| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2006  |
Chris, to try to answer your question first, what Unity teaches mostly is based on the teachings of Jesus, as in his actions, and parables, and so forth. The compassion and caring and healing. That sort of thing. Not really so much the other more technical and theological stuff---just practical ideas. That's why they call it "practical Christianity." Of course, the Gospels are the writings of other people, not Jesus himself, so we can't know anything for sure about what he said or did. We can only surmise, based on what was written about him by his followers. I think the Unity approach is more, "What can I get from this particular Bible story that is applicable today, that I can learn from and apply in my life right now," rather than "What did it mean exactly back then?" Of couse, we don't have any way of knowing for sure the validity of anything we read if we weren't there to experience it ourselves. I guess it all really comes down to "What am I willing to accept as valid for me?" And that's a very personal decision. And now, while I'm at it I will try to answer some of Colleen's questions too... Okay, "on what basis do they [Unity] select the portions of Jesus' teachings that they espouse?" I would say maybe personal choice? I mean, just like any other teacher, a Unity teacher/minister would choose a topic that they wanted to discuss and then research various sources, including the Bible, to see what they could find to shed light on that subject. As I said, it's not about absolute "literalism", so there is a lot more freedom to say, "This is what this means to me, this is how it speaks to me." There is definitely a belief in the importance of going directly to the Source, to God, in prayer and meditation, and trusting God to bring us the guidance we need. And there is very strong emphasis on the reliability of God to do this. Trust God, turn it over to God, and rest assured that the answers will come. I don't think this is too much different from many other denominations. Authority... Yes, I have a BIG problem with that concept, and as a result of my SDA training, I am very reluctant to accept anyone's word as MY authority. I have come to believe that there is a reliable source of guidance that we all have access to, and this is not people, other "authorities" outside ourselves. This is where the SDAs have gotten into trouble. Now, maybe some people are more comfortable with a "holy book" as an authority, but I'm not comfortable with that because I know that all those books were, after all, written by human beings. So, no, I don't feel inclined to automatically accept anyone's word, whether from a book, a vision, a sermon, etc. And, yes, that's a pretty scary place to be in, because it does place a pretty big responsibility on us to have faith in God to really give us the answers we need. And that's hard to do. Anyway, it was for me, because, I never trusted God. I never liked God. I was scared to death of God. But, I don't see God in the same way anymore, and that has made all the difference. I can see where someone might be a bit nervous about me saying, 'I receive my guidance directly from God,' and I surely wouldn't ask or expect anyone to take my word as valid for their own life. But, I guess really, a lot of folks are probably in Unity because of the emphasis on trusting God and going to God for all their guidance. Where does the Bible come into all this?? Honestly, probably not as high a priority as for some other denominations. I would say that the personal "relationship" so-to-speak, is a higher priority. That's why they so much emphasize the importance of prayer and meditation. Sometimes to the exclusion of things that I've always prefered like "scientific-type" proof, reading, etc. Which, of course, I'm sure we can all agree is not very much use when it comes to faith, things of a spiritual nature. It's all very much a personal choice. Ultimately, we all have to make that choice of what to accept as our authority, unless we want to just let others make it for us. And I just can't do that any more. Not at this point in my life. So, I guess if that sounds like the bottom line is human, then that might trouble some people. I don't see it that way, I think that makes the bottom line very much God. But, that's just how I see it. Difficult as it is to face, there is no way yet to test faith scientifically. That's part of the definition of faith. It's not about proof. I certainly don't dismiss the Bible, I just don't view it in quite the same way that some people do. I view it as a demonstration of the sincere attempt of the people who were writing it to try to understand their world, and their purpose in it. To try to understand who and what God is, and to try to find purpose in an oftentimes difficult and confusing world. Some of the Bible, of course, is very inspiring and one could say "divinely inspired." Other parts, well let's just say, they were doing the best they could. And again, it comes back to faith: What does a person decide to believe about the Bible? Because we can't really "KNOW" in any concrete way, we just have to have faith. That's the hard part, as I think most people would agree. The "spark of divinity" in each person? Yeah, that's a toughie. Because some people can seem like there's just not one good cell in their whole body. And that's one thing I've been struggling with lately, to accept that everyone, even the most seemingly bad, obnoxious, irritating or evil-seeming person is MORE than what we can see. Because everyone is a child of God, we all have that potential, no matter what we decide to do with it. But I'm finding it is helping me to deal with difficult people to try to remember this, even when they are not demonstrating it. And again, it's true, there is no proof of this, any more than there is actual proof that we are evil at the core. That, once again, is a matter of faith. And it's a matter of whether we choose to believe in a good Universe, or a bad Universe, a good God, or a bad God, the authority of a person, book, church, etc. You said, "Jesus is a singularity because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He alone was born with a 'living spirit'." That's interesting--I had never heard that particular concept. I don't know that I would agree--I think we are all conceived of the "Holy Spirit." Does that sound blasphemous? I don't mean it to be. But all are manifestations of God, creations of God... we just don't live up to our potential in the way that Jesus did. And that is why he is held up as the ultimate example for us. I would have to say that I differ from your explanation about the "living spirit" in that I view human beings as already having that spirit indwelling, as it is our source and our very life, but we do have to become aware of it, and embrace it and recognize it, and until we do that we can view ourselves as "separate" from God. But, of course, we are never really separate from God. And I do fully agree with you that that awareness, that realization that we are one with God, and that God will never abandon us, is a life-changing experience. It has changed my life in ways I could never have imagined. Always before, in Adventism, as you say, we were taught that we were "inherently bad," and that is so very