| Author | Message | ||
| Arno Registered user Username: Arno Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 |
I'm also trying to get moving onto this list since I've been registered yesterday, but it does seem that some of us experience initial hickups in trying to do so  I'm an ex-SDA who attended church school as well as College. Today I guess the term *heathen* or *pagan* describe me better. For a long time I have not been thinking of my earlier connection with SDA, but lately the whole unfortunate situation returned in my consciousness with a vengeance. I feel dissappointed, let-down, angry, about it all. When I reflect on the way an manner I've became a member of the SDA-church in my early teens (flowerpower years, early '70s)as well as the terrible price I've payed on a very personal level to be able to become a member of the *True* church, I end up with anger, confusion, and depression. Today I no more believe the way I believed back then. I've lost all faith in the so-called *god-breathed* account of the Hebrew and Xtian bible. I do not even know whether Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, let alone being God. When I think about the *God* of the *bible*, I do not enjoy pleasant thoughts. At times when I DO try to think about *HIM*, I experience revulsion at all the strange stories connected with *Him*. Please understand that I'm not here to try and break down anyone's faith or relationship with the God of the Bible. I'm here because I'm so terribly confused and unhappy and depressed about the whole unfortunate situation. I DO believe unflinchingly in *a* or *the* Prime Mover. Actually, I KNOW there have to be of necessity a First Cause. But whether the biblical God fits that bill ... well, I just do not know ... but I'm at that point of my life-journey that I'm prepared to try anything to get rid of this terrible hurtfull vacuum and loneliness. Colleen, I appreciate your off-list suggestion of yesterday for me to start with Galations and move on to the Gospel according to John. I wish I could ... But, after wondering about this mental block I experience when trying to pick up my old dusty bible I realize there is a problem in doing that. I somehow, have to proof to myself or being proved by *someone* re. the veracity of the xtian bible, and that it IS the one and only revelation through which a person can come to know the Creator. So, I guess, before I can start *reading the Bible*, I need to go back to some first principles ... and I DO NOT KNOW HOW! Oh, it is all so terribly confusing and unhappy. WHO can help me?! In Unhappiness and Confusion (but HAPPY somehow to have joined this list) Arno du Toit | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2170 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arno, welcome. I hope you can get some help with your concerns on here. I hope you are not in a depression state and if that is the case please seek medical attention. I have my ups and downs but mostly I just think God wants me to have a good time. There is so much to enjoy that is totally clean-cut and virtureous. Thomas, I do believe your rendition about the angels. Having said that I want to point out that in the Bible are numerous places where the angels appear in the form of a person and they are truly angels. The story that comes to mind is when the hungry guys come to someones door and the family has them in for dinner. They were angels. I know a lady who has since passed away who was a very devoted Christian. She got into a very serious auto accident and even the parametics and emergency crew were amazed that she didn't die. After she could get the attention of the doctor at the hospital she told the doctor she wanted the name of the nice doctor who just happened to be traveling past when she had the car wreck because he had held her hand in the amballance all the way to the hospital and had prayed with her. AShe described him to a "T". The staff assurred her there weas no doctor in the amballance with her. However, her husband had even been conforted by the man and he was not Christian and his recolection was the exact as hers. It was an angel most everyone who knows her believes this. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2004 |
Welcome Freeindeed and Thomas, As I clicked onto this thread this morning I knew it was going to be a great day. Two new brothers is a joyous occasion. I am so glad you have felt comfortable enough to join in. You will find no condemnation or judgement here, but you already know that.We will appreciate your participation as we value you as brothers and fellow seekers. Freeindeed, you like so many in denominational employ are caught between living your new found freedom in Christ while having to maintain the appearance being an observant Adventist. It is of course a dissonance that can be tolerated for a time, as we all lived with a certain cognitive dissonance and uncertainty even when being happy as Adventists. You have reached an understanding on a spiritual level where you are "freeindeed". This is a wonderful step. You are