| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1153 Registered: 7-2003  |
Glenn, No, there is only one God, there are no others (see Part I of the study). This one God's personal name is YHWH. YHWH is the one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHWH is one (again see part I if you doubt this). The one being that is YHWH eternally exist as the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as I am now in the process of demonstrating from scripture. Here's the bottom line: Jesus is YHWH the only God.
Chris (Message edited by Chris on March 18, 2006) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1154 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part IV So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God (YHWH), there are no others. 2. The Father is God (YHWH) and the Son is God (YHWH). There is such a wealth of scripture that demonstrates that Jesus is God that I would like to continue on today with more comparison scriptures demonstrating that Jesus is YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
Who is all knowing?
Who resurrected Jesus?
Who forgives sin?
Who sent the Holy Spirit?
To whom shall every knee bow?
Who has the greatest name?
Whom are we to worship?
Who is the good Shepherd?
Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel?
Next time I will continue on with even more scripture that demonstrates that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the only true God YHWH. Chris | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Chris: So, in Luke 1:32, is it speaking about the SON giving himself the throne of his father David or is it talking about the FATHER giving his SON the throne of his father David? In Revelation 21:22, is it speaking about the SON and the LAMB being the temple of it or is it speaking about the FATHER and the LAMB being the temple of it? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1155 Registered: 7-2003 |
Glenn, In Luke 1:32 and Rev. 21:22 the "Lord God" is YHWH. There are eternal relationships between the Father, Son, and Spirit that can be expressed as subject/object distinctions, but the the Father, Son, and Spirit are one being, one God, YHWH. I will continue as the study progresses to present more and more and more evidence that Jesus is fully God. Here's the bottom line: Jesus is God, YHWH Chris | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Chris: In regard to the resurrection of the SON, by whose authority was it done - the Father's authority/power or the Son's authority/power? In regard to the forgiving of sins, by whose authority/power is this done - the Father's authority/power or the Son's authority/power? | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Chris: In regard to Luke 1:32 and Revelation 21:22, you avoided answering the question because you do not want to admit that, in Luke 1:32, the Father YHWH, the only true God, is giving his SON the throne of his father David, and you do not want to admit in Revelation 21:22, it is the Father YHWH, the only true God, and the LAMB, the Son of God, are the temple of it. So, am I correct in stating that, YOU BELIEVE, in the divine sense, there cannot be two separate beings - the FATHER and his SON? Then, the SON is only the son of his father David, not literally the Son of the only true God YHWH which he claimed to be and by which claim he was charged with blasphemy by the religious leaders who had the Roman government kill him? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 445 Registered: 8-2004  |
Grwaitemd wrote: "you avoided answering the question because you do not want to admit that," . . . Hmm. It sounds like you are attacking motives here. Hope that's not what you meant? Mary | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1156 Registered: 7-2003 |
Glenn, I gave you the correct answer to the question, the Lord God is YHWH. That is the right answer and the best answer. You can't make one of the persons of the Trinity the Lord God and exlude the rest of the members. That's not Bibilical, in fact such an assertion directly contradicts scripture. I know you don't accept this answer, but it is the correct one from a biblical perspective. Here's the thing, neither you nor I can hope to completely comprehend the the Being of the infinite God. All we can do is apprehend what God has told us in the Bible: 1) There is one God. 2) The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. 3) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. Now, we can react to these Biblical truths in one of two ways. We can: A) say, "My finite mind can't fully comprehend an infinite being, but I will bend the knee and accept what God has said about Himself. God is bigger than me, infinite, and not fully comprehensible by finite creatures, therefore he is worthy of my worship." OR B) in effect say, "I can't understand God therefore I will deny one or more of the things he says about Himself and create a god in my own image that I can understand. I prefer to worship an understandable god." I choose option A. In answer to your next to last question, no I do not believe there are two beings who are both gods of some sort (the Bible says there is only one God and there are no others). In answer to your last question, Jesus is the Son of David according to the flesh (His human nature) and the eternal Son of God according to His Being (His Divine nature). Some helpful scripture would include Rom. 1 and John 1. Jesus Christ is the one and only eternal God! Chris (Message edited by Chris on March 18, 2006) | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-1999 |