difficult to overcome. And yes, Unity has helped me for the very first time to see myself as worthy, of value, a work-in-progress that Spirit would never, could never abandon, because of God's very nature. If we are able to leave behind this sense of total worthlessness, and instead see ourselves as having the potential because of our oneness with God, to deal with anything that life throws our way, that is when we begin to really know our true power, that indwelling Spirit. I'm not too hung up on the whole idea of "We're not 'perfect'; therefore, we are inherently flawed." I just think that the human experience is about growth and learning. I wouldn't know how to define 'perfection' anyway. It would be so different for each person. I don't deny that Christianity changes people, just as other belief systems can change people, including Unity. And that is, of course, as you say, the power of the indwelling God at work. You are so right to say, "Ask God to reveal the truth." Things didn't really start happening for me until I did that very thing. It was very scary. And I had to come to a place where I really did believe in a God who was trustworthy and had my best interest at heart. That is the most wonderful part of this. God really does care about me. I really do matter. I am not just "dirt" as one nice little SDA lady said we all are. I'm sorry, I guess I did run on a bit too long, but I get so excited when I get on this subject because I have seen such a profound change in my own life (as well as others) since I have been freed from the yoke I wore for so long. As we say in Unity: God is good----ALL THE TIME!!!! Blessings to all, Joyce | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Joyce, Unity will help you only for a time, sooner or later the newness of Unity will disappear. I will pray for you. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1174 Registered: 7-2003  |
Joyce, thank you for your reply it helps me understand your position. As I thought through your reply it struck me that the only way we know anything at all about Jesus of Nazareth, his actions, and his parables is because his closest friends and associates recorded what he did and said. Jesus said and did a lot of truly outrageous things, things that even made his closest friends uncomfortable and yet they wrote them down anyway. For instance, Jesusí closest male companion once heard Jesus say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". Statements like these defined Jesusí spiritual views, his teaching, his actions, and his parables. Based on his radical statements as recorded by close friends I think we're forced to conclude one of three things about Jesus as a person; 1) he was insane and should have been locked up, 2) he was a charlatan who was passing himself off to gullible people as something he was not, or 3) he was exactly who and what he said he was. Joyce, based upon what you know of Jesus of Nazareth through the historical records that are available to you, which of these three options do think is true of Jesus? Chris | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 780 Registered: 1-2003 |
Joyce, just because we don't all agree here doesn't mean we don't want you here. Please stay and lets hash all this out. And you are right...God is good!-All the time. We sing a praise song about that at our church. God bless you. | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello Chris, and thanks for your thoughtful response. Based on what was written about Jesus, I think that his followers (the ones who wrote the gospels and other books of the N.T.) thought he was divine in some special and unique way. What do I think? I think he was definitely a revolutionary, ahead of his time in many of his ideas. I think he presented a new way of viewing God--as a loving and ever-present personal and spiritual God. I think he was very much a first century Jewish man, who was very dissatisfied with the situation that his people were in (i.e., "enslaved" and controlled by the Romans, in a very harsh and miserable time.) And he was not afraid to speak out, do whatever he could personally to help--his people, or any other person who was downtrodden and suffering. His compassion and willingness to risk his own safety for what he believed in, I would say, were what defined him best. And, of course, as is often the case with such individuals, he paid the ultimate price for standing up for his principles and beliefs. I doubt that I could do the same. I don't feel that, just because certain claims are made for Jesus in the Bible, we can draw any conclusions with certainty regarding what Jesus himself thought his mission was. I think all we can really assume is that the writers of those books are trying to convey what Christians of their time and their congregations believed about Jesus. Remember, Jesus himself left no writings. All he left was a legacy, a devoted following of people who have left us their beliefs about him. That's why, for me, it's so difficult to say "this or that is absolutely true." I wasn't there and I just don't know. Hope this answers you question. Joyce | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2006 |
Then Christ was an invention of his first disciples or an insane, that is what I infer from your last post Joyce. Read the next bible verses and tell me what they mean for you. 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:37-39 (King James Version) (millions of people from all parts of the world knows by living experience what is the meaning of these verses) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1176 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joyce, thank you very much for you response. I do appreciate your honesty in your response. One of the things that I so dearly love about the Christian faith is that it is intellectually satisfying. Although the Christian faith is experiential, it is also rationale. It holds up well under theological, philosophical, and intellectual scrutiny. As someone who highly values intellectual consistency Iím having some trouble with the Unitarian position. The Unitarian position seems to be: 1) Unitarianism is consistent with what Jesus taught. 2) No one really knows what Jesus taught. These two statements are logical contradictions. Compounding the logical fallacy is the assertion, by at least some Unitarian congregations, that Unitarianism is ìChristianî. ìChristianî (Christianos in the Greek) means ìfollowers of the Messiahî. One cannot separate the idea of a Messiah from the need for salvation from sin. The Messiah is the one who saves people from their sins. The Unitarian position seems to be: 1) Humans are basically good and each person inherently has divine goodness in them. 2) Because humans are inherently good or divine they cannot be inherently sinful. 