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Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 111
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen - I fit your category perfectly - so I feel qualified to talk. <grin>.

One can certainly tell "truth" nicely and not offend on purpose. The idea that any religion intentionally and satanically misguides people is a stretch. You know that every pastor, every Sabbath School leader and every member does not intentionally and satanically mislead people.

The difficulty we have here is that this religion has things that they teach that are off the correct track. We should pointedly point these things out. But - again - personally - I do not think that Jesus or God is glorified when we start finger pointing and saying that this person or leader is satanic.

My point is exactly the same as yours - Jesus should be liefted up and pulling others down does not do that.
Bill
Freeindeed
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Username: Freeindeed

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone. I'd like to speak to this as one who is still journeying out. First of all, don't stop discussing. The truth is still communicated through this thread even though there are varying opinions and beliefs with regards to EGW and SDAism. And that truth is that the system is wrong because it has beliefs that go against what the Bible teaches. It doesn't matter if EGW or anyone else in Adventism is posessed or just misguided, because it's the truth that sets you free. The fact is we (SDA/EGW) are wrong. Determining the degree is a fun discussion, but pure speculation. In the end we're still wrong.

Several years ago, when I first started starting to search for answers to my suspicions that something was not right in Adventism, I turned to the internet and started reading. What I read churned my stomach and I literally felt sick. I couldn't believe what people were saying about my church. I felt defensive and I took it personally because I am a member of what they were describing. At first I just counted it as persecution because we had the "truth" and EGW. We were warned about this.

But I couldn't stop reading. Some sites were more credible than others and you don't have to be a smart person to figure that out. I couldn't stop because the legitimate questions I had before being "offended" by what I read had not been resolved in my mind.

The truth can hurt. Several times, after realizing that I had been deceived by Adventism on some point, I was scared to learn more so I would stop my search and stop asking questions. But they would always creep back in and I had to know the truth, so the digging resumed, and I learned more than I wanted to know.

Eventually it led from searching the internet to searching the Bible. New covenant vs. old covenant, slave woman vs. free woman, the law as a tutor, the law as the ministration of death, the fading glory, the veil, etc., all began making sense for the first time. How could I not have seen it before through all of those theology classes and Greek, and NT and OT studies? I knew it was the Holy Spirit and I knew that I could trust the Bible and the Bible only.

There's so much more, but HERE'S MY POINT! It all began by being offended by what people (maybe it was some of you) were saying about my church. I was offended! Angry! But it took that for me to really dig in search for truth. And still it is my main objective to find out the truth.

Don't stop discussing because it might repel someone (Jesus did it all the time to the Pharisees). Let the Bible say what it says and lift up Jesus. The Holy Spirit will sort it out in our hearts and minds and will convict us on the truth.

I still have many questions and I'm sure there's a lot of SDA baggage to be unpacked. But I see Jesus and know that I am in his care because he lives in me. He won't let me go.

Thank you to all of you.

Freeindeed
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks freeindeed for your testimony. God is still sovereign, and the truth will set us free.

Bill,
I am not sure whether you understood my post above correctly. I still equate Adventism with Mormonism, Benny Hinn, JW's etc. I only agreed that sometimes we need to be careful with our terminology when we try to witness to our SDA friends.

Stan
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 114
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 3:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan - I understood you <g>. I think that the Adventist church has MANY things wrong with it. If they had left EGW where and when she should have been left - they could have done a good job - they do not need the 2300 day prophecy etc to be doing God's work.

As I see it there is no perfect church/theology - they all (from MY standpoint) have things that I find untenable, (see other threads for my current works in progress in thought trains - (hell, etc)) and at the moment I am a cultural Adventist. It is an easy society for me - most of my friends are there.

I do need to watch and make sure that I do not get sucked back into it just because it is easy. I believe that my thought processes have taken me far enough away theologically as to make it more difficult to go back.

I will say that Randy Roberts has preached an 8 part sermon series lately on Galations that was very good. If you get a chance to hear it I would be interested in your thoughts. He said from the pulpit - with no qualifiers that "Jesus is enough".

Thanks for listening,
Bill
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 783
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leah Jordache is my sister-in-law's sister. She is a really sweet and sincere person.
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 654
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freeindeed,
Thank you for your testimony. I am praying you are a SDA pastor I know. Most likely you are not. I have a few dear friends (SDA pastors) who are wonderful grace-filled "Jesus-freaks" and I keep praying they will be led a step further as it is obvious God is doing in your life. God is using you to show me He is working in His own time!

