| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 210 Registered: 11-2005 |
Cathy -- I personally think we have to keep in mind our ultimate objective in dialoging with our friends and loved ones. Part of that, to me, means being ready with the seeds of truth when the Holy Spirit has the garden of the mind ready. It is important that we be non-confrontational if at all possible. I see at least a couple of different scenerios possibly playing out: 1. We do nothing and the Adventists we dialog with think we are out of touch with the SDA Church of 2006. Furthermore they may in turn bombard us with what they are learning in the hope that "we will see the light". This means that we are always behind, and on the defensive. Not good. 2. We do nothing and the Adventists we dialog with think they have "current light" that should straighten out our "confused thinking". They attempt to "educate" us. This means that we are always behind, and on the defensive. Not good either. 3. We at the very least understand in advance "where they are coming from", and give ourselves sufficient thought and preparation to respond prayerfully and from the heart with answers that will lead them to Jesus. We are at least prepared. 4. We take the thoughts presented in #3 above and put them in a non-confrontational format that interested parties can use to study along with what the Sabbath School Quarterly provides. Some will reject it outright. I suspect many will at least be curious. Some or our contacts will be bold enough to bring up these points for discussion in their Sabbath School classes. They in turn are acting as God's agents to help us plant the seed among their friends. What a powerful witness. And once they realize that there is more to these subjects than what the General Conference is providing they will be more discerning and willing to think for themselves. The truth is a powerful thing. I agree with Brix that this requires much prayer, and supplication to God seeking the appropriate response, and the best way to be used by Him. It may also be that the Trinity is perhaps a good quarter to just watch and see how the lessons compare with the Bible. Most Adventists may not have the energy or interest to care about the finer differences as they relate to the Trinity or Holy Spirit. Even a subject like placing the 7th-day Sabbath in the place of the Holy Spirit in the Seal of God, may loose many of them. Trying to postpone the Day of Atonement until 1844 is just so unbiblical that any amount of careful advance exposure to the truth should bear an abundant harvest. That also gives us three months to sow the seed. The arguments are already laid out by Ballenger, Prescott, Fletcher, Canright, Ford and a host of others. If the General Conference spent 25 years in secret sessions trying to find a way to reconcile 1844 with the Bible, you can be sure they don't have any better answer now. I really don't see how the Sabbath School Quarterly on 1844 can even make it to completion with an informed audience. As I have thought about what I personally feel to be the most important points within the Gospel, for me it goes something like this: 1. Prior to Christ's death the focus was on the coming Messiah. After that central event the focus became the theme of Hebrews and Romans -- that Jesus is NOW our High Priest, and that His death WAS the Final Atonement. If we don't properly recognize His role as our High Priest, nothing else matters, does it? 2. As High Priest of a new priestly order, He also introduced a New Covenant that also changes the way He relates to us, and we relate to Him. This approach doesn't position us as attacking the Law (of Sin and Death), but of assisting inquiring minds in finding out what the Scriptures have to say about this New Covenant. Loved ones can argue with our opinions. It is much harder to argue with mountains of Biblical proof -- and there are hundreds of references through out the epistles emphasing that Jesus was the one who implemented the New Covenant (Law of the Spirit of Life, etc.) This is not buried away in one obscure verse somewhere. The first identifies who He is; the second our relationship. SDA theology is so faulty pertaining to these two points, that I don't see how any sincere Bible-believing Seventh-day Adventist can correctly understand these two points, and yet fail to see that Ellen White is a false prophet without us every having to bring that to their attention. This can be supported strictly from the Bible. They won't find 1844 anywhere in sacred scriptures. To propose that Jesus did not become "our" High Priest until 1844, begs the question, "What did He do between His resurrection and 1844?" For anyone looking for material, I could easily come up with a full page of cogent links. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3572 Registered: 12-2003  |
Chris, your study is really great. Gilbert, you make a good point about Jesus' high priesthood being the basis of our relationship with the Lord God. There was a reason for the elaborate "living metaphor" of the Mosaic covenant. The reality of Jesus is astonishing, and God prepared humanity for Him by giving Israel the task of living out the shadows. Colleen | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jorgf, I agree with you about pointing out " who " is the Hight Priest of the new covenant. Arron or Jesus? In my fellowshipping with SDA's , the law was entrenched into their thinking, and used much as the standered to interprate key new covenant truth. They could not see in the scripture that the old covenant of the law was temperary and had to be abolished for God to fullfill his covenant with Abraham, rightessness by faith to all the nations. About the Q. What did he do between his resurrection and 1844? Ths same thing hes been doing from the resurrection until today, sitting at the right hand of his Father. But I still would like to see them links. Thank you. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 188 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Folks, Just thought I'd drop in to say hello, and see if my password is still working. Things are hectic here, but at least life is not boring. My friend who nearly became an Adventist, Gyula, told me yesterday that he preached in the morning to a group of old people who have been Christians for about 40 years. I was preaching somewhere else. He said he spoke on the features of the new covenant and how it differs from the old, and he said at the end the meeting turned into a sort of interactive forum with everyone really interested and asking questions. These folks had never heard this stuff before! I really stress the new covenant and its implications, like relationship to the kingdom, the church age, the last days, and so on, with my Bible college classes. I really want them to understand how important this is! We had to admit, yesterday afternoon, that all this Adventist encounter experience, though it was really hard to go through at the time, has been so useful in helping us to understand so many things about the Christian life, simply because of having to correct all the Adventist errors, and having to understand why we believe what we do believe. It's amazing how God does things! God bless, Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3577 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, I'm so glad to hear from you again! I've been wondering how you are doing and also your friend Gyula. Isn't it amazing how God works? He really does send these things into our lives for His purposes. Understanding the New Covenant, I believe, is a crucial thing. Christianity has become cloudy about the true nature of the gospel. Working through the Adventist doctrines brings the new covenant into focus, and it is an understanding that we who see it must share. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 649 Registered: 7-2004 |
Doc, Good to see your password is still working... I, too, talk and talk about the New Covenant. I am a leader in BSF - an inter-denominational Bible study. After leaving Adventism for New Covenant beliefs I find myself surprised by Christians that really do not have a clear understanding of what the New Covenant is. BSF is the Bible study that opened my eyes to God's saving grace and in the study of Acts last year we worked our way through Hebrews - the book that screams, "NEW COVENANT", yet, looking at Genesis this year, it seems many have forgotten it. It is not that the study has traded grace for works. It is just a forgotten term. We have studied about Hagar, Ishmael, Isaac and the miraculous new birth (which Paul talks about in Galatians in regard to these Genesis characters). BSF makes it clear that it is God's miraculous work that changes us to "new" beings resulting in joy, gladness, satisfaction. Yet, New Covenant is not mentioned. We have also discussed Ishmael representing living under the law of our own works while Isaac represents the divine intervention of our lives through the Holy Spirit. Again, BSF did not mention, "New Covenant". When we move this summer, one of the first things we plan to do is look for a church that openly talks about God's New Covenant replacing the old. I am already praying that God will lead us to such a place, if there is indeed such a place. I am so happy for my SDA upbringing that brings the New Covenant into focus. Many Christians are missing out on such a fulfilling and marvelous Biblical term or truth. Give me Jesus! Denise | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, Sorry to interrupt your wonderful Trinity study. Keep up the hard work. God is revealing Himself through you. Denise | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1164 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hi Adrian! It's really good to see you back. Check in more often!  Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1165 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thank you for the encouragement Colleen and Dd. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1166 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part VI So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God (YHWH), there are no others. 2. The Father is God (YHWH) and the Son is God (YHWH). However, we have not yet exhausted the Biblical teaching demonstrating that the Son is God. Tonight I will present explicit Biblical statements that Jesus Christ is God.
Now someone might argue that "mighty God" is a lesser title that doesn't apply to the one true God, YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel. Such an argument does not hold up to Biblical scrutiny for two reasons. First, there is a huge amount of scripture stating there is only ONE God and there are no others. Further, that one true God is identified as YHWH over and over. So there simply cannot be gods of varying "might" according to scripture (see Part I of this study for scriptural evidence). Second, the title "mighty God" is clearly applied to the One true God, YHWH, the God of Jacob.
So we can readily see that "mighty God" applies to YHWH and the coming Messiah who Isaiah prophesied about in Is. 9:6, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is YHWH, the mighty God. The next text is quite well know and very explicit. Here Jesus Christ is referred to as "the Word".
Some have tried to argue that Jesus, the Word, is only "a god" and not "the God", however there is no linguistic reason in the Greek to assert this. Rather we could site rules of Greek grammar as well as the same Greek construction elsewhere showing that such an assertion is incorrect. But even if the grammar of "a god" were correct (which it is not), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God (see Part I of this study for Biblical proof that there is only one God). For the next verse, the best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenes, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique"). Even in the older translations like KJV and it's close heirs like the NASB, when monogenes is translated "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god." The idea is the absolute uniqueness of Jesus as God the Son who reveals the Father.
