnation. I believe the answer is ìYes, the persons of the Trinity eternally existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spiritî. The persons of the Trinity are completely ontologically co-equal, that is they are one in being and equal in being. Each person of the Trinity is fully God and each person fully shares in all the attributes of God; however there are distinctions in how the persons of the Trinity relate to the world and to each other. Because noted theologian Wayne Grudem has such a gift for explaining the complex in understandable ways, I would like to quote extensively from his Systematic Theology. I will be using selected quotes extracted from pages 248 ñ 252.
quote: We cannot say, for example, that the Father is more powerful or wiser than the Son, or that the Father and Son are wiser than the Holy Spirit, or that the Father existed before the Son and the Holy Spirit existed, for to say anything like that would be to deny the full deity of all three members of the Trinity. But what then are the distinctions between the persons?
When Scripture discusses the way in which God relates to the world, both in creation and in redemption, the persons of the Trinity are said to have different functions or primary activities. Sometimes this has been called the ìeconomy of the Trinity,î using economy in an old sense meaning ìordering of activities.î (in this sense, people used to speak of the ìeconomy of a householdî or ìhome economics,î meaning not just the financial affairs of a household, but all of the ìordering of activitiesî with the household.) The ìeconomy of the Trinityî means the different ways the three persons act as they relate to the world and (as we shall see in the next section) to each other for all eternity.
Grudem then goes on to demonstrate, using much scripture, that there are different functions between the persons of the Trinity in the work of creation and in the work of redemption and that these differences in role are not temporary but will last forever. Grudem then goes on to demonstrate that the persons of the Trinity eternally existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
quote:But why do the persons of Trinity take these different roles in relating to creation? Was it accidental or arbitrary? Could God the Father have come instead of God the Son to die for our sins? Could the Holy Spirit have sent God the Father to die for our sins, and then sent God the Son to apply redemption to us?
No, it does not seem that these things could have happened, for the role of commanding, directing, and sending is appropriate to the position of the Father, after whom all human fatherhood is patterned (Eph. 3:14-15). And the role of obeying, going as the Father sends, and revealing God to us is appropriate to the role of the Son, who is also called the Word of God (cf. John 1:1-5, 14, 18; 17:4; Phil. 2:5-11). These roles could not have been reversed or the Father would have ceased to be the Father and the Son would have ceased to be the Son. And by analogy from that relationship, we many conclude that the role of the Holy Spirit is similarly one that was appropriate to the relationship he had with the Father and the Son before the world was created.
Therefore, the different function that we see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit performing are simply outworkings of an eternal relationship between the three persons, one that has always existed an will exist for eternity. God has always existed as three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is fully God and has all the attributes of God. The only distinctions between the members of the Trinity are in the ways they relate to each other and to creation. In those relationships they carry out roles that are appropriate to each person.
Hereís the important point, Grwaitemd: Within the one being that is God (YHWH) there are a distinctions in relationships and roles, but each person of the Trinity is fully YHWH, the true God, in being. Grudem continues:
quote:Öit is important to affirm that each person is completely and fully God; that is, that each person has the whole fullness of Godís being in himself. The Son is not partly God or just one-third of God, but the Son is wholly and fully God, and so is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Öwe must say that the person of the Father possesses the whole being of God in himself. Similarly, the Son possesses the whole being of God in himself, and the Holy Spirit possesses the whole being of God in himself. When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, or the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone. The Father is all of Godís being. The Son also is all of Godís being. And the Holy Spirit is all of Godís being.
Grwaitemd, all of these concepts that Grudem has presented are born out in scripture again and again. That is why I have been going to such great pains to show from a wealth of scripture that there is only one God in being (YHWH) and that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all equally God. Last night I began to demonstrate from scripture that Jesus has all the attributes of YHWH and that Jesus is YHWH, the only God. I will continue to show from the Bible that Jesus is YHWH in my very next installment.
Chris
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Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:40 pm: | |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part III
Last night I began to show from scripture that Jesus is YHWH, the one true God. I would like to continue with this tonight. As I did last night, I will provide a scripture stating the attributes of YHWH the one true God, then provide scripture showing that Jesus has the exact same attributes and is therefore YHWH Himself. As previously, whenever LORD or Lord GOD is used in all caps, it is representing the Hebrew tetragrammaton, YHWH, the personal name of the one true God.
Who is the first and the last?
quote:Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)
6 "Thus says the LORD [YHWH], the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Revelation 1:17 (NASB)
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Who is the Rock of salvation?
quote:2 Samuel 22:32 (NASB)
32 "For who is God, besides the LORD [YHWH]? And who is a rock, besides our God?
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB)
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Who is the stone of stumbling?
quote:Isaiah 8:13-15 (NASB)
13 "It is the LORD [YHWH] of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be your fear, And He shall be your dread.
14 "Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 "Many will stumble over them, Then they will fall and be broken; They will even be snared and caught."
1 Peter 2:8 (NASB)
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom?
quote:Isaiah 40:3 (NASB)
3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD [YHWH] in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
Matthew 3:3 (NASB)
3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!' "
Who is eternal?
quote:Genesis 21:33 (NASB)
33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD [YHWH], the Everlasting God.
Micah 5:2 (NASB)
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
Who is the fountain of living waters?
quote:Jeremiah 17:13 (NASB)
13 O LORD [YHWH], the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD [YHWH].
John 4:10-14 (NASB)
10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
11 She said* to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12 "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?"
13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Who resurrects the dead?
quote:Acts 26:8 (NASB)
8 "Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?
John 6:40 (NASB)
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Who gives rewards to man?
quote:Isaiah 40:10 (NASB)
10 Behold, the Lord GOD [YHWH] will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him.
Matthew 16:27 (NASB)
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Who has all authority and power?
quote:1 Chronicles 29:11 (NASB)
11 "Yours, O LORD [YHWH], is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Who gives power and authority to man?
quote:Psalms 68:35 (NASB)
35 O God, You are awesome from Your sanctuary. The God of Israel Himself gives strength and power to the people. Blessed be God!
Luke 9:1 (NASB)
1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases.
Who is the fountain of living waters?
quote:Jeremiah 17:13 (NASB)
13 O LORD [YHWH], the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD [YHWH].
John 4:10-14 (NASB)
10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
11 She said* to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12 "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?"
13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Who resurrects the dead?
quote:Acts 26:8 (NASB)
8 "Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?
John 6:40 (NASB)
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Who gives rewards to man?
quote:Isaiah 40:10 (NASB)
10 Behold, the Lord GOD [YHWH] will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him.
Matthew 16:27 (NASB)
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Who has all authority and power?
quote:1 Chronicles 29:11 (NASB)
11 "Yours, O LORD [YHWH], is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Who gives power and authority to man?
quote:Psalms 68:35 (NASB)
35 O God, You are awesome from Your sanctuary. The God of Israel Himself gives strength and power to the people. Blessed be God!
Luke 9:1 (NASB)
1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases.
There are many more texts showing that Jesus is YHWH, the one God. It may seem redundant to keep piling scripture on top of scripture, but I'm interested in demonstrating how overwhelmingly these truths are taught throughout scripture. I will continue with more scripture this weekend.
Chris
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