| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2004  |
It is interesting to me, in connection with the 'Ten Commandments Day' push, the various 'fundamentalist movements', and the various 'liberal' directions some entities are going to see which direction demographic studies seem to be pointing us: http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-03-13-babybust_x.htm | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 995 Registered: 7-2004 |
There are several countries where the death rate is outstripping the birth rate. Among them are Italy, and Japan. There are probably more. The report I read about Japan is that almost no woman under the age of 30 has children any more. The women are much more interested in a career than in having a family. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 450 Registered: 8-2004 |
I guess the extreme environmentalists should be happy. Population is decreasing some! Mary | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2003 |
Fascinating article, thanks for the link, Mary. For me, being a liberal is a natural outcome of applying the Lord's Great Commandment that we love our neighbor (and our God). In my mind, that neighbor includes my (forthcoming) grandchildren and their contemporaries. We are obliged to be good stewards of God's Earth, for the sake of all future generations. A natural outcome of this conviction is concern about over-population. Just Google "million starving" and scan the result to get a glimpse at our current state. It's only going to get worse during the next century, as energy gets much more expensive, aquifers are depleted, deforestation continues until it is all gone, and the oceans rise with the melting icecaps. When I was in my early 20's, I seriously considered having a vasectomy, out of a sense of responsibility to the future. I guess I'm an extreme environmentalist.  Thus far, I've just had one child. I see a countervailing sentiment in some evangelical circles: if you believe that the Second Coming is due any year now, then why care about whether there's enough food and energy to sustain the species a hundred years from now? I have few objections to the Catholic church. I reject the "cult" characterization -- because the large majority of Christians are Catholics, and I cannot comprehend a God who would permit so many of His followers to be deceived. However, I think that the Catholic resistance to reduction in the birth rate, on all fronts, is irresponsible and portends poorly for the human race. One more comment about conservative Christians: They seem to be more concerned with the unborn than with the living. There's a wonderful passion against abortion, that I respect and admire -- but that passion seems to stop with the birth of the child. If we really cared about children in this country, there would be paid parental leave, national health insurance for all children, federally-funded day care, and adequate funding of early childhood education. These are all liberal precepts that have not succeeded in the political marketplace, in large part because of the religious right's single-minded concern with abortion. Where conservatives and liberals should agree is on minimizing the incidence of abortion. As Bill Clinton liked to say, "Abortions should be legal, safe, and infrequent." The most fervent abortion rights advocate doesn't LIKE abortion -- it's a horrible procedure, often leaving life-long damage. So we should all be for sex education that works to prevent pregnancy, and for universal distribution of effective birth control. But the Christian right abhors that, as promoting sexual promiscuity. Since they are against sex, but fail to actually prevent it -- they simply increase the pregnancy rate. And this world doesn't need more unwanted pregnancies. Ironically, the evangelicals are allied with the Catholic church in this domain. I'm confronting the abortion issue right now, personally. I haven't posted here very much, these past couple years. I mostly read, to enjoy the joy in Christ that is manifest in this forum. I was never an Adventist. I came to this site four years ago, for guidance regarding my son, whose mother is a kind-of Adventist. She doesn't believe in Ellen White, but she nonetheless takes my son to the SDA church and indoctrinates him in soul sleep, etc. I'm a conventional Protestant (Methodist). We are finally approaching our custody trial, after 4.5 years and $150,000 in legal fees (what a profound waste of money). Any prayers y'all care to send up are appreciated! I'm going to lose in court, though, for no better reason than I'm male and I'm out of money (mom's an MD with plenty of cash). Here's the good news! (Not the Good News . I've fallen in love with a wonderful woman. We're going to be married in July. She's a widow with two sons who were so young when he died, that they have no memory of their father. They are already calling me "Dad." (I love that.) And we're going to be parents again, in October! We are so blessed by God! We have been to the obstretician, where we were offered tests for Downs and other genetic defects. We said "no thanks" because my bride is a strong Catholic who would not consider ending the pregnancy. All life is precious. So we will take what God gives us, and be grateful. Praise God. THUS FAR, I've just had one child. But God our Father provides. This is an EXTREMELY wanted child. - Hoytster | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 454 Registered: 8-2004 |