in for a treat as you continue your journey into freedom. In due course, God will make it clear to you that your witness for Him will not diminish, but rather increase as you shed the bondage of beliefs that cannot be supported scripturally. I continue to marvel at the opportunities to witness everyday since I formally asked to have my name removed from membership. You might have read my resignation letter back in November. For me it was a cleansing and a necessary step. I have not been shy and have shared with others what God has done for me. There is a certain confidence and boldness that comes with sharing good news. The influence of your decision will be a positive and far reaching. Many people will realize that it is okay to question, to study, and to act on their convictions because of the influence you have. Your freedom will be multiplied in those around you because you demonstrated courage and integrity. I will be praying for you as you face the exciting and challenging days ahead. God is with you as you continue to follow Him where He leads. Your brother in Christ, Randy Gerber | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2006 |
Welcome Freeindeed. You have my prayers. I watched an SDA pastor and his adult SS teacher wife, in Oregon, try to change things, 10 years ago, then decide to leave, when the conference shut them up. God will work it all out for you as he has for them and many, many others. The joy of the Lord is with you, always, in his Truth, Jesus, died and risen. We praise God with you that you have this true 'light', now! Cathy | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 142 Registered: 12-2004 |
Arno, Welcome to our family. We all have experienced many of the thoughts, doubts, fears, and disappointments you have described. For a person to grow, they must ask the tough questions. This is a safe place to ask those questions, and a safe place to ponder and reflect on the experiences of other seekers, as we all are searching for greater understanding. Again welcome, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3604 Registered: 12-2003  |
Arno, welcome to the forum. I'd like to suggest a book to you, "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Strobel was an investigative reporter who, years ago, decided to research Jesus when Strobel's wife became a Christian. Strobel, non too happy, set out to provide evidence to counter his wife's decision. The book is well-written and carefully documented. Strobel is an excellent journalist and investigator. There's one more component to your search, Arno. Because the issue of Jesus is partially an issue of faith and not only of objective evidence (although there is that!), you will have to be willing to accept whatever the truth turns out to be. IOW, you need to ask God to reveal the truth about Himself to you in a way you can recognize it, and be willing to accept whatever He might reveal. Praying for you, Arno. Colleen | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2006 |
Randy, the dissonance has been a conscious one for quite some time now. I can see that it will all happen in due time and that this is part of my journey. "Getting out" is not my goal, but I know it is a step forward spiritually. I have had to be careful to keep Jesus as my focus and not all of the things that are wrong about the SDA church. The irony in this particular moment (right now) is that in the background I can see 3ABN running a program called "The Great Advent Awakening", and there is a 2300 day prophecy timeline on the screen right now. The funny thing is, I never watched 3ABN until I began asking the questions. I have to smile. As I look back I don't remember the last time that I was a "happy" Adventist. In fact, the happiness I have had has been a false happiness linked to the fact that I (self-righteously) just knew we were right and everybody else was wrong because we had the Sabbath and we were the Remnant and we had the prophet talked about in Revelation. That was really reassuring knowing you were right. Real happiness has only come in those times that I was able to see past the veil and see Jesus. Every time Jesus was lifted up I was drawn to him and I experienced freedom and joy increased. But every time the Sabbath, or law (synonomous with SDA's) was focussed on I experienced that dissonance and joy would decrease. Amazing! This is getting long, so in short, I'm a happy Christian and a miserable Adventist. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Arno, Welcome~ I am glad to know you. Thank you for sharing your feelings so openly. When I felt like you did about God and the Bible, just praying helped my mental/emotional blocking and the muddled up feelings, no mattter how long it took. Many, many other people have experienced what you are going through; some of the most profound Christian writers have, even. Some famous persons in the Bible felt confusion and/or other things about God. In Psalms, David pours it out. Isaiah and Jeremiah felt deeply, too; and in Lamentations, the feelings are starkly, humanly expressed, in chapter 3, to God (then the hope is given). Jesus' own family and mother believed he was not quite sane, at one point, although at his conception and birth she expressed more faith. The disciples all showed their absolute fear and doubt at Christ's Passion. Elijah ran, panicked for his life, forgetting all the awesome acts of God he had just seen. God knows you are human. Even if you don't know it or feel it, he hears and sees. In time, you will know this. In prayer, his still small voice can come to you, settling your mind and heart into his serenity. Praying, other people, and books by some authors, who have gone through doubts, helped me. One of the best books, which helped me is 'The Jesus I never Knew' by Phillip Yancy. Even though he had been raised a Christian, had been in ministry and teaching Bible college classes about Jesus, he began to ask--Just who is this Jesus? Who have I been talking about, believing in all my life? Is he really real? Was he God? There are so many opinions out there about him, Phillip pondered... Keep asking; you will be answered in time. Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2006 |
Brother Nixon welcome to the forum, reading the supernatural way of your convertion came to my mind the day that I was converted. After weeks of deep convictions (of my sinfulness), finaly a found peace with God on a monday of the year 1988 in a supernatural way too. I remenber that in the morning of that day i experience more than ever how sinful I am, my heart was filled with so greate distress that looked for a place to kneeled down and asked God to forgive my sins (after the pray steel I was in distress), then I went to the adventist book store with a burdened heart, as soon as I got in the abc the burden and the distress that I was feeling desappeared and a feeling of relief took place in my heart (It was surpracing to me how that feeling of relief feeled my heart). While in the abc a book called my atention in an unusual way, it was like some body derected my head and my ayes to that book and bought it, the theme of the book was justification by faith. In went back to my home and started to read the book, while i was reading the book I understood for first time that I was in need of a savior, I got up and went to a place where I kneeled down and asked Jesus to be my savior and the Lord answered my prayer instantaneously, I was filled with a deep peace and joy indescribable. Then 3 verse from the bible came to my mind one after anothe, first Romans 5:1, and it was givet to me to experience what is the meaning of that verse, second Jhon 8:32 and a deep sense of freedom and finaly 2 Corinthian 3:17, I got up full of joy and peace. Blessing brother Nixon. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 777 Registered: 1-2003 |
Arno...I am praying for you. What you are experiencing is what Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Notice Paul uses a little "g" in god...this is refering to the devil. The fact you are experiencing revulsion and other feelings about the bible is not your fault. I know I used to pick up the bible and nothing made sense in it anyway...why? Because I didn't know Jesus. I know what you are feeling...Lord,I am asking on behalf of my new brother Arno that you rebuke the devil...he has no power over Arno because He that is in Arno is greater than he that is in the world. Father, unveil the Gospel and open Arno's eyes so he can see your glory. Send your Holy Spirit to comfort Arno...let him know the devil is a defeated foe, he is like a lion with no teeth, his roar is loud but he has no bite! Lord send comfort to Arno, when he picks up the bible let him feel your peace...let him understand what he is reading...it's all about YOU Jesus. Let him know he is loved...I pray this in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Arno...The fact you are here shows me God is working in your life. You have reached out and we will embrace you here! God will bless your effort...sit back and watch Him work!!! | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2006 |
Arno,.....Welcome I also had a feeling of revulsion come upon me,but it was a revulsion of going to church that crept into my mind until one day the Holy Spirit really got my attention and opened my eyes to it. God is not the auther of confusion, or this revulsion. 2 C0R. 1 v 3-4 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our trubles, so that WE can confort those in ANY trouble with the confort WE ourselfs have received from God. We are here for you and pray for you. Thank you Jesus for bringing Arno!..........BRIX | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 184 Registered: 3-2005 |
Armo, You asked who could help you. I pray to God that He will show Himself to you through His Son Jesus Christ, and that this forum will support you in your path. Cults are kings at smashing one's overall faith. There is something called Truth, and it is found in Jesus Christ. Something that helped me immensely when on my journey was to put down all other literature and pick up the Bible alone and challenge God to give me something in His word, if He had something for me. Was I ever blown away by His taking on this challenge!! God bless you and keep posting, we love your company. Lisa B-D | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2006 |
