| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006  |
Hello, everyone. I recently joined this forum, but have not yet done any posting, so I'd like to introduce myself. I was raised Adventist, would have been fourth generation SDA if I had ever officially joined the church (I did not). I went to work at an Adventist hospital right after high school, and considered myself an SDA, even though I had never been baptized or joined the church. I found the SDA church, and religion in general, to be a very unpleasant experience from as far back as I could remember, and I tended to question certain "truths" (although I learned never to voice such opinions!), and also found it very difficult to "have faith and believe" as everyone else seemed to. Still, I continued to faithfully attend church and follow all the rules for several years after I was out on my own, the result, no doubt of all that intense SDA indoctrination of "don't question, and don't think for yourself." I did however, eventually leave it all behind, stopped attending church, and eventually became a ranting, raving, anti-religious agnostic. Tried being an atheist, but this seemed as rigid and irrational a position as any religion that says "our way is the only way, our truth is the only truth." My position for many years was, WE CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW ANYTHING FOR SURE--you can't be any more agnostic than that! My quest for knowledge led me to study religions and philosophies of all kinds, to try to determine just what people believe and why. This served to re-inforce my sense that, in a world as diverse as ours, there can't possibly be "one true way" that all people should adhere to. I have read many of the posts on this forum and I can feel the pain of so many of the people, pain that I experienced over the years as I was struggling to de-program myself. It seems that most people posting here are just now leaving Adventism, and I'm wondering, are there any discussions available for a person like me, who has been out of the church for many years, a person who is no longer an evangelical Christian, or really any kind of Christian at all? I recently began attending a metaphysical, New Thought (NOT New Age) church that I like very much, and it has helped me in ways that I could never have imagined back in my fundamentalist, "trying-so-hard-to-be-a-Christian" days. Are there any people here who have taken that route, rather than the convential Christion one? Or could someone perhaps direct me to a different website that might be more suited to me? I wish I could have found a web site like this one years ago when I was struggling on my own, thinking I was all alone in my search. However, thankfully, I have been able to survive that struggle and have finally found a spiritual home that is well suited to me. I am reminded of an old saying, "When the student is ready....the teacher will appear." And so, when I was ready, I found myself drawn to the right church, the right books, the most wonderful and helpful and freeing way of life I could have ever imagined. I am so glad to see all these wonderful folks here, helping each other through the difficulties of finding their own way. It is not easy leaving behind something that one has been so attached to, even when it is obvious that it is not fulfilling their needs or answering the questions they so desparately need answered. I remember my own struggle as if it all happened yesterday, but I am happy to say that I can now truly enjoy my ham sandwiches and "Sabbath-breaking" entirely guilt free! My best wishes to you all as you seek, and journey on your chosen paths. Joyce Williams | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2153 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Joyce, It is good hearing from you. I am 55 years old and I have known from age 11 and in 5th grade at a SDA school that I would not be SDA when I grew up. The problem though is even though I have had the committment to real Chjristianity since a young child I am still getting let know by SDA loved ones how way off the true path I am. I would think they'd have accepted my path by now but they are sure I'm headed for the lake of fire and have a great zeal to keep me out of that lake! I haven't a clue what kind of church it is you are speeking of when you speek of a metaphysical new thought church but to me it sounds really far out. Having said that I guess some of us do go to some far out groups as I totally can get into going to the Hare Krishna gatherings. At the HK gatherings I attend all the HK's know I am Christian and they accept it and we boogie and have a good time and I listen to the HK greu rant about whatever he wants to rant about at that moment, usually about karma is going to get you if you be bad or selffish, that sort of mumbo-gumbo. I would though like to urge you to open your heart to the leadings of the Holy Spirit and attend some more real Christian fellowships. Yeah, the cultic hold on SDA's is tremendous, many of us on here have our family horror stories. Again, a hearty welcome. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3578 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dear Joyce, welcome to the forum! Thank you for sharing your story right up front with us! I suspect there are many here who will identify with your long struggle to find peace. I think one of the commonalities many of us here share is the amazement of finding that Christianity really didn't make sense until we stopped TRYING to be Christians. The sticking point for so many is two-fold: first, that Jesus has, in a singular act of atonement, opened a literal way for humans to be connected with Godóand He alone was qualified to do this atonement. Second, He is not distant; he personally draws near to us and invites us to know Him. It is terrifying, at first, to consider the possibility of giving up our control and "logic" and risking putting Him to the test. After all, if His claims are true, the burden of proof is on Himónot on usóto make them real to us. What we have found is that He is faithful. Knowing Jesus is not embracing an idea or a belief structure. We really experience Himóbut this experience isn't the result of trying to make things make sense. It really feels like submitting to One more powerful and merciful than I. It involves being willing to know whether I believe truth or not. It involves being will to risk the experiment of asking Him to reveal Himself to me in a way I will understandóand to be willing to accept whatever evidcence He gives. I'm sure others will have other comments and observations as well. Just know that we are glad to make your acquaintance, and I do not believe your being here is an accident of fate. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2399 Registered: 3-2004  |
Joyce, Welcome to FAF. I am glad you made youself known. I will say that getting to know Jesus, trusting Him is a very enlightening,interesting experience. It can be terrifying because He does not give a day by day lay out of what He wants me to do, but I trust him because of things He has done for me and my loved ones in the past. He has taken care of me in ways I would never have thought of myself. Welcome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 629 Registered: 4-2000  |
Joyce, A hearty WELCOME to our conversation cafe. We are delighted that you have joined our discussions. My wife and I left Adventism officially in 2000 after being devout members for over forty years. Admittedly, some of us are slow learners. However, God knows the precise moment to call us out of deception. I really don't think we were ready at an earlier time. Sitting before my computer monitor in the mid-1990s, during a typical Saturday afternoon, I unintentionally started reading a sermon outline entitled, "Sabbath in Christ" by Dr. Richard Fredericks. Without my even finishing to read the sermon outline, God spoke to my heart with the awesome truth that Jesus is indeed our True Sabbath Rest. I jumped up from my desk and ran excitedly upstairs to tell my wife that Jesus is the reality of the festal Sabbath shadow (Col 2:16-17). Amazingly, we both agreed. We have never been the same since that day when we accepted Jesus as our True Sabbath Rest. Praise God! In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2006 |
Welcome to the forum Joyce, let me tell you that the problem of the human race only have an answer, Jesus Christ. It is only in Him that we can find peace and the pardon of our sins, there is not a new way (new thougt), but an old way (the only way), Christ. | ||
| Robby Registered user Username: Robby Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
Joyce, Though I joined this forum several weeks ago, this is my first post, so hi to all of you. I find the conversations here to be very real and thoughtful. Thank all of you for that. I will post my story later, but your post touched my heart Joyce, since we share some things in common. I'm a 4th generation SDA also, and the son of a well-known SDA minister. When I left the church (shortly after academy), I ran and ran from Him. God was in the rear view mirror, let me assure you! In fact I sometimes proclaimed myself an atheist. But he never stopped knocking, and at age 55 I found a wonderful Savior, whose grace I had never experienced. And I am also amazed at the joy that is to found in a relationship with Jesus. It sound like you are still a "seeker" Joyce, and from personal experience I suggest that you find a church (maybe you already have) that teaches the bible and worships the God of grace. Our God sent his Son to die just for you and I. WOW Itís not about legalism or personal perfection like I once was taught. Itís about love and surrender, sweet surrender. I now serve Him because I want to. Thanks for your testimony Joyce. I look forward to being a part of this virtual community, and I hope you stick around too. In His Grace, Robby | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2158 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Robby, It's good hearing from you. We are the same age. I am looking forward to heaering more of your story. Is your dad still a SDA minister or has be by now retired? | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear Joyce and Robby, No matter what, the Spirit Jesus promised to leave us with is quite capable of turning our wandering paths to His Heart. His Spirit is the most powerful force I've ever experienced other than my own ability to decompensate and loose it. I pray the Spirit show Himself to you, Jesus Spirit, and that you become whole in Him. Lisa B-D | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3584 Registered: 12-2003 |