Good to see you again Hoyster! I will be praying for the outcome of the custody battle. The 'extreme environmentalists' I referred to are the ones described by the bumper stickers I sometimes saw in San Francisco: "Save the world. Commit suicide", and such like. The ones who somehow think tha this world would be a better place if humans ceased to exist. Not the people who are seriously looking at the ramifications of the way we treat our planet, care about what is being done to it, are choosing to leave it a better place (environmentally and socially) than they found it. I believe that we humans are to be stewards, not tyrants or careless wasters to this planet God gave us. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1323 Registered: 7-2003 |
Good to hear from you, Hoyster. I continue to pray for you and your son. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3575 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hoytster, I'm glad to hear from you again! I, too, continue to pray for you and your children. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2152 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hoyster, It sure is good hearing from you once again. Congrats on getting a new wife and three new kids, as well as much loving of the kid you already have. Yes, you are certainly correct about your observation on some Christian groups placing way too much focus on pregnancy continuation and not enough focus on the needy people already here. I will share with you a very true story. my youngest child is now 20. His father with whom I was totally married to left me to go live with his girlfriend while I was pregnant with him. I went to the local "Christian" pregnancy counseling joint. I was told before I could get any help with stuff such as diapers, a crip, etc. I had to sit through a movie about the horrors of abortion. I kept telling the ladies there that I was not considering abortion but I was left desperate, with no money, pregnant and three young children and I could use any help I could get, especially baby things. These ladies kept asking me if I wasn't considering an abortion then how come was I even in their office? I kept telling them the brouchure given to me said "crisis prewgnancy assistance" and I for sure thought I was in an immediate crisis pregnancy situtation. Finily after around my third apointment with the lady I was given a box of used nearly threadbare baby clothes and then every week or so throughout the rest of my pregnancy someone from that place would phone me to try to pressure me into putting my baby up for adoption. I kept telling the ladies who would phone that I was not antiadoption but adoption wasn't the way I was going to deal with my situtation. Finily one of the ladies called once more to try to talk me into adoption and when I told her I'd had the baby several days before and I was holding him and loving him while we were talking she said something about hoping we were o.k. and hoping it all would work out and I never heard another word from them again. I always felt that group was not very pro-life or even very pro wanting to help those in need but the real motive was to get babies to adopt for their supporters. Have you ever read Sojourners magazine? You might like it. It is a Christian magazine, however regular Christian bookstores generally don't carry it but Barnes and noble and Boarders do. You also can read it on the Internet. It was great hearing from you once again. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 996 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Hoyster, You voiced my beef with the anti-abortioners who march around all arrogant about their love of life, yet there are starving and needy children in our midst that seem to be invisible to them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-abortion, but I am pro-responsibility. I was talking with my daughter yesterday and she mentioned that within the circle of six close friends, only she and one other girl have not had abortions. My daughter is 22. I know the mother of the other girl, and like me she has been willing to let her daughter make some decisions she may not agree with, but she was Johnny-on-the-spot to be sure that her daughter was not left vulnerable and unprepared. Both girls appear to be grateful that we cared enough to overlook our own discomfort to protect them. I agree with Bill Clinton--abortion should remain available, infrequent, and safe. I also have stressed to my daughter, and any of her friends who would listen, that abortion should not be viewed as a form of birth-control. Congratulations on your soon-to-be new arrival. I'll also pray that your custody battle will work out to the best for all concerned. A child needs to know that both of his parents love him dearly and are above using him as a means to hurt someone else. Best wishes for a Christ-centered family and marriage! Belva | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 122 Registered: 9-2003 |