3) Because humans are not inherently sinful they do not require salvation from their sin. 4) Unitarians are Christians (which by definition of the word means followers of the Messiah who came to save from sin). The final statement seems to be a logical contradiction of the first three statements. Again, I do not find this very intellectually satisfying. Joyce, in the search for consistency, let me ask you a question. If we are all divine, why do we act so badly? Iím not just talking about the horrendous things you hear everyday on the news that people do (although I would include those), but Iím also talking about the ìlittle thingsî that you and I and those we know do nearly every day. Chris | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Justdodie, I am sad to see so many, who were in the SDA church, precive God as that big red neck in the sky. I never precived him that way, in fact I was'nt looking for God back in 1980, he came to me in a most revealing way. Joyse I have some questions about the Unity church 1.Is this spark of divinity the same as "the higher self". 2.Do they teach any form of reincarnation? 3. Is evil and death a non reality? 4.Is God the life force in all of nature? 5.Is God a non person of universal conscienceness or energy? 6.If you boiled it all down, does Unity teach that you are your own saviour? If all or most of these questions is yes, then you are attending a NEW AGE church. I have read your posts and understand the path you have taken.In this world choosing a spiritual path, for some folks, is like going to the store and selecting a package of bacon, digging through all the packages looking for the one that looks better then the rest. One last question if I may, and if you think it is to personal, please dont respond to it. When you meditate to the point of stillness, do you precive a voise and or imagery from a spirit other then your own? There is a Spirit of truth and a spirit of error. I pray that Jesus will show you the differance. Joyce, thank you for your open mindedness. For me, I was sitting on the couch one Saterday morning and I heard a voise say "read the bible". The next Saterday the same thing happened "read the bible" and this really got my attention. This was the begining of my personal relationship with Jesus that changed my life. Yes I have had boughts of depression lasting for months, and Jesus spoke to me one day and said," Pat, you dont have to preform to please me because there is an incorruptable seed in you and that seed is me". Consider these words. ............Brix | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello again, everyone, So many questions, I'm not sure where to start. Let me start at the top and work my way down. First to Rafael_r, In the verses you quoted (John 7:37-39)it seems to me that the writer of this text is saying that Jesus was telling the people, 'come to me and I will show you how you too can be filled with this same Spirit (of God) that I am.' Next, Chris, There seems to be some confusion that I need to clear up first: I attend a Unity church, not Unitarian. There is quite a big difference. I don't know a lot about the Unitarians, just that they are a very liberal organization who place much of their emphasis on tolerance and social justice. I think they are also quite accepting of a great variety of religions beliefs and practices, and don't define themselves as Christian per se. In referring to people in Unity churches, we say "Unity Students" which sounds rather cumbersome I know, but there you have it. I will continue, however, on the assumption that your questions about "Unitarians" are actually in reference to my church, Unity. First, "1) UNITARIANISM IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT JESUS TAUGHT." Yes, absolutely, Unity follows the teachings of Jesus and views him as having been the ultimate example of a person fully immersed in and cognizant of who he was: a manifestation of God. "2) NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT. " No, Unity does not say that we can't know what Jesus taught. They consider the Bible to present a rather compelling picture of what Jesus taught, what he practiced, and why people followed him. That was me saying, I can never know absolutely for sure that I "know" about something I didn't experience myself. So, we have to decide for ourselves if we want to follow any one person, book or church, and if so, to what degree---absolutely, partly, use our own discretion, etc. It's a rather strange concept to anyone raised in an atmosphere where it was dictated to us that there was only one proper and acceptable way to believe, that there were books already written that we must follow to the letter, and that we weren't allowed to use our own judgement in anything, but rather we must follow these "authorities." And it took me a long time to feel comfortable knowing that, as a human being it is my right and it is my duty to myself, to make these decisions FOR MYSELF, rather than accepting unquestioningly the dictates of someone outside myself. Next, "1) HUMANS ARE BASICALLY GOOD AND EACH PERSON INHERENTLY HAS DIVINE GOODNESS IN THEM" Unity does not teach a concept of "original sin", i.e. a human nature that is already condemned and "lost" at the moment of our birth, hence requiring "salvation" by a "savior". Neither do they claim that human beings are "perfect", since clearly that is not the case. We, as human beings, are spiritual beings, on a spiritual journey. Yes, some do better than others, some don't seem to manifest any evidence of that "spark of divinity" at all. That does not mean it's not in there. This is the difficult part of Christianity--remembering this about our fellow human beings, and trying to remember to see them as God sees them. But taking this step of faith is what makes all the difference. If we can see that difficult individual as a "child of God" also, then at our deepest levels, that makes us the same. This is the point at which we are able to truly "love our neighbors as ourselves"--when we no longer see them as "other", "different", "weird", "bad". "2) BECAUSE HUMANS ARE INHERENTLY GOOD OR DIVINE THEY CANNOT BE INHERENTLY SINFUL." I think I pretty much covered this one in answering question #1. But to re-iterate, Unity's teachings are not a claim to perfection, or inability to be "sinful," if by sinful you mean making mistakes, making bad choices, behaving poorly, treating others badly, or just generally screwing up your life or the lives of others. All human beings do these things to one degree or another. I guess the question really is whether or not you want to define this as "sin", or if perhaps there is another definition of sin that I'm not getting. I know I always felt that "sin" as I was taught, meant being inherently "unacceptable, unworthy, undeserving, just plain bad" somehow. This never made much sense to me. "3) BECAUSE HUMANS ARE NOT INHERENTLY SINFUL THEY DO NOT REQUIRE SALVATION FROM THEIR SIN" Again, no, Unity is not saying that there aren't people in great need of being "saved" from an empty, confused or unsatisfying life they may be living, and the Unity way attempts to provide guidance to a person in seeking this closer walk with God that will provide the changes they need in their lives. But salvation, just because we are inherently "unacceptable" to God, no, I doubt there would be very many Unity students who would believe that. "4) 'UNITARIANS' ARE CHRISTIANS (WHICH BY DEFINITION OF THE WORD MEANS FOLLOWERS OF THE MESSIAH WHO CAME TO SAVE FROM SIN)" Here we have a semantics problem--if you define Christian as meaning "someone who believes in original sin and the need for "salvation" from this inherent "badness", no by that definition, I wouldn't say Unity is Christian. But, if you define Christian as choosing Jesus, his life and teachings, as the guiding