Robby, welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing your story, and we are truly glad you're with us. (Hope you haven't disappeared, Joyce!) Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 |
No, Colleen, I haven't disappeared. I am enjoying reading all the responses to my post, and thank everyone for their kindness. I am still looking for people to correspond with who have followed a path similar to mine. I am no longer interested in traditional Christianity, but I know I will always be a 'seeker' as Robby suggested. Seeking and learning and growing have always brought me my greatest fulfillment in life. And I know that no matter where I go, there will always be more to learn. I have found a church that speaks to me, and has helped me in many ways, not the least of which is experiencing for the first time ever, a sense of really belonging to a spiritual community where I am accepted just as I am, and regardless of my beliefs or opinions. This is very freeing after all the years of the restrictive SDA atmosphere. I find myself sitting there in church thinking to myself: "Wow! This is sure not my father's church!!" I know that most of the posts I've read seem to indicate that the people here are still pretty much evangelical christians, except without the "peculiarly" unique Adventist teachings. I was wondering, are there any who have chosen to move outside that arena, and would care to share their ideas with me? I guess I'm considered a little "far out" because I developed my ideas about "god" and "spiritual" matters outside of any church at all, by years and years of reading and pondering and exploring on my own. I find that each day, Spirit/God is eager to bring us new enlightment, if only we can let ourselves be open to it. That's what I'm trying to do now. For many years I did not trust God one iota, or want to be connected. But finding a church that teaches that God is about love and acceptance... that makes a big difference. Joyce | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2006 |
Welcome Joyce, I to am new here and have not shared my history with everyone yet and I think this is a good oppertunity to do so. I was born again in 1980. The churchs I went to ( I dont like lables but they do give a form of identity )were carismatic, spiritfilled churches and I was grounded in sound bible teachings for years. I was also tought that yes you can hear the voise of the HolY Spirit and be lead by him . But another spirit of control through the leadership got into the church. I left and joined a evangelical church, good church, but they got into the spiritual warfare movement in the late 80's and after a few years their teaching got off. This and , I think, the fixed repotitision of years of "church" kind of caused a burn out effect in me. I more or less stoped going to church for years. In 1996 I moved to Louisville, Ky. and joined a big, I mean 1000 x 2 servives a Sunday big church. Good fellowship but they didnt feed the flock from the pullput and there was another spirit there that entered through some bad teachings,the Holy Spirit Showed me. So I church hopped for awile and moved back to Idaho. Did more hopping. I became invalved with SDA's may be two years ago, my neighbors are SDA. I fellowshiped with them more so as a neighbor with bible studies ( Friday Sabbath stuff) and some church goings with pot lucks. But I knew there was another spirit on the SDA church and I wouldnt dis-fellowship myself because they are truly Christians. Joyce I believe our Lord Jesus has lead us both here for fellowship, comfort, wisdom, and insite as we share the truth of our Lord Jesus. If I may add a bit of Pauls wisdom that I have learned over the years its this , the Bible is the only ancher of truth and be carefull not to go beyond what is Written. Praying for all of you...... BRIX | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3592 Registered: 12-2003 |
Brix, thank you for sharing your story with us. I am continually amazed at how God leads us distinctly and individually. He doesn't have a "blueprint" for us...! But He does have a certain consistency. He reveals Himself to us, and further, He reveals His will and the functioning of reality through the Scriptures. Without the Scriptures, we would have no ground of faith. When a person once decides to accept Scriptures as the true, reliable, inerrant Word of God, the amazing thing is that He really does confirm Himself through His Spirit as we study. Being born of the Spirit is not just a theory or a form of self-hypnosis or delusion. It's a real change of identity. We really can know Him! Nonetheless, we are happy you've come here, Joyce! We do pray that you will find the bottom line answers to your questionsóanswers that will not become confusing or stiltifying but answers that will bring you richness of joy and peace and life! Colleen | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006 |