Well, once again my confidence in FAF is rewarded. I know that my views are probably controversial on this forum -- but your response is loving and supportive. I love this forum! Thanks so much for your prayers and good wishes. God works in mysterious ways. Those of you who have been parents of adolescents have experienced the transformation where you (the parent) becomes comparatively insignificant, and same-age friends become the center of the universe. My son that used to cling to me, crying that he wanted to stay with me, when it was time to bring him back to his mother's -- is long, long gone. Nowadays, he and I have conversations while we drive to and from mom's; otherwise, he is with his soon-to-be step-brothers having a blast. The most notable feature of the three of them together is laughter -- which naturally fills me with pleasure. My son is happy! My son's mother is deadset on minimizing my time with our son. If she has her way, then when my son can be deemed "mature", in six months (age 13) or 18 months (age 14) -- she will have our son stand before the court to state that he doesn't want to see me anymore. I saw no solution to this. She would use any combination of threats and bribes to persuade him, including threatening to cut him off from her and her other children, if he insisted on seeing me. She would be too much for a 13/14-year-old to stand up to. God saw a solution, though: bring a woman into my life whose children are incredibly fun for my son to hang with. My fiance's sons are 10 and 12, my son is 12, the three are thick as thieves (whatever that means). So I'm increasingly confident that my son will go into chambers with the judge, a year or two from now, where his mother cannot hear what he says -- that my son will say "I like seeing my Dad." And because by then there will be a baby, and my son loves babies (chip off the old block ), he might add "I love seeing my little brother/sister too." And even "I want to be with my step-brothers and step-mom." I didn't plan any of this. I just put myself in God's hands, asking Him to bring me someone of His choosing, if that was His will. It's working out, though! Thanks, FAF, as always - Hoytster | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2157 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hoytster, I will for sure keep you and your son in my prayers. I don't know where you live but out here in Caliufornia it is very hard for parentasl rights to be terminated. Seems like the courts and the judges really go all out to keep the parent/child relationship strong. I will pray you get that sort of judge. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3585 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hoytster, God does work in amazing ways. I remember early in our marriage, Richard had to appear at a court-mandated "mediation" meeting regarding custody. About an hour into it, as I sat in the waiting room, I became overwhelmingly convinced I had to pray intsensely--in the manner of Joshua holding up Moses' arms while the armies fought. (Remember the story? When Moses dropped his arms, the enemy advanced. When he held them up to God, Israel advanced. Joshua finally held up his arms because he was too tired to continue unaided.) For 45 minutes I prayed, and I wasn't sure what I should be praying for. I finally realized I simply had to pray for truth to be known. It was actually tiring work, to pray intensely like that. Sometimes my mind wandered, and suddenly I would realize I had to pray. When it was all over Richard said the most remarkable thing happened. For the first time he sensed the mediator actually listening to him. He said periodically she would drift and seem to become confused, losing her tracking with what he was saying. Then she would suddenly be alert again, understanding Richard's words and making logical connections. That meeting marked a turning point in the future proceedings. When I told him what I had experienced in the waiting room during that time, we were both overwhelmed. I say this to give you courage as you face this hearing. God's desire is for truth to be known. Darkness hates the light, but light pierces the darkness and exposes evil. You can go into this impending hearing praying for God to glorify Himself and to help truth to be known. That is a prayer that honors Him, and He is faithful to glorify Himself and to set our own feet on a lighted path! Still praying for you, Colleen | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi, again! Thanks for your story, Susan -- wow, that sounds horrible, and illustrates the point too well -- and for the Sojourner magazine referral and the prayers. You are correct, it's difficult to terminate parental rights -- only, in NH anyway, a "mature" child (theoretically proof against his parent's manipulation) can set the custodial schedule, including deciding not to know a parent. In NH, a child might be "mature" at 12, it's more likely at 13, and assumed at 14. I like the way you put it, Belvalew -- "...we cared enough to overlook our own discomfort to protect them." Yes, dear child, please wait