Arno there is a book (Spiritual Depression: Its Cause and Its Cure) by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. This book help me when I was in the situation that yuo are facing now. I bought that book in an evangelical book store in my contry. ®This is a helpful and down-to-earth series of messages which will help all who are struggling with the doubt and uncertainty which underlies so much spiritual deprÎssion.® | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006  |
Welcome Arno, I am quite new to this forum also and have found the people here quite friendly and supportive. I just read your first post and can really relate to your feelings you are having right now. It reminds me of myself several years ago, when I finally decided to pull my head out of the sand (it just wasn't working any more), and start searching for answers. I continue to be amazed at the number of people who describe pain and hurt and disillusionment from having been SDA. Thank God for the Internet! This is where I've finally discovered there are so many people similar to me. It would never have occurred to me that so many people could be that unhappy, or dissatisfied, or be leaving the church. I just thought I was one of the "unusual" ones who "refused" to see the truth. I spent years working through these things all alone, or trying to discuss them with my siblings, who mostly just wished I would shut up and move on because that's what they were trying to do. I spent many, many years angry--at the church, at my father (my mother always refused to join the church, even though she was Christian), and my confusion and anger were so strong and so confused, oftentimes, I couldn't even say exactly why and what about the experience upset me the most. Mostly, I guess, it was the rigid control and not being taught or ALLOWED to think for myself, and then when I did grow up and start to encounter the real world, I became very bitter toward the Adventist church for keeping me so "in the dark." The funny thing is, these feelings did not start to come out until the last few years. All through my 20s and 30s I tried to just forget it all, and get on with life, but couldn't understand why I still felt so intimidated by all things Adventist. The hold on me was very strong, though I fought it fiercely. The problem with all that was, it turned me completely off from all things spiritual, all religion. I just thought it was all pretty much a prison invented to try to control "uppity" persons such as myself. I can relate to your feelings about the God of the Bible. I had to pretty much "throw away" that god, and eventually found a concept of "God" that made sense to me. This took lots and lots of reading---and I was not afraid to read ANYTHING that someone had to say because I wanted information. I have read so much stuff that I ultimately said, "Nope, I don't buy that either," because for me the number one requirement is: It has to make sense for me. I know that not everyone is as concerned about that as I am, but I can't subscribe to anything that doesn't ring true for me. And I had issues with many Christian ideas going way back to when I was a little kid. Why a little kid concerned herself with whether Jesus was "real" or not, I can't tell you---that's just how I was. I had really big issues with "God the Father" as he reminded me way too much of my own father and grandfather, and I certainly didn't want to have a "personal" relationship with that god, even if I'd known how. I have developed (and continue to develop) a concept of "god" that seems to make sense to me. It is a very vague, wispy, mystical, hard-to-explain concept but I compare it to the idea of the "Holy Spirit" of the Christian trinity. I never could relate to God the Father, or Jesus, but I really liked the idea of the Holy Spirit as an everywhere-present, life-giving, non-corporeal, non-judgemental "something" that is the Source of all Life, all that is. THAT, I decided, was the "REAL" god, the other was just stuff that people in various cultures came up with to try to explain to themselves something that, ultimately is unexplainable. That's an attempt to explain my current ideas, in a nutshell---kinda like nailing jelly to a tree.... very difficult to do! LOL! I know that lots of the folks on this forum have found comfort in the Bible, and Jesus, but it seems that you, like me, are not going to find much there for yourself except more pain---whether because of former bad experiences, or whether because some of the Christian teachings just do not seem to resonate with what you feel to be true. My ideas might not be for everyone, especially those who ARE finding peace in more traditional Christianity, but my recommendation to anyone who feels the level of anger and bitterness that you do (and that I did) is to