This is my understanding of the trinity. Just the basics--not extensive. The Trinity have "one" divine nature. Meaning they all have the following attributes: Sovereignty, Righteiousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability and Veracity. The Trinity--God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit--are separate and possess these attributes individually. (Matthew 28:19 identifies them as three "individuals") Each member of the trinity has a specific purpose in the eternal plan of God. Scriptures ascribes to each one a distinctive role not jointly shared by the others. (Very simplified) The Father is the "planner", the source of all things. The Son is "enactor" the agent the Father used to enact the plan. The Holy Spirit is the "revealer" and empowers the plan in the our life. | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Chris: You state: "You can't make one of the persons of the Trinity the Lord God and exclude the rest of the members. That's not biblical, in fact such an assertion directly contradicts scripture." The SON said: "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:1-3. Was Jesus Christ, the true and faithful witness, making one of the members of the trinity the Lord God and excluding any of the other members? "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we in him." 1 Corinthians 8:6. Was the author of this scripture making one of the members of the trinity the Lord God and excluding one of the other members? "One God and Father or all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Was the author of this scripture making one of the members of the trinity the Lord God and excluding one of the other members? "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5. Was the author of this scripture making one of the members of the trinity the Lord God and excluding one of the other members? "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in a light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasing. Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16. Was the author of this scripture making one of the members of the trinity the Lord God and excluding one of the other members? I hope you don't tell me that these scriptures are not part of the Bible or that you want to add to the verses something that is not there. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1157 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lori, it is important to understand that the Father, Son, and Spirit are not just one in attributes (although they are certainly that), they are one in Being, nature, essence and substance. When we talk about YHWH we are talking about one single Being, one single God that eternally exist as three persons. We use the term "persons" to denote the eternal relationships of love and fellowship that have always existed within the one God. Each of the persons of the Trinity is personally distinct in that there are true subject/object distinctions, e.g. the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, the Son communicates with the Father, the Father sends the Spirit, the Son sends the Spirit etc, but the are NOT "seperate". They are one in Being and distinct in person. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1158 Registered: 7-2003 |
Glenn, I believe you and I are both repeating ourselves at this point. I believe I have commented (or provided commentary) on all the texts you have mentioned either individually or collectively. I will again attempt to state what I believe your position is and what my position is. You seem to assume that in certain texts things that are true of YHWH such as He is the "only true God", "one God", "Father of all", etc. are being exclusively applied to the person of the Father only. You then go on to assume that that must mean that the Son does not have any of these attributes of YHWH. I believe you are making a mistake in attempting to limit these attributes to the person of the Father and I do not believe that is what is going on in these passages. These are all appropriate titles for YHWH as a Being and they are all appropriate titles for the Father as a person of YHWH. But here's the thing, the attributes of the one God YHWH are also applied to the Son in many other passages of scripture. That's how I know that the interpretation of these passages that you have given is incorrect, because it contradicts the rest of scripture. When we interpret scripture context is king. We examine context by asking questions like this: 1) What is the context of the words, phrases, or sentences within the immediate passage? 2) What is the context of the passage within the book? 3) What is the context of the book within the Testament it exists in? 4) What is the context of the Testament within the whole of scirpture? It's like concentric circles where we gradually work our way outwards. Only after we have asked all four of those questions have we truly considered context. Without context it would be very easy to come up with all sorts of misinterpretations and heresies. So in this case, if you start by misinterpreting the texts you mentioned to say that there are beings who are greater gods and beings who are lesser gods, as you work your way outwards in terms of contexts you will run into HUGE problems. You will find that your originial misinterpretation is at odds with the rest of scripture and is contradicted by the rest of scripture. That means the interpretation is wrong because the innerrant Word of God never contradicts itself. The texts above show a special relationship during the incarnation as well as an eternal ecomony of relationship and roles within the members of the Trinity. They do NOT and can NOT show a being as a greater god and a being as a lesser god. I know this because I know that as we work our way outward through the concentric circles of context we find that the inerrant Word of God teaches: 1) There is only one God, there are no others. 2) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God. 3) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. Tomorrow I will continue to present scripture that demonstrates that Jesus is the one God YHWH. Chris | ||
| Grwaitemd Registered user Username: Grwaitemd Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dear Chris: I agree that we did not need to repeat ourselves. Lets makes it simple: Who was the God that Jesus Christ worshiped? That is the God who I worship. The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin and directs me to Jesus Christ, the only mediator between me and the Father. Jesus Christ then directs me to the Father, the only true God. The Holy Spirit does not direct me to worship him as God the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 209 Registered: 11-2005 |