basis for life decisions, then yes, Unity is Christian. And, this is precisely how they define it. So, I guess the answer would have to be "that depends..." Lastly, " IF WE ARE ALL DIVINE, WHY DO WE ACT SO BADLY? " That's simple: we're human. We do things out of ignorance, fear, self-protection. That's where we are right now. It's all about learning. Hopefully, as we go along we learn, and are able to become better people. The goal is to continue growing and learning. It's a journey. That's the way I see it. Now, on to Brix and your questions, "1.IS THIS SPARK OF DIVINITY THE SAME AS 'THE HIGHER SELF'." Yes, I would say it's the same concept. "2.DO THEY TEACH ANY FORM OF REINCARNATION?" It is not taught. Some believe in it, some don't--it's a personal choice. "3. IS EVIL AND DEATH A NON REALITY?" Yes, there is only the "perception" of evil. And, yes, they do teach that we continue to exist in some form after death. "4.IS GOD THE LIFE FORCE IN ALL OF NATURE?" Yes, God is the Life Force of all that is. "5.IS GOD A NON PERSON OF UNIVERSAL CONSCIENCENESS OR ENERGY?" Yes, God is Spirit, and universal. "6.IF YOU BOILED IT ALL DOWN, DOES UNITY TEACH THAT YOU ARE YOUR OWN SAVIOUR? Well, Unity doesn't really teach a need for a savior in the same sense as traditional Christianity, but they do teach that God is the Source of life, of power, and can fulfill our every need. This Source is available to all. No, Unity definitely is not "New Age." Unity is "New Thought", a movement that began back in the mid 1800s and produced several separate denominations that exist to this day. New Age is a much more recent movement, that is more eclectic, more loosely organized, and includes a much wider range of beliefs and practices, although there are some similarities, such as meditation. When I meditate do I hear a voice or see imagery? Sorry, no, I don't. I'm afraid I'm one of those who just finds meditation to be a wonderfully relaxing experience wherein I can find relief from the hustle-bustle of the world. Sometimes I reach the point of "not thinking" (but usually at the point I just fall asleep!), and sometimes my thoughts roam to various topics. But mostly I consider it an experience of just quietly sitting and experiencing the presence of God. And again, no big "ecstatic experience." Just peace and calm and stillness. Oh dear, it looks like I've run long again with all this. Again, I hope I've answered everyone's questions. If any of this is too disturbing to everyone, please say so, and I will go back to quietly lurking. I don't want to "make waves." Joyce | ||
| Brix Registered user Username: Brix Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2006 |
Justdotie, Thanks for such a quick response. I didnt realise that there were so many questions asked of you,until I read your last post. I personally have no problems with the context of our discussion, its a non adverserial debate so to speak about what we think and why.I think its intersting to discuss our views even when we dont agree, do you agree. Fee free to ask questions of me. I have done my share of research of the New Age, and you are right about, there is quite a diversity and practises inclusive with in it. Im my oppinion , from the answers you gave to my questions, Unity has some of the basic core beliefs of the New Age philosiphy. About the Q. on meditation. Some of the people Ive met who practiced it, did. Thanks for shareing the answer. Talk at you later........BRIX | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1177 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joyce, You have my sincerest apologies for misidentifying the Unity Church as ìUnitarianî. In asking my questions I was doing my best to summarize the information in your posts related to the Unity Churchís beliefs, but I used the wrong organizationís name. Again, you have my apologies for my faux pas. I am still having trouble understanding something. If we all have a spark of divinity in us, how could our mere human self so easily override our divine goodness? Chris | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2006 |
Chris, that is a great question that I may bring up with our Spiritual Leader as a possible topic for further study. My simple answer to that would be, it depends on where our focus is: if our focus is on God, on Goodness, then that is what will be manifest in our life. If we focus on negative thought and expectation, if we have a negative outlook and belief system, then that is what will show up. Divine Law simply mirrors back to us what we give out. And until we can begin to see that this is really true, we may tend to hang onto our negative outlook and false beliefs because that is all we know. In a very simplistic way, you could call it "the power of positive thinking." It is the principle of "free will" at work that allows us to make choices, good or bad. But as to the reason WHY---again, I would have to say, ignorance---we just don't know any better. We have to learn. I do know that, the more I put this into practice, the more I see it working in my life. And as long as I am progressing, I know I am on the right path. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3621 Registered: 12-2003  |
Joyce, I have some questions as well. What do you understand the signficance of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus to be, or do you believe in those things? If Jesus was our example instead our Substitute, how does Unity explain statements of Jesus such as Luke 46-49: "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalm. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." How do you identify or explain Jesus' Father? Where dos the idea come from that Jesus was our example, and if example was His primary purpose, what did His statements about His disciples being "witnesses of these things", preaching repentance and forgiveness in His name, making disciples and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20 really mean? Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Joyce, I, too, appreciate you explaining your beliefs further, for us to understand where you are coming from. I don't think you, personally, are really offending anyone. I hope you give what we post some time and thought. We certainly do not desire to drive you away to lurking again or away completely. You are a precious person. True Christians don't go around looking at people as weird, scum, different, and less than us. I think we would rather be like 'the good Samartian', helping, healing and connecting; not the pharisee and priest, who just walked by the hurting man, thinking they wre too good. I've had some random thoughts, reading all the posts today. Point three, you listed, in Unity and your last post is the (or one of) main practice and philosophy of Wicca--Witchcraft (and Kenneth Copeland/'Word of Faith', BTW)--our thoughts and words creating a new reality, negative or positive. I do not have a 'divine spark' within myself, as I learned of in the past; I know, now, I have Christ *himself* within me. I learned who Jesus was by reading his *own* words (in red), including where he said he was the "I Am", soveriegn God, to the Jews. Once, when I was online dating, a person asked me, "What would your closest freinds say about you?" It was an excellant question to get to know someone. My closest