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Grwaitemd
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Brix:
There is a difference between "The Mighty God" and "The Almighty God".
Grwaitemd
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chris:
The Son declared that the only true God is his Father. The Son cannot be the only true God. The word "only" means one and that is the Father. You have not explained John 14:28; John 5:19; Mark 13:32; Matthew 28:18; John 17:2; Revelation 1:1; and John 5:26. The Son's own words show that he is not fully God in the sense that the Father is fully God. There is but one God the Father. 1 Corinthians 8:6. There is only one God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in you all. Ephesians 4:6.
Helovesme2
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grwaitemd said:


quote:

There is a difference between "The Mighty God" and "The Almighty God".




Two different Gods? Yet God says, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me." Isaiah 45:5

Jesus is God come in the flesh, tabernacled among us. Our Creator placing Himself into His creation at a particular time and space so that we can better relate to Him.

If he were any less, or any other, He would be a false god, or worse.

My tupence,

Mary
Grwaitemd
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Heloveme2:
The Father of the Son is the only true God, the Most High God, and the Highest. I worship the same God who the Son worshiped and who declared that his Father was his God.
What God do you worship?
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grwaitemd, I am now questioning if you have read any of the posts in this thread or the previous thread where the discussion began. I've already addressed the texts you mentioned as has Colleen.

1) I have previously stated that in the incarnation Jesus voluntarily laid aside the prerogatives and privileges of His deity, but not the attributes or nature of deity. During the incarnation Jesus lived in complete dependence upon and obedience to the Father.

2) I have also recently stated that there is an eternal economy of roles in the Trinity.

The texts you listed teach these two Biblical realities.

The texts you listed can NOT mean that there are greater gods and lesser gods with the Father being the greater god and the Son being some sort of lesser god.

I have shown with text after text that there is only one single God, YHWH, and there are no others. I have shown from scripture that the Father is God (YHWH) and I have begun showing from scripture (but not completed) that Jesus is YHWH.

You must ask yourself if you will bend the knee to the teaching of scripture.

The following are some excerpts from CARM that may help you with your questions.


quote:

If Jesus is God, then why did He say
the Father was greater than He?
"You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I will come to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).
Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."
Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people.
A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.
So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).
For further reading please see the two natures of Jesus.
SCRIPTURES QUOTED:
Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"
Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
Heb. 2:9, "But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."

If Jesus is God why did He not know
the hour of his return?
Mark 13:32

(Mark 13:30-32), "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone,"
This statement is found only in the gospel of Mark. The answer is simple. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9) and during His ministry in Jerusalem, He was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power. This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7). This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven? Why? Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human. That is why He said He didn't know the day or hour of His return.
However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things.




Below are some commentaries on the other texts you mentioned:


quote:

Notes for John 5:19
Verse 19. The Son can do nothing of himself - Because of his inseparable union with the Father: nor can the Father do any thing of himself, because of his infinite unity with the Son.

What things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son - God does nothing but what Christ does. What God does is the work of God, and proper to no creature- Jesus does whatsoever God does, and therefore is no created being. The Son can do nothing but what he sees the Father do: now, any intelligent creature may do what God cannot do: he may err- he may sin. If Jesus can do nothing but what God does, then he is no creature- he can neither sin nor err, nor act imperfectly. The conclusion from our Lord's argument is: If I have broken the Sabbath, so has God also; for I can do nothing but what I see him doing. He is ever governing and preserving; I am ever employed in saving.
Adam Clarke's Commentary

Notes for Matt 28:18
Verse 18. And Jesus came and spake unto them - It is supposed by some that the reason why any doubted was, that when they saw Jesus at first, he was at a distance; but when he came up, drew near to them, they were fully persuaded of the identity of his person.

All power is given unto me - Or, All authority in heaven and upon earth is given unto me. One fruit of the sufferings and resurrection of Christ is represented to be, his having authority or right in heaven to send down the Holy Spirit- to raise up his followers thither- and to crown them in the kingdom of an endless glory: in earth, to convert sinners; to sanctify, protect, and perfect his Church; to subdue all nations to himself; and, finally, to judge all mankind. If Jesus Christ were not equal with the Father, could he have claimed this equality of power, without being guilty of impiety and blasphemy? Surely not; and does he not, in the fullest manner, assert his Godhead, and his equality with the Father, by claiming and possessing all the authority in heaven and earth?- i. e. all the power and authority by which both empires are governed?
Adam Clarke's Commentary

John 17:2. In the Father-Son relationship of this passage, we also see the sovereignty of our Lord: authority over all people. This is the same word (exou-sian) found in the Great Commission when Matthew recorded Jesus' words about having received all authority from the Father. We do not often use the word glorification, but the New Testament applies it to Jesus in order to describe a fuller manifestation of his true nature that would become more acute at the time of the resurrection and ascension.
We should note that the Lord did not request power. Jesus did not take on sovereignty and omnipotence after the ascension. These eternal qualities he possessed then and he still possesses today as a member of the eternal Godhead. The result of this authority over all people and the major purpose of its exercise by the Son centers in eternal life for those designated to receive it. The entire prayer keys to this central idea of eternal life, since that is the result of the glorification of Christ in the lives of people. The Father gives Christ believers. This fact is emphasized no fewer than seven times in this chapter (vv. 2,6,9,11-12,24).
Holman New Testament Commentary

