| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 627 Registered: 4-2000  |
Recently, I read an excellent article by Dr. Norman Geisler on the topic of annihilationism. The following excerpts are taken from his book, "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," pp. 23,24:
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3580 Registered: 12-2003  |
Very interesting, Dennis. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2005 |
So - One million years into eternity, God will be spending time energy and space to keep the fires of hell burning and people alive unnaturally so as not to demean the love of God? Yes Dennis, interesting post. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 630 Registered: 4-2000 |
Catalyst, Interestingly, in a clear example of beings who were still conscious after a thousand years of conscious torment in hell, the Bible says of the beast and the false prophet that "The two of them were thrown ALIVE into the fiery lake of burning sulphur" (Rev. 19:20) before the "thousand years" (Rev. 20:2). Yet after this period "the devil, who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE ALSO; [present tense] and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10 NASB). This doesn't sound even remotely like annihilation. The fact that the wicked are "punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thess.1:9) strongly implies that they must be conscious. One cannot suffer punishment without existence. It is no punishment to beat a dead corpse. An unconscious person feels no pain. One thing is certain, you cannot be annihilated "day and night forever and ever." The sins of the wicked are ever before the Father--they cannot be forgotten since they were never forgiven. An eternal God requires eternal justice. Indeed, we can trust the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:46, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The parallelism in this passage is too obvious to miss.
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3583 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, I've come to understand eternal punishment as something related to eternal quarrantine as well. To be unable to have a relationshipófor eternityówith God Who is a consuming fire would be unimaginable suffering. To refuse to know the Sin Bearer must have a consequence of an equal but opposite intensity as saying "Yes" to Him would have. No, Catalyst, I don't believe there is any eternal "stoking" going on. Eternal consequences, though, are described in figurative language in the Bible. I don't think there's any way to adequately describe hell in language that captures its essence for us limited to our three dimensions and time. Just as "streets of gold" we understand to be figurative of something astonishing we can't comprehend, so, I believe, are the "fires" of hell. I've no doubt the reality will be burning, but exactly what it will be like we simply can't know. Colleen | ||
| Anotherseeker Registered user Username: Anotherseeker Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2005 |
I dont see how Matthew 5:22 and Rev 20:12-14 show that there are DEGREES of punishment in hell? I just see that there will be a HELL.. it mentions the judgement and the council....are these places in Hell....i think not. This was stated in the final paragraph of Norman Geisler's article that Dennis posted. Please enlighten me if my understanding is amiss | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 631 Registered: 4-2000 |
Anotherseeker, Thank you for your comments. In Revelation 20:12-14, at the judgment, the books are opened. They represent God's judgment, and in them are recorded the deeds of everyone, good or evil. Clearly, the rewards for all will be awarded "according to their deeds." Thus, there will be DEGREES OF REWARD for both the saved and the unsaved. Since God's elect do not come into judgment for determining eligibility for their salvation, this judgment is only for their rewards that vary from one saint to another. Likewise, in Matthew 5:22, Jesus teaches that there are indeed degrees of sin. Even though all sins "affront God's infinite holiness," this passage teaches the degrees of a profane life. Given the degrees of sin, there are degrees of reward. The Life Application Study Bible (NLT) gives the following additional comments on this passage:
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2005 |
Isaiah 28:21 I thought I understood the passage above to refer to the annihilation of sinners, in which he refers to God's strange work. Did anyone catch the Simpsons tonight? Homer predicted the end of the world, and after the townspeople were disappointed when they went to the appointed place at the appointed time, nothing happened. After much humiliation, and his family bailing on him, he figured out what his mistake was and went back to the appointed spot. Well of course, he was right, and was raptured to Heaven. After enjoying himself, he asked God what happened to his fellow townspeople. Well, God showed Homer what the people of Springfield, and his family as well, were going through...When he saw that his family was suffering torment, Homer asked God to send him back, because he couldn't stand to see his family suffer like they were. So would I be happy knowing my family and friends were in eternal torment? I know, this is not a real popular position to take on this board, but it's what seems to make more sense to me...So for the time being, I'd have to reject the idea of eternal torment. Just putting in my $0.02 worth. Jason | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3591 Registered: 12-2003 |
The problem with making our happiness the criteria for deciding whether or not God "would do" something is that it makes us the central, dominant value in the universe. God's glory is the highest value in the universe, not us. As Augustine said, the chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. As long as we evaluate eternity by the standard we know from this mortal, three-dimensional world, we are creating an image that is not reality. We can't know exactly WHAT we will experience of feel in eternity, but our chief attention and fulfillment will be Jesusónot ourselves or even each other. You're right, Jason--the way we evaluate eternity is what seems to make the "most sense" to us mortals. It's just that we mortals cannot see reality. It is much bigger than we are, and we are not the measure of reality. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1325 Registered: 7-2003 |