Chris -- we are going to depend on you to make sure we clearly understand the issues, and how to support them from the Bible. Have you seen what the new Adult Sabbath School Quarterlies are discussing? http://absg.adventist.org/Scope.htm The second quarter is "The Holy Spirit" and the third Quarter is "The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment"! As you and I both know, the Gospel and an 1844 Investigative Judgement are not compatible. This is certainly an interesting opportunity for those of us who view the Adventist Church as a mission field to openly discuss the real issues. I notice in the new Quarterly about the Holy Spirit the statement on page 7 (Sunday, March 26) that "The second part of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church reads, in part: "There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons." -- Seventh-day Adventists Believe ... (2005 ed.), p. 23. In other words, Adventists -- along with millions of Christians -- believe in the triune nature of God; that is, there is one God (Deut 6:4) who exists as three Persons. While that concept itself might not be simple, the biblical evidence for this truth is pwerful and compelling. That we can't fully understand something, particularly something about the very nature of God Himself, is hardly reason to reject it (Job 11:7, 1 Cor. 13:12). These next two quarters cover subjects that are so central to our new understanding as former Adventists, that I think it would be worthwhile to have a separate place on this forum where we specifically discuss point-by-point the subject material that is covered in each lesson for the next two quarters. I don't see how we can afford to leave ourselves unprepared -- not that Adventism has the truth. That is not the point at all. The point is that this is an opportunity that we will not soon have again. All of us know Adventists, in some cases even spouses. My wife, for example, is very interested in seeing how I respond to this latest material. She reminds me that the Seventh-day Adventist Church of today is not the one that I grew up with -- that our local Seventh-day Adventist Churche congregations are relevant and responsive to change. Many of my Adventist friends don't believe in Ellen White and her theology, even attend BSF classes, hold leading church positions, and are very contemporay in the music they play in today's worship services, etc. They feel very positive about the changes that they see taking place at the local church level, as well as the evangelical interaction with other non-SDA churches in the area. The Adventist Church, at all levels, is trying very hard to make it appear like we really don't have any valid complaints anymore. (In the case of the Gospel and 1844, I can't imagine how they will make it through that one. I imagine their reasoning is that the best defense is a good offense.) To our relatives who are studying these lessons that is the way it will appear. I believe God has provided this as a golden opportunity to have "common ground" with our Adventist relatives -- to open their eyes to the "rest of the story", and discuss these subjects in a way with them that would never otherwise occur. These lessons appear to be leading them to the Bible. With the Holy Spirit's help, we must complete the educational process. It is pointless for us to say that at sometime in the past James White and others taught that the Trinity was a Catholic invention. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is taking the offensive here in trying to reinvent itself as being completely Biblical. The natural response of our relatives and loved ones will be to feel very good about how the Seventh-day Adventist Church of 2006 is boldly addressing these subjects. It will look like we are the ones who are operating on outdated information from the past. Let us approach this opportunity with confidence, and hold unswervingly to the hope we profess. Now is the time to begin preparing so that we will not be found wanting when our Adventist friends and relatives begin to study these lessons. And our participation must occur in step with the material that is being presented to our loved ones. A week late is too late. It would be interesting for us to prepare a supplement to these next two quarters lessons that assists inquiring minds in discovering the full truth. I see the lessons for each week of this next quarter are not online yet at http://absg.adventist.org/Teachers.htm but they should be soon. If we remain silent, in the face of so great an opportunity, our Adventist friends and relatives who are receptive to what we have to say will be convinced from the lessons that we simply don't know what we are talking about, and that we are out of touch with the Seventh-day Adventist Church of 2006. How can we best leverage this opportunity? Gilbert | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 447 Registered: 7-2000 |
You make a good point, Gilbert. However, how do you dialogue with folks who don't see the words of the Bible as inspired and inerrant---so they are free to play fast and loose with Scripture? How do you dialogue with folks who have a hermaneutic so messed up that they see both the Old and New Testament as authoritative? How can you dialogue with folks when the very defintions of common, Christian terms have been redefined? Still, it is good to keep up on the latest tactics of the SDA church... | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2006 |
May I make a suggestion, the first thing is effective prayer. For over a year my prayer for all SDA's have been a prayer based on the text of Eph 1v17-18. It gos like this, Father, I pray that you give the SDA's a spirit of wisdon and revelation so that they know you better and that the eyes of their heart may be enlightened that they know the hope to which you have called them. I have faith our Lord will answer this prayer because it is his will for us to know him. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1159 Registered: 7-2003 |
Glenn, you asked "Who was the God that Jesus Christ worshiped?" I think the basis of the question is Arian at its very core and needs to be reexamined. Worship is an act of adoration from a creature to his creator. It is the creature's duty and honor to give worship to the creator. Jesus is not a creature (created). Jesus is the Eternal Creator Himself. Jesus is God and accepts worship from His creatures.