THE DIVINE ORIGIN, THE DESIGN, AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS BOOK. Rev. 1:1-3
This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ; the whole Bible is so; for all revelation comes through Christ, and all relates to him. Its principal subject is to discover the purposes of God concerning the affairs of the church, and of the nations as connected therewith, to the end of the world. These events would surely come to pass; and they would begin to come to pass very shortly. Though Christ is himself God, and has light and life in himself, yet, as Mediator between God and man, he receives instructions from the Father. To him we owe the knowledge of what we are to expect from God, and what he expects from us. The subject of this revelation was, the things that must shortly come to pass. On all who read or hear the words of the prophecy, a blessing is pronounced. Those are well employed who search the Bible. It is not enough that we read and hear, but we must keep the things that are written, in our memories, in our minds, in our affections, and in practice, and we shall be blessed in the deed. Even the mysteries and difficulties of this book are united with discoveries of God, suited to impress the mind with awe, and to purify the soul of the reader, though he may not discern the prophetic meaning. No part of Scripture more fully states the gospel, and warns against the evil of sin.
Matthew Henry Concise

John 5:24-29 He claimed to have authority to raise the dead (vv. 24-29). For a second time, Jesus introduced His words with the solemn "verily, verily" (see John 5:19, 24-25). More than twenty times in John's Gospel you will find Jesus using this solemn form of address. It is as though He was saying, "Pay attention to this! What I am about to say is important!"
In this fascinating paragraph, Jesus spoke about four different resurrections. He described the resurrection of lost sinners into eternal life (see John 5:24-25; Eph. 2:1-10). The lost sinner is as lifeless and helpless as a corpse. No matter how an undertaker may prepare a corpse, it is still dead; and no corpse is "deader" than any other corpse. If you are dead, you are dead! The lost sinner is helpless to save himself and he certainly cannot give himself life.
How are dead sinners raised from the dead? By hearing God's Word and believing on God's Son. Jesus healed the paralyzed man at the pool by His word (John 5:8). Each time He raised somebody from the dead, He spoke the word (Luke 7:11-17; 8:49-56; John 11:41-44). His Word is "living and powerful" (Heb. 4:12) and can raise sinners from spiritual death. "Everlasting life" means that they can never die spiritually again, nor can they ever come into judgment (Rom. 8:1). To hear His Word and believe means salvation; to reject His Word means condemnation (John 12:48).
The second resurrection mentioned is the resurrection of our Lord Himself (John 5:26). Our life is derived, but His life is original, "in Himself." "In Him was life" (John 1:4). The grave could not hold Him because He is "the Prince of Life" (Acts 2:24; 3:15). Jesus laid down His life and then took it up again (John 10:17-18). Because He has life in Himself, He can share that life with all who will trust Him.
The third resurrection named is the future resurrection of life, when believers are raised from the dead (John 5:28-29a). This wonderful truth is explained in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15. Keep in mind that resurrection is not reconstruction. It does not imply that God "puts the pieces back together again." The resurrection body is a new body, a glorified body, suited to the new heavenly environment. Death is not the end for the believer, nor will he live in heaven as a disembodied spirit. God saves the whole person, and this includes the body (Rom. 8:23; Phil. 3:20-21). This resurrection of life will take place when Jesus Christ returns in the air and calls His people to Himself.
The fourth resurrection He mentioned is the resurrection of condemnation (John 5:29b). This resurrection involves only the lost, and it will take place just before Jesus Christ ushers in the new heaven and the new earth (Rev. 20:11-15). What an awesome event that will be, when the dead "small and great" stand before Jesus Christ! The Father has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22) and has given Him the authority to execute judgment (John 5:27). Today Jesus Christ is the Saviour, but one day He shall sit as the Judge.
The title "Son of man" used in John 5:27 refers to Daniel 7:13-14 and is a definite messianic title. It is used twelve times in John's Gospel and over eighty times in all four Gospels. The Jews would know this title from their reading of the Book of Daniel; and they would know that, by using it, Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah, and the Judge.
Believers will be given resurrection bodies so that they might reign with Christ in glory. Unbelievers will be given resurrection bodiesbut not glorified bodiesthat they might be judged and then suffer punishment in those bodies. Bodies that were used for sin will suffer the consequences of that sin.
The fact that Jesus has the authority to raise the dead is proof that He is equal with the Father, and therefore He is God.
Bible Exposition Commentary - New Testament