for sex, please refrain if you can -- but if you can't, make VERY sure that you don't catch STDs or find yourself inadvertantly a parent. It's not comfortable, but it's important. That's a great story, Colleen. I expect that the mediator also picked up on Richard's truthfulness and trustworthyness, as a follower of Christ. I hope some of that will shine from me, too. One of the things that brought Janet and I together is our faith. It's not that meaningful, really, but among the many things we have in common is that we both co-lead Sunday school classes. We're also not gamblers, because of our religious beliefs. I participated in my first SuperBowl pool 14 months ago, out of a motive to seem unweird among my colleagues -- and won it, and gave the $100 to my church. This past SuperBowl, we attended a Parents-without-Partners event, I bought 14 out of 100 squares in the 10x10 matrix, and all four prizes were won by Janet (twice) and and her two sons -- and Janet gave all of her winnings and most of her boys' to a charity that provides medical services to African children. Ach, off to Boy Scouts (I love being a Dad). Thanks again, Hoytster | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1324 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hoyster, I love seeing the way you treat these boys as your own. That gives me hope some day that maybe my own sons will have a man in their lives like that. They don't understand the legalities of paperwork and biology, they only know when they're alone at an event when every other kid has a dad/male-figure. That's very encouraging indeed. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 446 Registered: 1-2003  |
Susan, I've read Sojourners on and off for years. Just this past year I went to hear Jim Wallis the editor in chief speak and was very impressed. I can't remember the name but he has written a new book in the past year which deals with being a Christian and not a "slave" to one political party or the other. Weather you agree or not he is a fresh breath of air when it comes to being a Christ follower and taking responsibility out in the "world". In Christ, richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 447 Registered: 1-2003 |
Susan the name of the book is God's Politics and I've taken the liberty to post two reviews. "Amazon.com Secular liberals and religious conservatives will find things to both comfort and alarm them in Jim Wallis's God's Politics. That combination is actually reason enough to recommend the book in a time when the national political and theological discourse is dominated by blanket descriptions and shortsightedness. But Wallis, editor of Sojourners magazine, offers more than just a book that's hard to categorize. What Wallis sees as the true mission of Christianity--righting social ills, working for peace--is in tune with the values of liberals who so often run screaming from the idea of religion. Meanwhile, in his estimation, religious vocabulary is co-opted by conservatives who use it to polarize. Wallis proposes a new sort of politics, the name of which serves as the title of the book, wherein these disparities are reconciled and progressive causes are paired with spiritual guidance for the betterment of society. Wallis is at his most compelling when he puts this theory into action himself, letting his own beliefs guide him through stinging criticisms of the war in Iraq. In his view, George W. Bush's flaw lies in the assumption that the United States was an unprecedented force of goodness in a fight against enemies characterized as "evil." Indeed, although both the right and left are criticized here, the idea is that the liberals, if they would get religion, are the more redeemable lot. Wallis's line between religion and public policy may be drawn a little differently than most liberals might feel comfortable with, and while he pays some lip service to other faiths most of his prescription for America seems to come from the Bible. Still, for a party having just lost a presidential election where "moral issues" are said to have factored heavily, God's Politics is a sermon worth listening to. --John Moe From Bookmarks Magazine Godís Politics has struck a chord with contemporary Americans who, according to bestseller lists, are buying Wallisís book in droves. Regardless of how critics feel about the authorís religious beliefs (evangelical Christian) and political leanings (traditional on family values; progressive on issues like poverty and social justice), they are hard-pressed to argue with his central tenets: God belongs to no single political party and true faith transcends political categorization. Wallis writes that liberals and conservatives alike should work for a "new spiritual revival Ö that could transform our society." While at least one reviewer complains that Wallis glosses over the religious leftís failures, no one denies that he has produced a timely, thought-provoking book. Copyright © 2004 Phillips & Nelson Media, Inc." I feel we do have a place to have a Christ Centered influence in the political areana. Jim does not align himself with either party blindly. Richard | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1447 