Why is there the assumption those in heaven will "see" those in eternal torment (whatever that ends up being)? Those cannot possibly be pleasant images to observe. I cannot imagine that I would feel "better" seeing someone burn up. Just think of people who have observed such tragedies in life (those coming back from war or who saw people jump from the world trade centers...). Its images never get "better". I just can't imagine we will have consciousness of those on the outside because whether we see it or not, it would be knowing what's happening that would be just as hard as watching. But that is merely personal opinion 3:16. I just have no scripture basis to say we can or can't see what's happening, but it seems a lot of presumption to assume "we watch". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3597 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, MelissaóI agree with you. The argument about "seeing" our loved ones suffereing eternal torment is one of the straw-man arguments Adventists use to convince each other there cannot be eternal hell. Actually, the Bible is remarkably silent about the details. It is a presumptive leap to assume we can watch the suffering. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 633 Registered: 4-2000 |
Melissa, Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) informs us that there is no crossover from one dimension to another. "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will NOT be able, and that NONE may cross over from there to us" (Luke 16:26 NASB emphasis supplied). Therefore, this is another reason why our Adventist friends do not like this parable. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2005 |
Dennis - So Moses talking with Jesus and Peter watching would be explained how?... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3603 Registered: 12-2003 |
Catalyst, the miracle on the Mount of Transfiguration was accomplished by God to make a specific and eternal point: the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) were about to be supreceded and replaced with Jesus alone. This miraculous event was and is not "standard procedure" under any circumstances. It was a singularity given for a really significant reason: God was about to change the administration of His grace from the Mosaic to the New Covenant. If He didn't place His own soveriegn stamp of truth on it, people would have argued that the change was just someone's ideaósomeone who didn't want to "be bothered with the law" (sound familiar?). When God does a miracle for a specific purpose, it's not normative for all other circumstances. But somehow I think you already know that! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 634 Registered: 4-2000 |
PS: Since there is a "great chasm fixed" between dimensions, this seems to indicate no "visual" crossover as well . Likewise, we can't see anything outside of our dimension in this life (i.e., we can't see Satan and his angels, observe those in hell, nor see God's angels). Additionally, the Bible says that former things will not even come to mind. Heaven will be so splendid and wonderful that we will not even want to think about those who aren't there. God will lovingly spare us of such horror. Those in heaven will fully trust Jesus in every way--this includes knowing that a valid reason exists why their friends and relatives aren't there. Going through the juicy details of the lost or seeing their agony would not be heavenly at all. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1327 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dennis, I looked at that parable before I posted to see if there was any lesson in that regard, what I found was that the rich man could converse with Abraham, which made me wonder about what I could really say with any certainty. Although, it doesn't seem Lazarus is aware of the conversation.... | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 253 Registered: 2-2005 |
One of the problems I have with the idea of annihilation is this. Because God is holy, sin must be punished. But fortunately, through Christ (the only acceptable propitiation for sin) we who are in Christ have been given a way out of the punishment our sin deserves. So what of those who are lost and must endure the wrath of God since they have rejected Christ and His sacrifice? If annihilation were true, it seems like this would mean that the demands of God's holy justice could be met after some undetermined period of time through an imperfect sacrifice. Doesn't seem possible. So that's a big problem in my mind. If Christ is the only propitiation, how could the sacrifice of sinful bodies meet the demands of perfect justice? Is this what "limited atonement" means? Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3606 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very interesting observation, Heretic. I hadn't quite thought of it in those terms before. I have thought that rejecting the Source of Life would have to yield an opposite but equally significant consequence to that received by those who accept Jesus, and annihlation does not seem to be an "equal but opposite" response to rejecting Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2173 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I read your comment about heaven being paved in streets of gold and decided to share with everyone reading this a story. Saint Peter, heaven's gatekeeper noticed that too many folks entering heaven missed having something from back home along with them so he decided to institute a new policy that said that everyone coming into heaven could bring one thing with them from their earthly days. So a new man got to heavens gate and St. Peter asked him what he brought with him and the man told him he brought his much loved little dog. That was o.k. so St. Peter let the guy and his dog in. Then another fellow came to heaven's gate and wanted to be let in. St. Peter asked what he brought and he said a photograph of his wife who he had loved so much. Peter told him his wife was in heaven waiting for him but he could still have the picture so the man and the picture were now in heaven with his wife. Another man got to heavens gate and this man was carrying a huge and very heavy suitcase. Peter asked the man what he brought and the man went on to tell St. Peter that while living on earth he had been very wealthy and he just couldn't bring himself to part with his wealth. So Peter looked in the suitcase and it was filled with beautiful gold bars. St. Peter exclaimed to the man, "Oh, I see you brought pavement." | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2005 |
Re: PS: Since there is a "great chasm fixed" between dimensions, this seems to indicate no "visual" crossover as well And also to Colleen - If you state that there is a rule that cannot be broken - and then proof that the rule is broken is shown - obviously there are exceptions to the "rule". |