I Cor. 8:6
But to us. Christians. We acknowledge but one God. Whatever the heathen worship, we know that there is but one God; and he alone has a right to rule over us.
One God, the Father. Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word "Father" here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the Divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction--the Father as distinguished from Ms offspring, the works that owe their origin to him. This is manifest,
(1.) because the apostle does not use the correlative term "Son," when he comes to speak of the "one Lord Jesus Christ;" and,
(2.) because the scope of the passage requires it. The apostle speaks of God, of the Divine nature, the one infinitely holy Being, as sustaining the relation of Father to his creatures. He produced them. He provides for them. He protects them, as a father does his children. He regards their welfare; pities them in their sorrows; sustains them in trial; shows himself to be their friend. The name Father is thus given frequently to God, as applicable to the one God, the Divine Being, Ps 103:13 Jer 31:9 Mal 1:6 2:10 Mt 6:9 Lu 11:2, etc. In other places it is applied to the first person of the Trinity as distinguished from the second; and in these instances the correlative Son is used, Luke 10:22 22:42 Joh 1:18 3:35 5:19-23,26,30,36 Heb 1:5; 2Pe 1:17, etc.
Of whom. ex ou. From whom, as a fountain and source; by whose counsel, plan, and purpose. He is the great source of all; and all depend on him. It was by his purpose and power that all things were formed, and to all he sustains the relation of a Father. The agent in producing all things, however, was the Son, Col 1:16. See Barnes "John 1:3".
Are all things. These words evidently refer to the whole work of creation, as deriving their origin from God, Ge 1:1. Everything has thus been formed in accordance with his plan; and all things now depend on him as their Father.
And we. We Christians. We are what we are by him. We owe our existence to him; and by him we have been regenerated and saved. It is owing to his counsel, purpose, agency, that we have an existence; and owing to him that we have the hope of eternal life. The leading idea here is, probably, that to God Christians owe their hopes and happiness.
In him. eiv auton; or rather, unto him: that is, we are formed for hun, and should live to his glory. We have been made what we are, as Christians, that we may promote his honour and glory.
And one Lord, etc. One Lord, in contradistinction from the "many lords" whom the heathens worshipped. The word Lord here is used in the sense of proprietor, ruler, governor, or king; and the idea is, that Christians acknowledge subjection to him alone, and not to many sovereigns, as the heathens did. Jesus Christ is the Ruler and Lord of his people. They acknowledge their allegiance to him as their supreme Lawgiver and King. They do not acknowledge subjection to many rulers, whether imaginary gods or men; but receive their laws from him alone. The word "Lord" here does not imply of necessity any inferiority to God; since it is a term which is frequently applied to God himself. The idea in the passage is, that from God, the Father of all, we derive our existence, and all that we have; and that we acknowledge immediate and direct subjection to the Lord Jesus as our Lawgiver and Sovereign. From him Christians receive their laws, and to him they submit their lives. And this idea is so far from supposing inferiority in the Lord Jesus to God, that it rather supposes equality; since a right to give laws to men, to rule their consciences, to direct their religious opinions, and their lives, can appropriately appertain only to one who has equality with God.
By whom, etc. di ou. By whose agency; or through whom, as the agent. The word "by" (di) stands in contradistinction from "of" (ex) in the former part of the verse; and obviously means, that though "all things" derived their existence from God, as the Fountain and Author, yet it was "by" the agency of the Lord Jesus. This doctrine, that the Son of God was the great agent in the creation of the world, is elsewhere abundantly taught in the Scriptures. See Barnes "John 1:3".
Are all things. The universe; for so the phrase ta panta, properly means. No words could better express the idea of the universe than these; and the declaration is therefore explicit that the Lord Jesus created all things. Some explain this of the "new creation;" as if Paul had said that all things pertaining to our salvation were from him. But the objections to this interpretation are obvious.
(1.) It is not the natural signification.
(2.) The phrase "all things" naturally denotes the universe.
(3.) The scope of the passage requires us so to understand it. Paul is not speaking of the new creature; but he is speaking of the question whether there is more than one God, one Creator, one Ruler, over the wide universe. The heathen said there was; Christians affirmed that there was not. The scope, therefore, of the passage requires us to understand this of the vast material universe; and the obvious declaration here is, that the Lord Jesus was the Creator of all.
And we. We Christians, (1Pe 1:21;) or, we as men; we have derived our existence "by" (di) or through him. The expression will apply either to our original creation, or to our hopes of heaven, as being by him; and is equally true respecting both. Probably the idea is, that all that we have, as men and as Christians, our lives and our hopes, are through him, and by his agency.
By him. (di autou) By his agency. Paul had said, in respect to God the Father of all, that we were unto (eiv) him; he here says that in regard to the Lord Jesus, we are by (di) him, or by his agency. The sense is, "God is the author, the former of the plan; the source of being and of hope; and we are to live to him: but Jesus is the agent by whom all these things are made, and through whom they are conferred on us." Arians and Socinians have made use of this passage to prove that the Son was inferior to God; and the argument is, that the name God is not given to Jesus, but another name implying inferiority; and that the design of Paul was to make a distinction between God and the Lord Jesus. It is not the design of these Notes to examine opinions in theology; but in reply to this argument we may observe briefly,
(1.) that those who hold to the divinity of the Lord Jesus do not deny that there is a distinction between him and the Father: they fully admit and maintain it, both in regard to his eternal existence, (i.e., that there is an eternal distinction of persons in the Godhead,) and in regard to his office as Mediator.
(2.) The term "Lord," given here, does not of necessity suppose that he is inferior to God.
(3.) The design of the passage supposes that there was equality in some respects. God the Father and the Lord Jesus sustain relations to men that in some sense correspond to the "many gods" and the "many lords" that the heathen adored; but they were equal in nature.
(4.) The work of creation is expressly in this passage ascribed to the Lord Jesus. But the work of creation cannot be performed by a creature. There can be no delegated God, and no delegated omnipotence, or delegated infinite wisdom and omnipresence. The work of creation implies divinity; or it is impossible to prove that there is a God: and if the Lord Jesus made "ALL THINGS," he must be God.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

Notes for Eph. 4:6
Verse 6. One God - The fountain of all being, self-existent and eternal; and Father of all, both Jews and Gentiles, because he is the Father of the spirits of all flesh.