Note in this next passage that Jesus's response to Thomas shows that Thomas's assertion was correct.
This next text is obviously referring to Jesus Christ and it calls Him God.
This next one has more than one possible grammatical interpretation, but the many of the best modern translators believe the best and smoothest reading of the grammar supports the identification of Christ as "God". I'll list differing translations to be balanced.
This next one is very strong and explicit indeed. There is little doubt contextually that this text identifies Jesus Christ as God nor is there doubt grammatically, according to Sharp's first rule, that this text calls Jesus Christ "our great God and Savior".
We now turn to Hebrews. The context of Hebrews chapter 1 in the superiority and full deity of Jesus Christ. Here, the Son is called God by the Father.
The following text in 2 Peter uses the same grammatical construction as that in Titus 2:13.
As you're reading the following texts, ask yourself who the most obvious antecedent for "This" is. It seems to me that it is Jesus Christ who is being referred to as "the true God and eternal life". Not only is Jesus Christ the most obvious antecedent, but John has already told us in the same book that "the Word", who was with the Father, is "eternal life".
In the next installment I will present scriptures that teach implicitly that Jesus is God. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1444 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Outstanding job on this thread. This has been great to read, and represents some of the best posting I have seen anywhere. This is such an important and basic topic for all former SDAs as well as all Christians, as there is a lot of misunderstanding on this topic. You hit the nail on the head, when you said there is a big trend in so-called evangelicalism to now start accepting the false teachings of T.D. Jakes--a modalist-- and other oneness Pentecostals. Thanks again for this inspiring and informative thread! Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, this is definitely a great study to lay out so clearly, Chris, thanks for your time and effort. I wonder if other Christians who claim to believe in the Trinity have as much confusion over it as those with an SDA background do. Or maybe no one stops to think about it. Growing up through the 60's and 70's, I remember having a distinct sense that Jesus was at most a lesser God, but that it was somewhat debatable, and I thought the consensus at that time was the Holy Spirit was God's presence rather than a distinct being. From the 80's and on, I've seen much more emphasis on at least a semblance of the Trinity doctrine, but it's not at all unusual to know SDA people who are definitely not accepting even the current SDA version of the Trinity doctrine. And I've certainly seen lots of confusion in this area, and even more who think it's not worth delving into, because it's a mystery and not important to understand--certainly not as important as the Sabbath. Then there's the age-old debate within Adventism of whether Jesus was born with Adam's pre-sin or post-sin nature. I've never really analyzed what my understanding of the Trinity is before your previous posts several months ago, and even more so with these current posts. I'm just thankful I'm in agreement with standard Christian doctrine on these important points--there's enough else out there that is still confusing. I would be curious to ask my mom, who joined the SDA church in the 1940's (from a mostly unchurched background), what her original understanding of the Trinity was, versus what it is now. But I don't think that would be open for discussion. | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2006 |
Chris, This is very good teaching and I like it when you use several translations together to compare their useage of words. BRIX | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3593 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, interesting memories of your "Trinity exposure". Actually, much of what you describe is familiar to me, too. I always pictured Jesus as a sort of lesser God, but I spoke of Him as God. Such internal dissonance! The pre-sin, post-sin nature of Christ caused me much more trouble. The Trinity issue I largely dismissed as not that important as an Adventist; I truly agonized over Christ's nature. I never could understand itóuntil after I left Adventism and realized that our true life centers in our spirit, not in our flesh. Again, Chrisóthank you for this awesome study. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1167 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thank you Stan, Raven, and Brix for the kind words and encouragement. They are much appreciated. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1168 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part VII So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God (YHWH), there are no others. 2. The Father is God (YHWH) and the Son is God (YHWH). For the past several evenings we have been examining scripture showing that Jesus is YHWH followed by several explicit statements saying that Jesus Christ is God. Tonight I would like to present scriptures that teach that Jesus has the titles of God. We have looked at some of these texts, but I find it helpful and convicting to group them by titles. You will also note some new texts that we have not yet examined. JESUS HAS THE TITLES OF GOD: The first and the last:
King of kings and Lord of lords:
Savior:
Shepherd:
Rock:
Tomorrow I will present scripture showing that Jesus receives the honors due to God alone. Chris | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Chris, Colleen, Denise, Thanks for the welcome. I've been wondering about how you all are too. Sorry about interupting you too, Chris, I just didn't bother to start a new thread. I will do so again now :-) I have been very busy for quite a while. I have a lot of work teaching English and translating, which is mainly what I do for a living. I have also been asked to take on a much greater role in the Bible college (in Budapest). For the last few years I have been teaching Christology, Soteriology and Ecclesiology (doctrine of Christ, salvation and the church), and they now want me to do a much more comprehensive systematic theology including Cosmology, Anthropology, Hamartiology, Pneumatology, Angelology, Demonology and Eschatology (creation, study of man, sin, the Holy Spirit, angels and demons, and the last things). This involves a lot of preparation, but I love it! I will probably have to continue my own studies to get a higher degree, as I only have a Bible College diploma at the moment, and I will need at least a Master's to teach college here due to changing government regulations. I hope to do that through my old Bible College back in England. The local church is doing OK at the moment. We have a lot of new people attending, so I have started doing some basic teaching with them. After a long period of stagnation, God is definitely doing something exciting at the moment, but we did learn a lot though the dry period :-) I addition to all this lot, God seems to be speaking to me about some sort of contact with Slovakia (just to the north). I have been to visit and preach once or twice, but no strong links have been developed as yet. People I have met tell me there are very few Evanglical Christians there, just a few thousand out of a population of 5 million. I am therefore trying to learn some basic Slovak in preparation. We have not had much contact with Adventists recently, which is one reason I have not popped in to ask any questions lately! The last time Gyula and I talked to his Adventist friends, I think we started to get through to them. I can't remember exactly what we were talking about, but his pastor friend's arrogant attitude seemed to crack and he looked a bit panicky. He then suddenly developed a bad back and had to lie down on the floor. Since that occasion, they have never bothered to get back in touch. It's a pity, because G·bor did make some comment like, "if you are right, then we are in dead trouble." God can still get through to him! Anyway, that will do for now, Good study on the Trinity Chris, God bless, Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3600 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, it's good to hear your news. How exciting about the Slovakia possibility. It's so amazing to me to see how God puts before the us work He wants us to do! It's always good to hear from you... With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1169 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part VIII So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God, there are no others. 2. The Father is God and the Son is God. Today I would like to present scriptures that teach that Jesus receives the honors due to God alone and that Jesus does the works of God. JESUS RECEIVES THE HONORS DUE TO GOD ALONE: Honor:
Love:
Prayer:
Worship:
Faith:
JESUS DOES THE WORKS OF GOD: Creation:
Sustaining the universe:
Finally, scripture teaches that Jesus does ALL the works of God. Although the Son is subordinate to the Father in terms of roles and relationships, the Son is absolutely equal to the Father in His being, deity, power, attributes and works. The Son is one with Father, one being, one God:
In the next installment I will follow up the scripture immediately above with additional scriptures that show Jesus's claim to be the Son of God was rightly understood as a claim to equality with God. I will also present scripture that teaches that Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God and is therefore God Himself. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1170 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Biblical Basis of the Trinity Part IX So far in our study we have seen that the Bible clearly teaches that 1. There is only one God, there are no others. 2. The Father is God and the Son is God. Today I would like to present scriptures that teach that Jesus's claim to be the Son of God was rightly understood as a claim to equality with God. I will also present scripture that teaches that Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God and is therefore God Himself. In scripture, the word "son" can and often does simply mean one possessing the nature of something. This can be literal or figurative. Here are two examples:
Whenever we see "son of" used about a person in scripture, that person possesses the nature of the father. Some examples are "son of man", "son of Abraham", and "son of David". Jesus is not the Son of God in a literal sense. Jesus does not have a beginning and is not created. Jesus is the unique preeminent eternal Son of God in terms of relationships and roles and because he possesses the nature of the Father (see the previous parts of this study for scriptural teaching that the Son possesses the nature of the Father). Jesus repeatedly claimed to be the Son of God and thereby claimed equality with God. This was a very bold claim which was rightly understood by the Jewish leadership to mean that Jesus was equal with God. The Jewish leaders considered this claim to be blasphemous, which indeed it would be if Jesus were not God. Jesus never denied the understanding that the Jewish leaders had and instead continued to assert His claim repeatedly in ever stronger ways.
Finally, I would like to conclude the portion of the study dealing with Jesus Christ as God by showing that Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God. These are the attributes that cannot be given to any created being, but are only possessed by the one true God. Jesus is self-existent:
Jesus is unchangeable:
Jesus is eternal:
Jesus is omnipresent:
Jesus is omniscient:
Jesus has ALL the incommunicable attributes of God:
In the next installment I will present scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. Chris |