friends know me better than anyone on the planet, even people, who see me everyday. Why else do future employers and *courts* ask for 'character witnesses'? I have a relative, right now, who has the court asking for character witnesses for his trial. That court will take the witnesses seriously in what they say about the person on trial. I take seriously the Gospels, written by other people, about Jesus, as I read them for myself. If I still tried to live by the philosophy of your last post (and, I admit, it sounds lovely and loving), I would be no better off than I was in Adventism, for it all would still depend on me. And, sooner or later (I tried and saw this), there would come a day, when it didn't "work". Pragmatism only goes so far. I only go so far. then, life becomes unmanagable. The center doesn't hold becasue there is no Center...except for myself. If 'Relativism' is true, then we must go all the way with it. If one's truth is all truth for oneself, for every individual, and ok....then terrorists' truth, beliefs and philosophies are ok becasue it is their Truth. It's ok for them, thus ok for us, too. How can we condem it, even though they kill for their god? There is no end to it because there is no baseline. If there needs to be a baseline, whom decides the baseline? Fallible humanity? We have all stipulated here that even in the belief system with a diven spark, humanity does evil and wrong things. Whom is 'good enough' to make the perfect baseline? I am not. I've had some enemies that, like David in Psalms, I'd like God to wipe out... because they molested my son. As a 'mama bear' type, I can feel real, real mean. But, I don't act that way 'cause I know better. Why do I know better? I was raised with a baseline. Then I learned of Christ in me. Now, I see, live, know, feel him. Mentallly, verbally, and in my practical life, as Unity believes to do, as Jesus walked. Yet, I learned that he walked for me because I cannot be perfect like he was and, now, he continues to 'walk' within me because he is alive and lives there;giving me his perfect mind. Experientially, intellectually, spiritually...you name it, in any way, he is real. Reality. Every one of these as spiritual (religious) 'paths leading to God' *American* (and European) unity groups talk about, without teaching you everything-the history of--, believes in evil, deceiving spirits--Hinduism (one of Unity's points was Hindu/Eastern), all Easten philosophies, Wiccan, Muslim, Bhuddhism, etc.. How do you know--really know--which spirit is with you? Because it feels good? They all feel good at first. They all sound good at first. They all look good at first. And, my God, their music would make angels weep! How else could they decieve? How do you KNOW for sure, rock bottom certain? What if you are wrong? There are spirits. You were wrong before in Adventism or, at least, your parents were. They were sure and certain about their spirit. Wasn't their own truth right for them? If so, why did it hurt you so much? If not a spirit (you might argue), you are relying on your own mind; what is going to echo back from within its biologial, chemical neurons? What if some of those neurons and the micro connections get damaged someday? There are even sub-atomic particles involved in our brains, we know now. Brain waves can be changed by external means, to make us feel anything. What can you rely on for truth, really? 'New thought' is not new; it was another go 'round into Gnostism, re-packaged.(My grandma was into Unity). The New Age is not a new thing in this century. Madam Blatvatsky was the official 'mother of the New Age' in the late 1800's and her disciples brought it into the 20th centruy, and into the paradigm of society in the late last century. It is based in it's core on Eastern philosophyy and mediumship with spirits, called channeling nowadays. The group I was exposed to was pure 'New Age' (1981), but the term, itself, had not hit society, yet. All the practices were already being done for decades; it just was not mainstream popular, yet. New Age incorproates everything Wiccans--witches-- do, as well. Pantheism is one of their main philosophies. In many 'Unity' groups, churches, all that New aGe and Wiccan incorporates is there as well, only in differnt terminology. (Many people do not desire to be connected with 'witches', you know) So terms and phrases are changed, but the philosophies are the same...taught. Meditation of several sorts, TM--even as you describe it--is another common-denominator practice. I am not posting any of this to make you feel badly as a person, Joyce. I just hate it when I see people purposely (or not) misinformed into something, as I was. If someone is going to be 'in' something, I feel that they, at least, ought to know all the history and spirituality of it. What you are in goes back to pagan antiquty. It is the oldest 'religion' on earth, after Adam. Just with differnt names, diffused all over the place. I understand how you are feeling so joyful, but I do not believe that your contentment will last. And there be spirits around. I must, I have to be, frank, even if it sounds offensive. I fear for you and others, even if that sounds patronizing. I wish you could see our smiles and eyes and love for you in person.  The real Jeus Christ was the only new thing to come along. Jesus was either a liar, lunatic or Lord God; going by what he claimed about himself in scripture. 'C. S. Lewis, who was a professor at Cambridge University and once an agnostic, understood this trifold issue clearly. He writes: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: `I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." Then Lewis adds: "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." Therefore this is Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Investigate and find the truth, you can empirically. And you can be be greatly assisted by the One you are seeking to discover the truth about.' Sincerely with Christ's love, Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh, Colleen, you do ask the hard questions, don't you? But that's good. I don't often get the chance to share my ideas with others in this way and this has been very helpful to me. I have given some thought to the crucifixion.... As I mentioned in a previous post, the "vicarious atonement" doctrine was always very troubling to me and a significant issue in my being unable to believe in Christianity as it was taught to me. The idea of a "loving" God condemning us to hell for being less than perfect was appalling to me, and the idea of this God asking his son to sacrifice himself to somehow "pay for" the shortcomings and/or evils of humanity..... that to me is just not a loving God. I know, I've gone round and round with various denominations of Christians on this one, so I have to respectfully say, if someone is okay with this, then I'm happy for them, but it's not for me. I know that Jesus was hideously and undeservedly murdered for living out what he knew to be his truth, and of course I agree that this was awful. I'm sure no feeling person could be unmoved by this story. But, I personally think that the doctrine of the crucifixion as "atonement for sin" was what his followers felt was the best explanation for what for them was a devastating event. This doesn't necessarily mean that they were