Who is above all - o epi pantwn? Who is over all; as the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

And through all - Pervading every thing; being present with every thing; providing for all creatures; and by his energy supporting all things.

And in you all. - By the energy of his Spirit, enlightening, quickening, purifying, and comforting; in a word, making your hearts the temples of the Holy Ghost. Some think the mystery of the blessed Trinity is contained in this verse: God is over all, as Father; through all, by the Logos or Word; and in all, by the Holy Spirit.
Adam Clarke's Commentary




Chris
Brix
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Gwaitemd, What were discussing is the concept of oneness, the essance of oneness. Read Jesus's prayer in John 17v6-11, then look at Heb 1v3 Can you seperate God from his glory?
Grwaitemd
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chris:
So, when the Son was a man here on earth he did not speak the truth when he said that his Father was the only true God.
Even after he ascended to heaven, the Son stated that his Father was his God. See Revelation 3:12.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." See 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
What God is being talked about here? A single being manifested in three persons or the Father only?
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh MAN! I appreciate this discussion. While I can't wrap my mind around the concept of the Trinity, the Bible DOES clearly teach it.

Chris, I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the time you've put into this study. I often feel like I'm 'chasing my tail' when I try to 'think' through the Trinity conceptually. It really is just a matter of looking at the clear Scriptural support and then choosing to accept it even though I can't fully grasp it.

Patria
Helovesme2
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 5:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus referred to the Father as His God, and in Hebrews Jesus is referred to as God by His Father. In my understanding, neither of them was lying.

Mary
Chris
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grw,

The Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the Holy Spirit is the only true God. The Father, Son, and Spirit are equally YHWH.

Please read the study. If you believe the texts I posted in part I teach that there is more than one god, then please explain each text from a polytheistic standpoint. If you believe the texts in part II & III teach that Jesus is not YHWH, then please explain those texts from an arian perspective.

Grw, here's the deal. The Bible overwhelming teaches that there is only one God, YHWH. The Bible overwhelmingly teaches that Jesus is that one God, YHWH. I will present even more evidence from scripture of Jesus being YHWH this weekend.

When a person attempts to make Jesus anything less than YHWH, the one true God, they not only are forced to fly in the face of mountains of scripture, but they denigrate Christ and rob Him of His rightful place as the only God. It is extremely difficult for me to understand the motivation behind Arianism. Arianism is a very hard row to hoe. In order to advocate for such blasphemy one must reject the Jesus of scripture as well as large chunks of the Bible itself. But one fact remains, whether you choose to accept it or not: JESUS IS YHWH.

As to I Cor. 15:24-28, I have already said that there is an eternal economy of roles and realtionships in the persons of the Trinity.

When we speak of the persons of the Trinity we speak of ontological equality, but relational subordination. That is, The Father, Son, and Spirit are completely equal in their being, but there is an economy of subordination in their roles and relationships.

In 1 Cor. 11:3 and 15:28 we see that Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to the Father.

In John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1;3; Rev. 1:6; and 3:12 we see that Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).

The following addresses I Cor. 15:24-28 in even more detail.


quote:

Verse 24:
Then cometh the end. Then is the end; or then is the consummation. It does not mean that the end, or consummation, is to follow that event; but that this will be the ending, the winding up, the consummation of the affairs under the mediatorial reign of Christ. The word end (telov) denotes, properly, a limit, termination, completion of anything. The proper and obvious meaning of the word here is, that then shall be the end or completion of the work of redemption. That shall have been done which was intended to be done by the incarnation and the work of the atonement; the race shall be redeemed; the friends of God shall be completely recovered; and the administration of the affairs of the universe shall be conducted as they were before the incarnation of the Redeemer. Some understand the word "end" here, however, as a metaphor, meaning "the last, or the rest of the dead;" but this is a forced and improbable interpretation. The word end here may refer to the end of human affairs, or the end of the kingdoms of this world; or it may refer to the end of the mediatorial kingdom of the Redeemer-- the consummation of his peculiar reign and work resulting in the surrender of the kingdom to the Father. The connexion demands the last interpretation, though this involves also the former.
When he shall have delivered up. paradw. This word means, properly, to give near, with, or to any one; to give over, to deliver up. --Robinson. It is applied to the act of delivering up persons to the power or authority of others--as, e.g., to magistrates for trial and condemnation, (Mat 5:25 Mr 15:1 Lu 20:20;) to lictors, or soldiers, for punishment, (Mat 18:34;) or to one's enemies, Mat 26:15. It is applied also to persons or things delivered over or surrendered, to do or suffer anything, Acts 14:26 1Co 13:3 Eph 4:19. It is also applied to persons or things delivered over to the care, charge, or supervision of any one, in the sense of giving up, intrusting, committing, Mat 11:27 25:14 Lu 4:6 10:22. Here the obvious sense is that of surrendering, giving back, delivering up, rendering up that which had been received, implying that an important trust had been received, which was now to be rendered back. And according to this interpretation it means,
(1.) that the Lord Jesus had received or been intrusted with an important power or office as Mediator, See Barnes "Mat 18:18";
(2.) that he had executed the purpose implied in that trust or commission; and,
(3.) that he was now rendering back to God that office or authority which he had received at his hands. As the work had been accomplished which had been contemplated in his design; as there would be no further necessity for mediation when redemption should have been made, and his church recovered from sin and brought to glory, there would be no further need of that peculiar arrangement which had been implied in the work of redemption, and, of course, all the intrustment of power involved in that would be again restored to the hands of God. The idea, says Grotius, is, that he would deliver up the kingdom as the governors of provinces render again or deliver up their commission and authority to the Caesars who appointed them. There is no absurdity in this view. For if the world was to be redeemed, it was necessary that the Redeemer should be intrusted with power sufficient for his work. When that work was done, and there was no further need of that peculiar exercise of power, then it would be proper that it should be restored, or that the government of God should be administered as it was before the work of redemption was undertaken; that the Divinity, or the God-head, as such, should preside over the destinies of the universe. Of course, it will not follow that the Second Person of the Trinity will surrender all power, or cease to exercise government. It will be that power only which he had as Mediator; and whatever part in the administration of the government of the universe he shared as Divine before the incarnation, he will still share, with the additional glory and honour of having redeemed a world by his death.
The kingdom. This word means properly dominion, reign, the exercise of kingly power. In the New Testament it means commonly the reign of the Messiah, or the dominion which God would exercise through the Messiah; the reign of God over men by the laws and institutions of the Messiah. See Barnes "Mat 3:2". Here it means, I think, evidently, dominion in general. It cannot denote the peculiar administration over the world involved in the work of mediation, for that will be ended; but it means that the empire, the sovereignty, shall have been delivered up to God. His enemies shall have been subdued. His power shall have been asserted. The authority of God shall have been established, and the kingdom, or the dominion, shall be in the hands of God himself; and he shall reign, not in the peculiar form which existed in the work of mediation, but absolutely, and as he did over obedient minds before the incarnation.
To God. To God as God; to the Divinity. The Mediator shall have given up the peculiar power and rule as Mediator, and it shall be exercised by God as God.
Even the Father. And (kai) the Father. The word Father, as applied to God in the Scriptures, is used in two senses: to designate the Father, the first person of the Trinity as distinguished from the Son; and in a broader, wider sense, to denote God as sustaining the relation of a Father to his creatures--as the Father of all. Instances of this use are too numerous to be here particularly referred to. It is in this latter sense, perhaps, that the word is used here--not to denote that the second person of the Trinity is to surrender all power into the hands of the first, or that he is to cease to exercise dominion and control; but that the power is to be yielded into the hands of God as God, i.e., as the universal Father, as the Divinity, without being exercised in any peculiar and special manner by the different persons of the Godhead, as had been done in the work of redemption. At the close of the work of redemption this peculiar arrangement would cease; and God, as the universal Father and Ruler of all, would exercise the government of the world. See Barnes "1Co 15:28".
When he shall have put down. When he shall have abolished, or brought to nought, all that opposed the reign of God.
All rule, etc. All those mighty powers that opposed God and resisted his reign. The words here used do not seem intended to denote the several departments or forms of opposition, but to be general terms, meaning that whatever opposed God should be subdued. They include, of course, the kingdoms of this world; the sins, pride, and corruption of the human heart; the powers of darkness-the spiritual dominions that oppose God on earth and in hell, and death and the grave. All shall be completely subdued, and cease to interpose any obstacles to the advancement of his kingdom and to his universal reign. A monarch reigns when all his enemies are subdued or destroyed; or when they are prevented from opposing his will, even though all should not voluntarily submit to his will. The following remarks of Prof. Bush present a plausible and ingenious view of this difficult passage, and they are, therefore, subjoined here.
"If the opinion of the eminent critic, Storr, may be admitted, that the kingdom here said to be delivered up to the Father is not the kingdom of Christ, but the rule and dominion of all adverse powers,--an opinion rendered very probable by the following words: 'when he shall have put down (Gr., done away, abolished) all rule, and all authority and power' -- and 1Co 15:25, 'till he hath put all enemies under his feet,'--then is the passage of identical import with Rev 11:15, referring to precisely the same period:' And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.' It is therefore, we conceive, but a peculiar mode of denoting the transfer, the making over of the kingdoms of this world from their former despotic and antichristian rulers to the sovereignty of Jesus Christ, the appointed heir and head of all things, whose kingdom is to be everlasting. If this interpretation be correct, we are prepared to advance a step farther, and suggest that the phrase, he shall have delivered up, (Greek, paradw,) be understood as an instance of the idiom in which the verb is used without any personal nominative, but has reference to the purpose of God as expressed in the Scriptures; so that the passage may be read, Then cometh the end, (i.e., not the close, the final winding up, but the perfect development, expansion, completion, consummation of the Divine plans in regard to this world,) when the prophetic announcements of the Scriptures require the delivering up (i.e., the making over) of all adverse dominion into the hands of the Messiah, to whose supremacy we are taught to expect that everything will finally be made subject."--
Illustrations of Scripture. A more extended examination of this difficult passage may be seen in Storr's Opuscala, vol. i., pp. 274--282. See also Biblical Repository, vol. iii., pp. 748--755.
Verse 25:
For he must reign. It is fit, or proper, (dei,) that he should reign till this is accomplished. It is proper that the mediator kingdom should continue till this great work is effected. The word "must" here refers to the propriety of this continuance of his reign, and to the fact that this was contemplated and predicted as the work which he would accomplish. He came to subdue all his enemies. See Ps 2:6-10 90:1, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Paul, doubtless, had this passage in his eye as affirming the necessity that he should reign until all his foes should be subdued. That this refers to the Messiah is abundantly clear from Mat 22:44,45.
Verse 26:
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. The other foes of God should be subdued before the final resurrection. The enmity of the human heart should be subdued by the triumphs of the gospel. The sceptre of Satan should be broken and wrested from him. The false systems of religion that had tyrannized over men should be destroyed. The gospel should have spread everywhere, and the world be converted to God. And nothing should remain but to subdue or destroy death, and that would be by the resurrection. It would be,
(1.) because the resurrection would be a triumph over death, showing that there was one of greater power, and that the sceptre would be wrested from the hands of death.
(2.) Because death would cease to reign. No more would ever die. All that should be raised up would live for ever; and the effects of sin and rebellion in this world would be thus for ever ended, and the kingdom of God restored. Death is here personified as a tyrant, exercising despotic power over the human race; and he is to be subdued.
Verse 27:
For he hath put. God has put by promise, purpose, or decree.
All things under his feet. He has made all things subject to him; or has appointed him to be head over all things. Compare Mat 28:18 Joh 17:2 Eph 1:20-22. It is evident that Paul here refers to some promise or prediction respecting the Messiah, though he does not expressly quote any passage, or make it certain to what he refers. The words "hath put all things under his feet" are found in Ps 8:6, as applicable to man, and as designed to show the dignity and dominion of man. Whether the psalm has any reference to the Messiah has been made a question. Those who are disposed to see an examination of this question may find it in Stuart on the Hebrews, on chap. ii. 6--8; and in Excursus ix. of the same work, pp. 568--570; Ed. 1833. In the passage before us, it is not necessary to suppose that Paul meant to say that the psalm had a particular reference to the Messiah. All that is implied is, that it was the intention of God to subdue all things to him; this was the general strain of the prophecies in regard to him; this was the purpose of God; and this idea is accurately expressed in the words of the psalm; or these words will convey the general sense of the prophetic writings in regard to the Messiah. It may be true, also, that although the passage in Ps 8 has no immediate and direct reference to the Messiah, yet it includes him as one who possessed human nature. The psalm may be understood as affirming that all things were subjected to human nature; i.e., human nature had dominion and control over all. But this was more particularly and eminently true of the Messiah than of any other man. In all other cases, great as was the dignity of man, yet his control over "all things" was limited and partial. In the Messiah it was to be complete and entire. His dominion, therefore, was a complete fulfilment, i. e., filling up (plhrwma) of the words in the psalm. Under Him alone was there to be an entire accomplishment of what is there said; and as that psalm was to be fulfilled, as it was to be true that it might be said of man that all things were subject to him, it was to be fulfilled mainly in the person of the Messiah, whose human nature was to be exalted above all things. Compare Heb 2:6-9.
But when he saith. When God says; or when it is said; when that promise is made respecting the Messiah.
It is manifest. It must be so; it must be so understood and interpreted.
That he is excepted, etc. That God is excepted; that it cannot mean that the appointing power is to be subject to him. Paul may have made this remark for several reasons. Perhaps,
(1.) to avoid the possibility of cavil, or misconstruction of the phrase, "all things," as if it meant that God would be included, and would be subdued to him; as, among the heathen, Jupiter is fabled to have expelled his father Saturn from his throne and from heaven.
(2.) It might be to prevent the supposition, from what Paul had said of the extent of the Son's dominion, that he was in any respect superior to the Father. It is implied by this exception here, that when the necessity for the peculiar mediatorial kingdom of the Son should cease, there would be a resuming of the authority and dominion of the Father, in the manner in which it subsisted before the incarnation.
(3.) The expression may also be regarded as intensive or emphatic; as denoting, in the most absolute sense, that there was nothing in the universe, but God, which was not subject to him. God was the only exception; and his dominion, therefore, was absolute over all other beings and things.
Verse 28:
And when, etc. In this future time, when this shall be accomplished. This implies that the time has not yet arrived, and that his dominion is now exercised, and that he is carrying forward his plans for the subjugation of all things to God.
Shall be subdued unto him. Shall be brought under subjection. When all his enemies shall be overcome and destroyed; or when the hearts of the redeemed shall be entirely subject to God. When God's kingdom shall be fully established over the universe. It shall then be seen that he is Lord of all. In the previous verses he had spoken of the promise that all things should be subjected to God; in this he speaks of its being actually done.
Then shall the Son also himself be subject, etc. It has been proposed to render this, "even then shall the Son," etc.; implying, that he had been all along subject to God; had acted under his authority; and that this subjection would continue even then in a sense similar to that in which it had existed; and that Christ would then continue to exercise a delegated authority over his people and kingdom. See an article "on the duration of Christ's kingdom," by Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748, seq. But to this interpretation there are objections.
(1.) It is not the obvious interpretation.
(2.) It does not seem to comport with the design and scope of the passage, which most evidently refers to some change, or rendering back of the authority of the Messiah; or to some resumption of authority by the Divinity, or by God as God, in a different sense from what existed under the Messiah.
(3.) Such a statement would be unnecessary and vain. Who could reasonably doubt that the Son would be as much subject to God when all things had been subdued to him as he was before?
(4.) It is not necessary to suppose this in order to reconcile the passage with what is said of the perpetuity of Christ's kingdom and his eternal reign. That he would reign--that his kingdom would be perpetual, and that it would be unending--was indeed clearly predicted. See 2Sa 7:16 Ps 45:6 Isa 9:6,7 Da 2:44 7:14 Lu 1:32,33 Heb 1:8. But these predictions may be all accomplished on the supposition that the peculiar mediatorial kingdom of the Messiah shah be given up to God, and that he shall be subject to him. For
(a.) his kingdom will be perpetual, in contradistinction from the kingdoms of this world. They are fluctuating, changing, short in their duration. His shall not cease, and shall continue to the end of time.
(b.) His kingdom shall be perpetual, because those who are brought under the laws of God, by him, shall remain subject to those laws for ever. The sceptre never shall be broken, and the kingdom shall abide to all eternity.
(c.) Christ, the Son of God, in his Divine nature, as God, shall never cease to reign. As Mediator, he may resign his commission and his peculiar office, having made an atonement, having recovered his people, having protected and guided them to heaven. Yet, as one with the Father, as the "Father of the everlasting age," (Isa 9:6,) he shall not cease to reign. The functions of a peculiar office may have been discharged, and delegated power laid down, and that which appropriately belongs to him in virtue of his own nature and relations may be resumed and executed for ever; and it shall still be true that the reign of the Son of God, in union, or in oneness with the Father, shall continue for ever.
(5.) The interpretation which affirms that the Son shall then be subject to the Father, in the sense of laying down his delegated authority, and ceasing to exercise his mediatorial reign, has been the common interpretation of all times. This remark is of value only because, in the interpretation of plain words, it is not probable that men of all classes and ranks in different ages would err.
The Son also himself. The term "Son of God" is applied to the Lord Jesus with reference to his human nature, his incarnation by the Holy Ghost, and his resurrection from the dead. See Barnes "Rom 1:4". It refers, I apprehend, to that in this place. It does not mean that the second person in the Trinity, as such, should be subject to the first; but it means the incarnate Son, the Mediator,--the man that was born and that was raised from the dead, and to whom this wide dominion had been given,--should resign that dominion, and that the government should be reassumed by the Divinity as God. As man, he shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion. This does not mean, evidently, that the union of the divine and human nature will be dissolved; nor that important purposes may not be answered by that continued union for ever; nor that the divine perfections may not shine forth in some glorious way through the man Christ Jesus; but that the purpose of government shall no longer be exercised in that way; the mediatorial kingdom, as such, shall no longer be continued, and power shall be exercised by God as God. The redeemed will still adore their Redeemer as their incarnate God, and dwell upon the remembrance of his work and upon his perfections, (Rev 1:5,6 5:12 11:16;) but not as exercising the peculiar power which he now has, and which was needful to effect their redemption.
That God may be all in all. That God may be SUPREME; that the Divinity, the Godhead, may rule; and that it may be seen that he is the Sovereign over all the universe. By the word "God" (o yedv) Whitby and Hammond, I think correctly, understand the Godhead, the Divine Nature, the Divinity, consisting of the Three Persons, without respect to any peculiar office or kingdom.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament




The bottom line here is that Jesus is YHWH and YHWH is the only God, there is no other.

Chris

Belvalew
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a Greek god named Janus who had two faces, one facing the past, one facing the future. This will sound simplistic, I'm sure, but the pagan world at times had glimpses of the One True God. The trinity is similar to Janus in that God is one God with three methods of manifestation, The Father, The Son (or Unique One), and The Holy Spirit. Thank you Chris, for mentioning omnipresence throughout this study. Omnipresence is the method whereby God can be all places at all times. Though God is everywhere all of the time, he may not be perceived in the same manner in all places all at the same time. In one place he is perceived as Holy Spirit, in another as Father God, and yet another as the Unique God/Man Jesus the Christ, also known as The Son. Please correct me if I have stated this incorrectly. The way the one True God manifests to a particular person, or group of persons, will be the way he is remembered for that particular event. For instance at Pentacost the One True God was manifest as The Holy Spirit.
Belvalew
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We speak of God as being "The Mighty God," "The Everlasting Father," and "The Prince of Peace." Any one of these descriptions, or all at once, can be applied to any one of the members of the Trinity, or all at once.
Chris
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, I'm afraid I need to disagree in the strongest of terms. This is very important.

The idea of God having "three methods of manifestation" is not a Christian concept. What you have described is a very serious heresy known as "Modalism". Modalism is an unbilbical false teaching that lies squarely in the kingdom of the cults.

God is not sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Spirit is not the Son or the Father. The Father, Son, and Spirit are eternally personally distinct. God is always at all times and all places eternally and simultaneously the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God has always experienced relationships of love and communication from all eternity. God is complete within and of Himself. There are real, eternal, subject/object distinctions between the persons of the Trinity. He has never been lonely, He has never been without love, He has never required anything. He is perfect and complete. The eternal realtionships within God define His being. The three persons of the Trinity are not only co-equal and co-eternal, but also co-essential.