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard and others, I agree with Jim Wallis about not blindly following a particular political party. In fact, I am realizing more that our hope is not based on Republicans staying in power-(smiley). However, having said that, I have a very difficult time understanding how a true Christian can in good conscience vote for someone (like John Kerry or Bill Clinton)who support not only the murder of first trimester babies, even for reasons of birth control or inconvenience, and they both supported the barbaric practice of partial birth abortion. Now, Jim Wallis' justification for this was the fact that Bush slaughtered innocent people in Iraq! So, how can this justify voting for people who have no conscience about allowing the slaughter of the innocents in the womb? Abortion has been pushed by the feminazis so their lives will not be inconvenienced by unwanted children. Whatever happened to adoption? Jerry Falwell, while I don't agree with him on so much, at least makes good on his anti-abortion politics by running a ministry helpful to women with unwanted pregnancies, and puts up unwanted children. So, it isn't the entire Christian right that is being inconsistent. Abortion is really an insult to our Creator, who according to Psalm 139 "formed us in the womb". Abortion is a product of a "me" centered culture. Adventist hospitals have been allowing this to go on. At least RCC hospitals are consistent. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2171 Registered: 11-2002 |
Richard, Several years ago I went to a forum and heard Rev. Wallis speek. He was wonderful. I too don't agree with everything Rev. Wallis says but I guess if I was to lay side by side his positions and the positions taken by say Dobson, Fallwall or Robertson I'd side with Wallace on the majority of the issues. BTW, I am very activelly involved in our local branch of the Libertarian party. Politaclly it's the only party that makes sense worth more than a hill of beans. However, I have heard Ralph Nader sppek several times too and I like him too. Heck, I totally adore Pres. Bush and I even think Richard Nixon was a great president. I guess I'm just easy to please. However, I send scathing mail to Hillary Clinton (I think she's demon possessed.) and Ted Kennedy should still be serving a life sentyence in jail for drowning that lady in the lake and I will generally vote for whoever the National Rifel Association or the Farm Bureau recommends. I hope you all will still like me after reading what I just wrote. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 449 Registered: 1-2003 |
Susan, I had to smile when I read your post. I'm not a great fan of either Mr. Bush or Mr. Nixon, even though my birthday is the same as Mr. Nixon's. But then Mrs. Clinton and particularly Mr. Ted Kennedy or not either. I guess I'm an equal opportunity "disliker". In answer to your question, of coarse I'll still "like" you. Just because your "misguided" isn't a problem. (I'm joking) Susan didn't you live in Hawaii for awhile? If so are you still there. How are your sons doing. Your family is in my prayers often. Please send me email. In His hands, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1448 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, It looks like your birthday and my birthday both fall on the same day as Richard Nixon's. Also Marti and I were married in the same chapel at the Mission Inn that Pat and Richard were married in. (smiley face) Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 454 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, I used to live and had a small apartment at the Mission Inn years ago before it was converted to a hotel the last time. I knew all the secret little ways in and out of it and the many private patios and towers there. Years before I lived there i remember going there as a little kid and seeing the famous parrot out at the front entrance who was there for years. I even knew how to get down into the catacombs. ie: basement, I couldn't find any skeletons there hard as I looked. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2177 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Richard, I tried to send you an e-mail but apparently I don't know how to do that. I'll try again sometime but today I can't seem to make it work. Anyway, I mostly wanted you to know I keep your family and especially Annie in my prayers constantly. I hope she is doing o.k. | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard and Stan, Count me in on that birthdate. Gmatt | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1454 Registered: 3-2005 |
January 9 is a famous date for at least three of us on this forum! Stan | ||
| Ratthedd Registered user Username: Ratthedd Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2006 |
Wow. Just when I thought all my liberal views were at odds with the vast majority of members on this forum I find there are other libertarians here. I'm also pleasantly shocked to find others who hold the same feelings as I about abortion. Will wonders never cease? - Erik. | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2005 |
I say VOTE for Susan in 20007!!!!! Dawn |