correct. And it doesn't necessarily mean that we today can or must find this explanation relevant for our own lives. I find much more meaning in the stories that are told about the LIFE of Jesus than the story of his DEATH. I know that Jesus is described in the Bible as referring to God as his father, just as many people today do. It doesn't work for me because I have issues with the implications of "father." (That DEFINITELY is a story best left alone for now!) I also know the story of his supernatural birth and the belief that he was fathered by the Holy Spirit, rather than having a human father. These all fall within the realm of "faith" and we each individually have to decide for ourselves whether we believe them literally or not. I don't by any means discount the possibility of miracles, events that can't be explained by any conventional or scientific knowledge. But, if a person chooses not to accept these events literally, I don't think that it detracts from the essence of who Jesus was, or in any way changes the fact that we are all of God. These are the sorts of things that are left more for the individual to decide in Unity, and that's why I am so comfortable there. We are not required to accept a list of doctrines, but rather we are encouraged to seek out our own truths for ourselves, in a way that is suitable to each individual. As you can see, there is a lot more room for interpretation and differering opinion, but there is also a lot more freedom to experience our spiritual journey in a personal and unique way, without the fear of condemnation if we think too differently. What does "HIS [JESUS'] STATEMENTS ABOUT HIS DISCIPLES BEING "WITNESSES OF THESE THINGS", PREACHING REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS IN HIS NAME, MAKING DISCIPLES AND BAPTIZING IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT (MATTHEW 28:19-20 REALLY MEAN? To me?? To me it means simply that Jesus no doubt exhorted his followers to go out and spread his teachings and initiate new believers. Thanks again for all your thought-provoking quesions. I will post separately to respond to some questions from Cathy2. Joyce | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Cathy2, Thanks for responding. I knew I shouldn't have used that word "relativism", but I just couldn't think of a better one at the time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that whatever a person does is all right, even murderers and terrorists and so forth. Far from it. I just meant that for me, knowing that somewhere deep inside even the most terrible person, where perhaps they have closed it off and are not even aware of it, is a divine core, a true essence that is part of every person, and it is only through knowing this that we are able to love even people who seem unlovable, as Jesus did. Because, isn't that the essence of Christianity, the ultimate goal, whether we are able to obtain it or not--to live in a state of love toward all persons? This, I think, is what Jesus taught. To live every moment in the awareness of our oneness with God, who is Love. In Unity we refer to it as the Christ within, and I think that this would be the same as your reference to Christ within yourself, wouldn't it? You're absolutely right, the third Unity principle is very similar to Wicca: whatever you give out comes back to you three-fold (in Wicca), or in Unity it is referred to as the law of attraction; in traditional Christianity, "you reap what you sow". I think you will find that most religions teach this principle, and that it proves itself repeatedly in our daily lives. When you say, "IF I STILL TRIED TO LIVE BY THE PHILOSOPHY OF YOUR LAST POST..... I WOULD BE NO BETTER OFF THAN I WAS IN ADVENTISM, FOR IT ALL WOULD STILL DEPEND ON ME", I'm not certain exactly what you're referring to, but certainly I didn't mean to imply that everything depends on me. There isn't any such thing as "just me" because I don't exist outside of God...and I don't have to go it alone. That's the beauty of God---we are not alone, and we never have to come up with all the answers. God is always right there, as close as our own breath, ready to give us the answers, before we even have a need. I didn't know this for years. I just knew that IF God was what the SDAs taught and I was condemned to death just for being human (no matter how good or bad I might be), and IF I had to believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of this God's son to somehow cancel out this condemnation, I might as well resign myself to hell because I just couldn't serve this kind of God, not even in order to avoid hell. And truthfully, I always figured that, even if I pretended to, surely a God who knew everything, would see right through me and I'd be sent to hell anyway. I did try, over and over, I really tried to believe in this God, but ultimately, I just could not. I could not believe that "HE" was good or fair or right or deserving of my love and loyalty, and I also knew that I could not do something that was so abhorrent to me, even under threat of death. So I dealt with this situation, way back, when I first started studying intensely, and resigned myself to the fact that if this did indeed turn out to be true, then I would just go to hell. There was no other way. Once I was able to accept this, then and only then, was I able to begin searching without fear for answers. Eventually, through much searching and studying and through my eventual openness to receive guidance, I did come to believe that there was some sort of Source or God, vastly different than what I had been taught, and slowly I came to be more trusting and open to it, as I became aware of some of these different ways of conceiving of God. As you can well imagine, I was not about to just turn myself over to any old thing that I read or heard about. I had the fear too well engrained in me by my SDA upbringing to be trusting of something just because somebody told me about it. In fact, my very center was FEAR for many, many years. No, ma'am, if it sounded to good to be true, it probably was---and was probably "of the devil" to boot! Where you mention several world religions and talk about spirits, I'm not sure I understand your reference exactly. I don't know enough about those religions to say what they believe. I do know that Unity does not teach of the existence of "deceiving spirits", just wrong thinking. You say, "YOU WERE WRONG BEFORE IN ADVENTISM OR, AT LEAST, YOUR PARENTS WERE. THEY WERE SURE AND CERTAIN ABOUT THEIR SPIRIT. WASN'T THEIR OWN TRUTH RIGHT FOR THEM? IF SO, WHY DID IT HURT YOU SO MUCH?" This is a very good point. The reason it was so hurtful for me was that it wasn't suitable for me. Human beings are different, our minds and personalities are different, and the same philosophy does not work for everyone. That's why when an unsuitable teaching is forced on a person, it can be very hurtful and harmful for them, and that's why I don't believe in "one true way" and I DON'T believe that MY way is for everyone. I just know it's for me, and that is enough. You are right--"New Thought" is not new. That is just a name that got tacked onto a particular group of similar teachings at a time when they were new. And even then, yes, some of their ideas were adopted from older teachings, just as some of Christianity was adopted from