I will plan on providing scriptural support for the persons of the Trinity being eternally personally distinct before I finish the study I have been posting.

Belva, if you are involved with a group or teacher that is promoting modalism, you need to know that this group or teacher is teaching against one of the essentials of the Christian faith and is teaching in direct opposition to Biblical truth.

Chris
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, Chris, I'm not into any studies of that sort. You might say that I'm still recovering from my Adventist confusion where the Trinity is concerned. As I've said myself, God exists on so many planes that we, as humans, cannot even fathom. Therefore, we often have difficulty comprehending things of God. Thank you for correcting me. I did ask you to do so and appreciate your willingness to clarify things for all of us. Your studies have been, and undoubtedly will continue to be invaluable to us.
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, I was very concerned because because modalism is making a modern day come back in the form of some cultic groups that are now known as "Oneness Pentacostalism". I know of at least one popular TV minister who teaches modalism. Yes, I know what you mean about the SDA confusion. I had a very messed up view of the Trinity as well coming out of Adventism. I would say we're all still unlearning some things. Thank you for your nice reply and your gentle spirit.

Chris
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Dear Chris:
The Son said that he is the true and faithful witness and he said he was the way the truth and the life. He said that his Father is the only true God. He did not say that the Son is the only true God and he did not say that the Holy Spirit is the only true God. He did not say that the Son is YHWH and he did not say the Holy Spirit is YHWH. If I believe that the Father is the only true God and that the Son is not the only true God, but rather a representative of the only true God (being in the express image of the only true God) and the Holy Spirit is not the only true God, but rather an agent or representative of the Son (comes in the name of the Son and only speaks what the Son gives him to speak), are you saying this is a false gospel because it does not agree with Barnes notes or Adam Clarke's commentary?
In regard to the Son being subject to the Father, are you or Branes' notes saying that the Son is only subject to the Father as a human being or person and not as a divine person? So are you saying that as a divine person the Son is not obligated to keep the first and fifth commandments and thus be subject to the Father who is the only true God?
Chris
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Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glenn,

What I am saying (and showing systematically) is that the testimony of scripture is the following:

1) There is only one God (YHWH).
2) The Father, Son, and Spirit are God (YHWH).
3) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct.

I have repeated myself many times on the eternal realtionships between the persons of the Trinity. I believe there is an eternal economy of subordination in roles, but an eternal equality of being. I also believe there was a unique relationship between the Father and the Son in the incarnation. It also seems possible to me, and several other commentators that there is some sense in which Christ's human nature is subordinate to His divine nature. I don't claim to understand the infinite God in every detail of His existence, but I do know the Bible clearly teaches these things:

1) There is only one God (YHWH).
2) The Father, Son, and Spirit are God (YHWH).
3) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct.

Glenn, in the following verse, who specifically is John preparing the way for?


quote:

Matthew 3:3 (NASB)
3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!' "




Chris


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Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 3:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chris:
Answer: The "LORD JESUS CHRIST" as distinguished from the "LORD GOD". You fail to make a distinction between the two Lords.
Have you not read the following: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." See Jude 4.
I am saying the following:
1. There is only one true God and that is the Father. John 17:3
2. THE FATHER IS THE LORD GOD AND THE SON IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST: The Father is the Lord God (Luke 1:32, 1:68; 1 Peter 3:15; Jude 4; Revelation 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 18:8, 19:6, 21:22, 22:5, 22:6) and the Son is the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17, 15:11, 16:31, 20:21, 28:31; Romans 1:7, 5:11, 13:14, 15:6, 16:24; 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1:7, 1:8, 1:10, 5:4, 8:5, 15:57, 16:22, 16:23; 2 Corinthians 1:2, 1:3, 8:9, 11:31, 13:14; Galatians 1:3, 6:14, 6:18; Ephesians 1:2, 1:3, 3:14, 5:20, 6:23, 6:24; Phillipians 1:2, 3:20, 4:23; Colossians 1:1, 1:3; 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1:2, 2:19, 3:11,3:13, 5:23, 5:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:1, 1:2, 1:8, 1:12, 2:1, 2:14, 2:16, 3:6, 3:12, 3:18; 1 Timothy 1:1, 5:21, 6:3, 6:3, 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3; James 1:1, 2:1; 1 Peter 1:3, 1:14, 1:15; 2 Peter 1:14, 1:16; 2 John 1:3; Jude 4, 21; Revelation 22:21).
3. The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct.
Chris
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Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glenn said:

quote:

Answer: The "LORD JESUS CHRIST"



So Glenn, you agree that according to Matt. 3:3 John was preparing the way for Jesus, "The Lord". Do you also realize that Matthew is quoting Isaiah 40:3? In Isaiah 40:3 the word being translated in English as "the LORD" is "YHWH" in Hebrew, the personal name of the one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


quote:

Isaiah 40:3 (NASB)
3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD [YHWH] in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.



Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Matthew writes that this prophecy applied directly to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is "the LORD" of the Old Testament (not some new or lesser Lord). Jesus Christ is the YHWH of the Old Testament, the only God (not some new or lesser God).

Jesus Christ is the LORD YHWH our God.

Chris
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Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chris:
Are there not two LORD YHWH spoken of in the Bible? One is the LORD YHWH GOD and the other is LORD YHWH JESUS CHRIST? Are they not distinct? Look up the verses I gave you.

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