Joyce what teach your church about the way of salvation, the bible, the hell, sin, etc. Finaly are you a borne again christian?. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2168 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joyce, Have you attended any Society of Friends/Quaker meetings? I am guessing you might gain enlightenment at their meetings. Although I am a committed Christian I do ferequently like to attend Hare Krishna gatherings. Does that count with you? Frankly I don't get anything of spiritual value from the HK gatherings. I just like to go and boogie with them. And the vegetarian feast after the gathering is wonderful, the very best tasting food I'be ever tasted as well as being of all good, wholesome ingredients. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2006 |
Joyce, I have been where you are, in many areas. I have experienced what you described. I have heart-searched, in the past, exactly what you say you are searching for. I, like several here, have been out of Adventism for decades, although with all kinds of questions until I found genuine spirituality and spiritual rest in Christ, which did not depend upon myself, but HIS love and acceptence, alone. Also, a heart-rest, heart-home, mental, emotional, which goes on into the physical, as well; each moment, every day, as any rest, love, gracing from God is meant to, for all of our entire being. I found a communion with the Spirit of Christ, which transcends spirit guides and emptying my own mind. Like C.S. Lewis, I came to 'pray' like I breath because God is so near; Christ in me and I within him. His printed words became alive and transformed. I cannot explain it, except that it was a transcendant miracle of God. My mind began to understand spirtuality, at last, after seeking God through Shinto, New Age ('Keepers of the Flame'), Wicca, Hindu 'Serpent Power'(Kundalini) and other things; some of them 'Christian'. I, too, found in much of 'Mainstream Christianity' the very same (as you put it) "trying-so-hard-to-be-a-Christian" as Adventism--only in different ways and terminology-- for years. But the true teachings of Christianity have no such thing in them; a system of works. It is the only belief system, ever, which does not. While all other belief systems have a system of works (we must do something to get better, higher, get to a better place, please God, etc..) in them, I have learned through expereince and studies. We do not have to try, try, try. God graced us. Is gracing us. In more ways and means then we can possibly imagine, yet, we are told of some of the most stunning acts of mercy he ever did for us. I am not an 'Evangelical Christian' as it would be defined in Mainstream Christianity, these days, and others (not all) on this forum are not, either (if I dare to speak for others). I think we would be more 'Reformed Theology' oriented Christians, which goes back to the ancient spirituality and teachings; and, if you will, even mysticism in the sacraments. It retains the mystical mysteries of God and profound loving grace, which as limited humans, we will never completely wrap up in logic, rational reasoning and understadning; but God does completely wrap us up in mercy, grace, love and acceptence, through his Holy Spiirt. After years, of searching, this is what I learned of and found because God led me there. Perhaps, it is because I have been prone to a mystical nature, that I find this so deeply, deeply beautiful, merciful and full of loving grace to me in Reformed Theology. After saying that about RT, I am really *just* a Christian, who reads alot, that's all. Not claiming any denomination, leader nor group as The One. My God is 'above' me--for he is God and Spirit--supernatural, beyond my fallible humanity. And I am his beloved no matter what. So are you because he so loved you to the death, through Jesus Christ. On this forumn, I have learned even more of this beauty in the Spirit and person of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. And loving acceptence and prayers within a family of God, as well; even though we do not all agree about everything, all the time. That's ok. We don't have to be all alike here, like puppets--like in Adventism. We are all growing and learning. Joyce, please stay and read more. No one is going to try to make you a 'better Christian' like SDA's do. That's not our job. We are not God. This place helped me much, when I lurked. Anyone can ask any question and receive respect, prayer and acceptence. Anyone can tell their similar experiences in Adventism and find that we all share in kind, to some degree. I've never seen anyone pushed away here, no matter what. Heart-felt, with prayers for your search, Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 451 Registered: 1-2003  |