As Christians we worship YHWH, the one God that eternally exists as Father, Son, and Spirit. That means we worship the Father, we worship the Son, and we worship the Spirit. Although the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct, they are equally God and are indivisible in Being, nature, essence, and substance. The persons of the Trinity are one being. So in this sense it can be said that you can't give worship to the Father and exclude the Son and the Spirit. You can't worship the Son and exclude the Father and Spirit. You can't worship the Spirit and exclude the Father and Son. We worship one God that eteranally exists as Father, Son, and Spirit. Glenn, if you do not believe that Jesus is worthy of your worship, then you are worshipping a different god then the God of the Bible. This is very serious indeed because there is only one true God, YHWH, who is eternally the Father, Son, and Spirit. All other so-called gods are either demons or gods of our own making made in our own image. A false god cannot save. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1160 Registered: 7-2003 |
Gilbert, interesting observations and thoughts. I didn't know that the Trinity is the topic of the up coming SS quarterly. On the surface, the Trinitarian statement you quoted sounds theologically correct. I guess the proof in the pudding will be how it is taught and explained in SS classes around the world. Given the confusion I'm seeing among many current and former SDAs on the Trinity (and that I experienced as well) I question whether the Trinity will be clearly presented in SDA SS classes. However, I pray that this will be an opportunity for the SDA organization to repent of past heresies and begin to teach it's members the truth about the Triune God. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1161 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part V So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God (YHWH), there are no others. 2. The Father is God (YHWH) and the Son is God (YHWH). I know this may be getting almost tedious at this point, but I think it is crucial to understand that Jesus is the God of both Testaments. Jesus is YHWH, the only true God. There is so much scripture demonstrating this that I am having to present it in small chunks over several days, but I would rather have too much scripture than too little. We are truly blessed with such a wealth of scripture demonstrating that Jesus is God. Today we will finish the comparison scriptures demonstrating that Jesus is YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Some of these scriptures are among the most convicting in the series so far, in my opinion (check out the first three and the very last one especially). Who is "Lord of Lords?"
To whom shall every knee bow?
Who alone is Holy?
Whose blood cleanses us?
The world was created for whom?
Colossians 1:16 (NASB) 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesóall things have been created through Him and for Him.} Who is above all?
Who is forever the same?
Who is our light?
Who is the way or path?
Who gives us rest?
Who gives eternal life?
We are the bride of whom?
Who tests the heart and mind?
For this last one you'll notice that the first text clearly states that the LORD (YHWH in Hebrew) is the righteous branch of David. The second text is regarded by Jews and Christians alike to be messianic in it's context. It says that the coming Messiah is the the righteouss Branch of David. Therefore the Messiah (Jesus) is YHWH.
Next time we will be exploring explicit biblical statements showing that Jesus Christ is God. Chris | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2006 |
Gilbert, I really like your idea: "These next two quarters cover subjects that are so central to our new understanding as former Adventists, that I think it would be worthwhile to have a separate place on this forum where we specifically discuss point-by-point the subject material that is covered in each lesson for the next two quarters." Learning that the Sabbath School Quaterly is prsenting the IJ with the SDA Gospel troubles me deeply for my SDA family. Yesterday, my daughters visited with my sister, bil and cousins, getting bombarded with SDA 'stuff' (not going to church, though). My oldest held out, being taught all her life the true Gospel (and Trinity). I still must do 'damage control' for my youngest, so that she doesn't get confused. My 22 y/o niece is, mostly, the 'missionary' to us. She wanted my oldest to watch an 'End Times' video. My girl refused, saying she didn't believe in all that. It brought it all up fresh for me. Your post is timely. I am sure we will receive emails from my niece, based on the SS lessons. I, personally, would benefit from some ideas for us to send emails back. Loving, Gospel, scriptural emails; posts on an on-going basis, while these lessons continue to decieve my loved ones. Thank you, Chris, for this Trinity study. I appreciate all the time, thought, scripture and writing you have put into this for us and our understandings. God bless you. In prayer for our SDA families~ Cathy |