seek in other places. There are many philosophies, many religions, many ways to look at the world besides Christian. If you were able to let go of the notion that God requires the peculiarly Adventist beliefs, perhaps you can also move on to let go of some of the other (Christian) things that haven't worked for you. I, too, have come to the conclusion that there is some kind of Source or Infinite Mind present creating and sustaining the Universe, but I no longer see it as so cut-and-dried as even the most liberal of Christian churches may present it. I firmly believe that each person needs to feel free to call out to this "Source" for answers, without fear of being condemned or reprimanded for not holding the "proper" beliefs. So, in other words, I don't believe that God is any one thing, be it Christian or Buddhist or Wiccan or anything else. I believe God is what we need Him/Her/It to be. If not, then it wouldn't be God. It would be limited and basically powerless. Yes, I know this all sounds very esoteric and "white-lighty" but, well, life isn't always that simple or easy to explain. I spent a lot of unhappy hours trying to figure things out, figure out why I couldn't be happy, why I couldn't believe, etc, etc... At last, I have reached a point where I am more comfortable and satisfied with what I practice and what I believe, knowing that every day is a growing and learning experience, and that every day (hopefully) I will gain some new insight that challenges my mind WHERE I AM TODAY. It took me a long time to move away from the concept that there is one "ultimate" truth, to a point of, dare I say it?? Relativism??? Or perhaps, more like paradox... more than one thing can be "true"---it's whether it works for the individual that makes it REAL. Again, I hope I haven't offended too many people with my rather "far-out" ideas. And, Arno, if you'd like to learn a little about the particular brand of Christianity that I have finally found that I can embrace, you can check out another post of mine on (3-20-06) in a thread entitled "introducing myself..." Sorry, I'm not real clever at this forum stuff yet, and I'm not exactly sure how to link to a particular post but I will give it a try: Hopefully this will take you there: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4043.html?1143136240 Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3612 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, I respect you and your long and painful journey, but I have to counter what you say about some people's pain being too deep and severe to find comfort in the God of the Bible. Further, I have to say that God really is a Specific Being, not whatever a person needs him to be. To be sure, God is outside our limited dimensions, and we cannot fully comprehend Him. But He IS a real being, and He is personal. He is not "will'o'the-wisp-y" although He is far more than we can get our mortal minds around. Also, to be sure, He is what we need Him to beóbut that does not mean He is what we THINK we need Him to be at any given time in our lives. The burden of proof is on God to reveal Himselfóbut absolutely no one will embrace Him on the basis of what makes logical sense to us. God is spirit, and we must worship Him both in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Both our minds that can know facts cognitively (truth) and our spirits must be submitted to knowing Him. Further, spiritual truth will not make sense to our natural minds (2 Corinthians 1 and 2). Only God our Creator knows how our psyches, our spirits, and our minds function. There really is no healing apart from knowing Him. The fact that many have been hurt in His name does not qualify them to find peace through some other "paradigm" or god. Being hurt in the name of God simply means we must be willing to learn what is True. The fact that we were deceived does not change what truth is. It just means we must be willing to be awakened to Truth and Realityóand they are real and absolute. Christ-followers have not been passionate about Jesus for 2,000 years just because they've found "something" that "works for them". They are passionate because they actually KNOW (yes, know as in knowing a Person) Jesus, and they are brought to life by Him. Deception abounds, and many forms of deception mimic certain aspects of Christianity, but the Bible is the enduring and unchanging word of God, and Jesus is the only One who can heal our deepest wounds and set us free. Truly, there is no "brand" of Christianity except one: the worship of Jesus our Savior, the eternal God who died for us and opened the way for us to be united with the Father through the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Eternal God, the Three-In-One, is not an abstraction. He is hidden in mystery, but God has revealed Himself and His purposes through Jesus. I cannot endorse inviting someone in deep pain to find another way to peace, because any other way will ultimately disappoint and become an even deeper bondage. Joyce, I would challenge you as well as Arno to ask God to reveal Himself to