the Jewish culture from which it sprang and some from the pagan culture that also surrounded it. New philosophies don't just spring up overnight from nothing. They evolve and grow and change and develop as a result of a new way of looking at older ideas. People develop new ways to look at the world as they obtain new information and as their world and their needs change. I appreciate your concern for me. I know from having been there, what concerns many Christians have for those who are outside the "accepted" fold. This is the reason I don't normally talk too much to conservative Christians, because I don't want to upset them and I don't want to get myself embroiled in what will always ultimately have to end in an "agree-to-disagree" stand-off. I really appreciate everyone here who has shown the interest in my thoughts and their willingness to listen. It has also been quite good for me to be able to ponder and clarify for myself some of my ideas that were perhaps still a bit vague. Thanks everyone, Joyce | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Joyce, Thank you for your questions and responses. I truly appreciate them and am interested. I understand about feeling leery with Christans. There are some types of Christians I feel leery with becasue I do not believe *all* as they do nor *do* what they do. You have shown a lot of courage in posting, openly sharing your feelings and views. You must feel a bit vulnerable, at times. Please, if there is a way we can help you to not feel vulnerable with us, let us know (if you do feel that way; you might not). I agree with the loving others very much and that this is what a Christan is even commanded to do in 1 John. "Love one another" and "Love your neighbor", etc.. I see this, in my own life, as living the Gospel. I think we disagree about 'Christ in us'--within-- in *how* it happens. Innately or by one's own power or by the regeneration in us, by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ because of his death and resurrection. After knowing the reality of regeneration vs. the other philosophies, I see, understand and feel a stark difference within myself. A transformation, which there was no way, at all, I could have had within myself before. There is a distinct before and after, for myself. Where you are, I was at, then, later, I became where I am now, in Christ (through the means I explained). (Since these are spiritual subjects, they are hard to define in words, as you know.) Yes, I am familiar with the verses, which sound like the law of attraction and, even, Karma. But, following the entire theme of all scripture (OT and NT), Christ's message in it, his words and the Apostle's do not correlate with Eastern nor Western pagan philosophies and practices. For in other places, these are directly refuted; by Jesus' own words, as well. So, yes, we can influence results in a cause and effect manner, by word and deed, creating *consequences* (good or bad) in our own lives and other's (like our children's), but we are forbidden to use Craft in order to change reality for our own Will, even if we think it is for the good. There is a fine line of understanding here and it is hard to explain. Yes, there are similarities in many things among all the religions, but they are not the Hinge Point of The Difference. The hinge point is Which Jesus? Which Jesus (in understanding) defines how one understands all the other things. Teacher, Avatar, Ambassador, Spirit or Messiah? Well, Joyce, I'm not out to correct your thinking, as Unity is, but from experience, I, unfortunately, know spirits. My concern is real from my heart and it has nothing to do with 'Fundamental/Conservative Christians' nor, if it crossed your mind, the 'Deliverance Ministries'. I have nothing to do with 'Fundamental Christianity'. I do not believe as they do, theologically, and I have nothing to do with 'Deliverance' as it is popular and taught today. All I can say, is that deceiving spirits are real and dangerous. (Adventism was grounded in one, too) Joyce, my heart goes out to you so much. I have felt everything you wrote about Adventism, in the past and, someitmes, still do. All of it. The SDA god is a god straight from Satan and hell. There is no loving grace in that god and never will be. That god and those teachings have twisted up scripture, harmed so many and seperated so many from the loving true God; I have been so angry about that. Not just for myself and family, but for people like you, too. And other religions, who religiously batter their people. I had a Mormon friend, who left, believed that all religions were the same--had to be good enough for some god--then became Agnostic for life. He found no beauty in God, at all, because of lies. Joyce, you haven't given up on God. So many ex-SDA's have. We don't have an 'accepted fold' here. We are only accepted. And among ourselves, we don't always agree. What is your favorite example from Jesus? Do you have a favorite verse? What does the title 'Christ' mean to you, personally? How are you healing from the SDA carnage? (Most of us here can relate to that need to heal) I am truly asking, not setting word traps. I loathe that, when people have done it to me. (My SDA brother loves to try it with me; trapping me in some Adventist thing. I don't 'play'.) If you will, here is a verse, which helps me, when I have hurt at wrongs: ~Jesus has suffered for you, to comfort your life, in his dying, so that all may live~ 1 Peter I do understand where you are coming from, Joyce, more than I can put into words. You bring back many memories to me. Jesus Christ be with you~ Cathy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2006 |
Joyce, I feel that I need to appologise to you, if I have come across as assuming anything about you and your beliefs, sounding arrogant, patronizing like some Christans can (we have all had that at us from Adventism and kind of cringe at the possiblity; sometimes, from other types of Christians, too)or lecturing at you. I never meant to sound, feel or be any of those ways. Truly. (I truly doubt anyone else has, either) It is so easy to write and connect, when persons are on the same page. But in cyberspace, even then, this medium is not the best to converse, especially, in a struggle to understand each other. And I am not very good at the medium as others are, in applying all modes of genuine expression, like in person. I am a teacher, so that comes across too much, when it should not. It is not about you, if I sound direct and opinionated all the time. I do not expect you to take my opinions and beliefs. If you do not, I still care about you. I am sharing, as you are. For some reason, you touched my heart in sharing your story. Like you have expressed concern about "making waves" to others and such, I do not desire to drive you away from here. I pray that you do not find reason for more bitterness here. Adventism can create a cringing within us about so many things, unique to each individual, and, also, universal to us all. It can create fears, where no fear need be, even of God. Sometimes, these feelings last for years and pop up when we least expect them. Being an ex-SDA is a very unique place of being in society. If for nothing else, this forum has that in common with you, as a 'people'. We cannot deny our love for Christ and our faith, but it is