Carol, I was blessed so much by your testimony. THANKS ! ! richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 |
Okay, I will take the plunge here and try to answer some questions that have been asked of me about the church I am attending now. I belong to a Unity church. The Unity movement falls under the umbrella of "New Thought", one of several metaphysical groups that resulted from a movement that started back in the mid to late 1800s. (Yes, during that religious fervor that also produced E.G.White and the SDA movement!) The way I understand and explain "metaphysical" for myself is that it is about prayer and meditation, and this is applicable and works in all areas of life because we ARE spiritual beings. Unity does not teach Bible "literalism", but their teachings ARE centered around Jesus and the Bible. In fact Jesus is referred to as our "elder brother and wayshower," and it is often stated that, "At Unity we don't teach the religion ABOUT Jesus, we teach the religion OF Jesus." Unity is definitely a Christian denomination, although I would imagine that there would be a lot of more conservative Christians who would not agree with that, simply because their definition of "christian" would differ. The Unity movement is not based on a doctrine of "original sin" and a need for "salvation." It is based on the teachings of Jesus as a way to experience a better life on earth, as well as a way to grow spiritually. So in that regard, I know many fundamentalists would disagree. But, since the "original sin" and "vicarious atonement" were two concepts that troubled me most in traditional christianity, this is not an issue to me personally. Unity also does not teach that their way is "the only way." To quote what our spiritual leader says every Sunday when she welcomes any visitors: "In Unity we believe that there are many paths to God..." This, I had already decided for myself before I encountered Unity teachings, and was a welcome change. Here are the five main Unity principles as stated by my particular church. 1. God is absolute GOOD, everywhere present. 2. Human beings have a spark of DIVINITY within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are also inherently good. 3. Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their THINKING. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. 4. PRAYER and MEDITATION are methods of communion between God and Humankind. Through prayer, we lift our awareness to God and TALK from our heart to God. In the Silence of meditation, we experience our ONENESS with God in silence and LISTEN to God through ideas, images and intuition we receive. Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing, prosperity, and everything good. 5. Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also LIVE the truth he or she knows. You can find a slightly differently stated version of these five Unity Principles at the main Unity web site http://www.unityonline.org/discover_faq.htm, along with more in-depth explanation of Unity teachings... if you're interested. Or, if anyone would like to know why I enjoy MY church so much, and why we think our Spiritual Leader, Sue Baggett is so dynamic and awesome, just go to our web site http://christchurchunity.org/ and listen to a couple of her talks. It will definitely blow your Adventist socks off once and for all! Rest assured that I am NOT implying that Unity is "THE one and only TRUTH", or that it is for everyone. I know that it would not appeal to many people. But for me, it was just what I needed at the time I needed it. Many of the things I hear every Sunday are concepts that I had already formed in my own mind and it is a much-needed validation of where my thinking had already come to. Also, it is so powerfully POSITIVE in its outlook, something I have very much needed after growing up with the negative, "you-are-so-bad-and-unworthy" indoctrination that I received growing up SDA. I hope I haven't shocked or offended anyone too much, and I hope that I have answered some of the questions that have been asked. As you can see, I am very enthusiastic about my new way of life and my new spiritual family! It works for me. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3613 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, I am familiar with the Unity church. In fact, I have a cousinóthe son of an SDA pastorówho belongs to a Unity church. It is not (for the sake of those who might not know) the same as the Unitarian church. I would like to ask you on what source the Unity church bases its beliefs. While the Unity church says they teach the religion OF Jesus and use His teachings as the basis for living a satisfying life, my question would be on what basis do they select the portions of Jesus' teachings that they espouse, and on what basis do they reject (or perhaps simply ignore) the rest of the New Testament? One of the biggest problems I have with Unity is foundational: on whose authority do we