you as He is. I would challenge you to tell Him how angry you are about your understanding of His supposed involvement in humanity and ask Him to make you willing to know Truth if you have been wrong. I'm just challenging you to try an experiment. If you really want to know what is true, ask God to reveal Himself. And try reading only the Bible, putting aside all other religous reading for one month. God is not subjective; He is objective, the One and Only, the Creator, the one true Healer of our hearts. Oh, it will hurt to surrender our wounds for His debridement and surgery and ultimate healing, but only in His eternal hands will our wounds be completely and eternally healed. Only when we look outside ourselves and submit to the God who is sovereign over us will we find the freedom and the peace that come from knowing that One who knows all and is over all holds us safely in His eternal love. Only outside ourselves is truth. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 635 Registered: 4-2000  |
Arno, A hearty FAF welcome to you! My heart reaches out to you in your distress, confusion, and pain. I likewise endorse the recommendation of Colleen for you to read Lee Strobel's excellent book entitled, "A CASE FOR CHRIST." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 741 Registered: 7-2000 |
Awesome post Colleen. But I would add that one searching to know God should begin by reading the New Testament instead of the Old. We are told that Jesus is the exact representation of God. If you want to know about God, then you need to look at Jesus. | ||
| Blacksheep Registered user Username: Blacksheep Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have not posted here or even read much lately on FAF, but when I found this thread I felt compelled to post again. Arno, your post brought back much of what I have felt off and on over many years. I believe much has to do with I have seen so many Christians carry on excessively about their "so called" righteousness because they have the truth whether it is SDA or another religion and try to pound into others their personal beliefs. At this stage in my life I feel there is for each of us a very personal path that has brought us to where we are. Note above: Joyce has found a peace that differs from many people who who are on this forum. Even tho she differs from traditional Christianity, she should not be written off as wrong. God created us as individuals to think for ourselves and not be driven by those who are on different life paths. Remember, it is SDA that put us all into this predicament that has brought us all together to leave behind what was pounded into us. We have had to leave SDA in our own way and find the inner peace the way it suits us best. Just as one might find peace by a Baptist congregation another by reading Ratliff or Ford or another by reading the Bible only, and so on the ultimate goal is to be content in our belief system to find the inner peace we all have been searching for. Most people on this forum have found that via Jesus. I like Joyce have not found my comfort there. I had to let go of all religion to start over. It is for me a continual learning process. I don't understand it all, but as long as I know I can continue to grow spiritually that is what works for me. I still have doubts about the validity of the Bible. I know that sounds harsh, but I cannot force myself to believe it as I once did. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2407 Registered: 3-2004  |
Arno, I will tell you what we do in 12 step programs when it comes to God. Some people call Him Higher Power, some give Him a name. Another thing they do is write down the characteristics you want in a God. Then act as if your version of God is that way and believe it. Also, pray all the time. Talk to God like you would to your best friend. When I am driving I ask God to sit in the right seat and talk to Him as I would to my best friend. God does listen and answer, when you are ready for the answer. Sometimes it is right away and other times you have to wait, but God is working on the answer. I will be praying for you. Diana | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2004  |
I have felt similarly to what is described here... not knowing if I could believe the Bible, or anything at all, for that matter. What I did was study enough of the history of Christianity to decide that it would not be unreasonable to believe the Bible. But it took a conscious decision to believe. I believe God has me on a journey of faith, and it's been quite the adventure. The book "the Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel is good but I've read reviews of it by people who were not impressed at all by it... It can make a person think though. I enjoyed reading it. It will not prove anything to an athiest I think. I like Colleen's challenge... ask God to reveal himself to you. I did this! The response was slow... a long journey... and God slowly but surely is revealing Himself to me. I prayed for God to reveal Himself to me "in a way I can understand". Jeremiah |