because of that we love you, as we have been so beloved. As you are beloved of God. Anyone, who calls themselves a Christian, in your life or past, but has not love, knows not Christ, no matter how much they talk theology. (1 Corinthians 13) You are as free to ask pointed questions of us, Joyce, as we/I have asked of you. We might still ask hard questions, but they do not invalidate, make untrue, that we care who you are. Is there anything we could pray for you about? Sincerely, Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1178 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joyce, Thank you again for your sincere answer regarding the concept of a "spark of divinity" in each human. It light of the all the evil that people do (both "big" things and the "small" ones) it seems more reasonable to me to say that in our natural state humans are not inherently good. That's not to say humans don't do good things at certain points in time. It's a statement of observation that people uniformly do wrong and the world is full of evil. This suggests to me a problem at the very core of humanity, a problem that has not been overcome by positive thinking. It also suggests to me that evil is real and that it violates a sense of morality that nearly every society in all times has shared. This brings me to another question about the Unity view of God. I am going to start with an assumption, please correct me if Iím wrong. I am going to assume that you, like most people, believe that human government has both a right and duty to have laws against such things as perjury, theft, assault, molestation, rape, and murder. I am also going to assume that you believe human government has a right and a duty to enforce those laws and to penalize those who break the laws. Most people believe that the existence of law and law enforcement is one of the hall marks of a just society. Few would want to exist in a society without law. I ask the following questions because they get to the very heart of who Jesus is and what He did at the cross. But before discussing Godís mercy and grace, I need to understand if Unity views God as a just God. Much depends on whether God is a just or unjust God. Would God be a just God if He had no moral law? Would God be a just God if He condoned perjury, theft, assault, molestation, rape, murder, etc.?î Chris | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2006 |
Cathy2, Thank you so much, but you have said nothing that requires an apology, at least in my mind. You are "long-winded" in your writings, like I am, and you have a lot to say, but that's good. It helps me to better understand exactly where you're coming from too. I just appreciate everyone being so patient and polite to me, because I know how very different my beliefs are from some of yours. And yes, it is very different from what I have encountered in the past from some Christians. I know that everyone has their own personal beliefs and I can really appreciate that so much more, now that I too have my own. For many years I just tried to follow what others told me to do. Then for many more years, I depleted all my energy on trying to "defy", in order to try to break free. But that brought me no peace because I was angry all the time and I still had no sense of purpose or connection, not with people and not with God. Those two things I have now found, with a group of like-minded, kind-hearted people who, like me, are on a journey of searching. That is why I decided to make a commitment to my current church--I knew that I needed that connection, that sense of community. And just to clarify, because some people might think that my church is "OUT TO CORRECT [MY] THINKING" as you mentioned. They refer to bad situations and evil and sickness and so forth as being caused by 'wrong thinking', but they never try to tell a person exactly what 'right thinking' might be. What I like most of all about this church (and again, this is not for everyone) is that they're stated purpose is to guide people in their spiritual journey so that they can discover on their own what 'right thinking is,' and make up their own minds. There are absolutely NO doctrines beyond the five general principles regarding 1) God's Goodness, 2) our oneness with God, 3) the power of our thoughts, 4) the power of prayer, and the fact that 5)we must practice these principles in order for them to work. That's it. Everything else is up to the individual to decide: do I believe this? do I believe that? And the emphasis is on the knowing that Spirit is ALWAYS there as our guiding Source. Also, to clarify, I chose this church because I had already formed many of my ideas by the time I got there (through reading), and I knew as soon as I tried it that it was for me. I knew that I would not be inundated with a bunch of concepts that I would be expected to accept and change myself. I have tried a number of churches over the years, but they always wanted to insist on certain beliefs that I couldn't accept, and I just couldn't feel comfortable with that. You said, "ADVENTISM CAN CREATE A CRINGING WITHIN US...." Ah, I do know that feeling well. It has permeated my whole life, the way I approach people and handle day-to-day life. I used to just think I was shy or timid, but even as I gradually overcame the shyness and became able to talk to people more easily, still that fear, anger and intimidation were deep inside me (and sometimes not so deep!) and I had to finally allow it to come out so I could confront it and say, "Yes, this was caused by SDAism, this is where my very spirit was beaten down so that I could not even think of myself as a full-fledged person." They (SDAs) may mean well, but ah the hurt they inflict... Those still in it, who still believe in it.... they will never know. I know that my father (who is still very much a staunch Adventist) has no idea why all his children "left the fold," and I'm sure it hurts him, and that he thinks we are all going to hell, but I have tried (with disastrous results) to talk to him. But he is firm: "You know the Truth!" And that, in his mind, is that!! So, we "make nice" and I chat with him, but I will never be able to talk to him about my deepest feelings for this reason. Thank God, I have my siblings to talk to, and also now I have re-connected with another member of my family who is now also out of SDAism. Having someone to talk to who understands because she's been there is probably what has helped me the most in my healing. My siblings are more in the "I just don't want to think about it" frame of mind, so they can take only so much of my rantings before their eyes glaze over. LOL! Here is one Bible verse that I particularly like, 2Timothy 1:7: "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." It describes where I am finally living my life now, in that awareness of who I am, and of who I am not. A child of God, powerful, loving and of sound mind--not weak and frightened and pathetic and "lower than dirt." And, knowing it's not a "sin" to acknowledge this! I will ponder some of your other points and questions and respond at another time. I appreciate your offer to pray for me. Right now, I have some minor health issues, and of course the ongoing need to progress in my spiritual journey and experiencing the Presence of God. Thank you so much for your kind words. Joyce |