decide these things are what "work"? In fact, this is the very same problem I have with Adventism: who or what is the bottom line authority? As long as the bottom line is human, then the belief is simply a human attempt to achieve a less painful life. It is not necessarily based on fact or truth or any testable reality. The Bible, however, is something we have to take seriously before we dismiss it. Because it claims to be the Word of God (unlike the teachings of many other religions), it is either a great deception, or it is the singular concrete source of truth. Because it states not only what it claims to be God's evaluation of humanity (innately under the curse of sin since Adam) but also God's provision (free salvation for all who will accept the sacrifice of Jesus on their behalf), we have to takes its claims seriously before dismissing them. As Cathy stated above, Biblical Christianity is the only religion in the world that does not demand behavior from us in order for us to be righteous. Peace, healing, and intimacy with God are real, but they are not arrived at by getting our behavior in line with Jesus' behavior. Peace, healing, and intimacy are the result of allowing God to be God. There is no inspired or intrinsic evidence that humans have a Christ Spark within them. True, humanity is created by Godóinspiration (the Bible) as well as deduction supports this fact. True, the Bible does say we were created in the image of God. But the same Bible that said we were created in the image of God also shows that humanity lost its original perfection with the onset of sin. There would have been no need for Jesus if His only function were to demonstrate a good life. We needed to have our spirits reborn. Jesus is a singularity because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He alone was born with a "living spirit". It is the gift of a "living spirit" that Jesus' death made possible. By paying for humanity's sin, he opened a way for us no longer to be separated from God. The miracle of Pentecostóthe Holy Spirit indwelling those who believed in Jesusóis the miracle He gives every Christ-follower. When we believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit literally indwells us. This reality is the reason so many of us speak so definitely about Jesus being "the only way". When the Holy Spirit indwells us, we are changed. We have new power, a new positionóin Christ instead of in Adamónew potentialóour tastes begin to change, our reactions begin to changeóand not because we're imitating Jesus. They change because we have literally been united with God, and He love us and softens us , and we grow in love for Him. Adventism taught us that we were inherently "bad". Many of us had parents and teachers and pastors who cruelly manipulated us into believing we were hopeless and unlikely ever to achieve the righteous standard of God. What Adventism never understood was this miracle of the new birth. It's the same misunderstanding that other "religions" also haveóincluding Unity, I believe. We all know that we are deeply flawed. I understand that Unity offers a way for people to climb out of the sentence of hopelessness many grew up with. It reassures that humans are not evil, that they have a divine spark within, that they can learn to trust themselves and like themselves and emulate Jesus. The problem is that REALITY is (and our life experience really does confirm) that we are not essentially divine inside. We are hopelessly flawed. Unity offers people, in spite of their deep knowledge of their own flaws, a way to see themselves as worthy. Biblical Christianity, on the other hand, offers a rescue. Through no good efforts of our own, Jesus comes to us with the message of forgiveness. He assures us that He knows we are deeply flawedóbut that He Himself is taking responsibility for that brokenness. He will personally take the rap for usóHe died our death. In exchange, if we surrender our desires to achieve a "workable" life to Him, He will clothe us in HimóHis righteousness. He will count us worthy In Him. Behavior is not related to being holy. It is the effect of being counted righteous and being brought to life by the literal indwelling of God Himself. Christianity's claims are bold and startlingóand they give us humans no place to boast or to achieve. Christianity changes usówe do not change ourselves. I requires surrenderóa scary risk after growing up in repressive or cruel homes! But this surrender is the only way to lasting peace. I just repeat my challenge from a previous threadóask God to reveal the truth about Himself to you, and pick up a Bible, as an experiement, reading only it for a month, and ask God to teach you through its words if He is who He claims to be. With love and prayers, Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1172 Registered: 7-2003  |
Joyce, welcome to FAF! You mentioned that your Unitarian congregation teaches "the religion of Jesus". How have you determined what "the religion of Jesus" is? Is there any reliable source that records Jesus's spiritual beliefs? Chris |