Jesus is what it is all about!
Denise
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1331
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if one (or some) individuals within the religion say "Jesus is enough", the religion as a whole, and the underlying undercurrent teaching that is sometimes disguised from the surface observer is that he is not. The SDAs I know firmly believe if you worship God on Sunday, you have the mark of the beast...even if you have asked Christ in to your life as savior...that's irrelevant ultimately. They firmly believe they can never leave the SDA church, or even attend a non-SDA church and keep their salvation. My son's father specifically called Jesus the "milk" of the gospel, saying "eventually you have to get to the meat". Can you imagine believeing there are "bigger and better things" than Jesus in the "gospel" and to the Christian life?? I have spoken to his sister-in-law at some length and she point blank told me B could never leave the adventist church. It would not be allowed and "I" would not be supported in such a move. Several of his aunts mentioned to me the fact I was of a "different religion". At least from his extended family and many friends I've had the time to hear their opinion, we are not all "Christians" of the same caliber. There is no bridge across lines in their perspective, and in significant part because of their attitude, there is none for me either.

I think it was Chris some time ago who said the adventism in California is different than adventism in the mid-west. I don't know, I only know the message I've gotten from the SDAs I know. And frankly, they think I'm lead by a demonic spirit. When I told B that I was attending church where the Spirit lead me, his question was "which spirit leads you?" He went on to explain why I just "think" I'm lead by God and am really lead by Satan "dressed" as an "angel of light".

Those are merely my experiences. They are not meant to replace your own, but neither can they be dismissed as non-normative, since I hear similar experiences from others.

It's a very difficult challenge ... because I tend to think MOST leaders (even those I disagree with) believe what they're saying. Personal integrity is usually not the issue....but whether they're teachings are right/in line with scripture. I greatly admire the family values I see in mormon families. I think they are in line with scripture in many ways....BUT they don't teach the gospel and whatever value there is in other things, without that, it just doesn't matter what else is right.

Same could be said of adventism. To the extent that the religion does not teach the true gospel, the areas in which they could be labeled as "correct" have little value to me. Romans 14 begins a discussion of disputable matters, and upon disputable matters we are not to judge. I don't think scripture ever says not to judge whether or not someone is preaching the gospel.
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 116
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martin Luther was a Catholic - he started his reformation from the inside - he tilted against GREAT odds - no?

In the medical profession there is great resistance to physician order entry (computerized) amongst the older physicians - but younger computer literate physicians are more prone to accept and even like this option.

As younger adventists hear good preaching on the correct topics I am optimistic that a general swing can be made towards Jesus is Enough. Now will it happen in MY lifetime <g> - not sure - the difficulty is that the General Conference Session that just passed re-emphacised EGW and the "need" to get her books out. Wow - the old guard will not go quietly into that dark night...

I was in a "progressive" church until they got a new pastor and he essentially asked that I leave. (I have been asked to leave choirs before (but that is a whole different story and for different reasons - I can't sing...)).

Thanks
Bill
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3634
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I've listened to Randy's sermons on Galatians. (I haven't heard his most recent one; somehow a technical glitch happened, and the church uploaded his sermon from a week or two ago in place of the recent one online.) He did say, "Jesus is enough," but then he veered away as the series progressed. While he never withdrew that statement, he clouded it by not preaching what the text actually said.

He went on to ask how we should live. His response was, we follow Jesus' example. He asked how we should worship, and his response wa that we worship as Jesus did; He went to the synagogue every Sabbath. The fact is, Jesus was born of a woman under law. His life cannot be our example. We are now under the law of Christóthe completed, fulfilled law of Christ. Jesus did not come to be our example; He came to be our substitute. Jesus, the Living Torah or Living Word, took a perfectly law-keeping life to the cross. When He arose from death, He himself replaced the law as our standard of faith and practice. The Law of Christ is clearly delineated in the entire text of the NT. Jesus life as well as his death were substitutes for ours.

When Randy preached on Gal. 4:8-11, where Paul is asking why the Galatians are turning back to weak and miserable principles and becoming enslaved again, observing days and months and seasons and years, he preached a very good sermon about not thinking we must go back to works once we've experienced grace.

The problem was that he didn't preach about what the text is actually saying. An SDA family member was actually in church the day Randy preached this sermon (and, lest anyone think he might just somehow have missed the point, I'll qualify this by saying he's a bright, analytical, electrical engineer, and he doesn't miss the details) even said later that while the sermon was good, it didn't address what the text was saying.

The text in Galatians was specifically talking about embracing the law (yes, The Law ) with its Sabbath regulations. Paul is calling the Law "weak and miserable principles", and he's saying it enslaves us.

Randy didn't go there. He'll preach "grace", but he diverts the focus before actually saying what Paul is saying about the law.

Now, I have no doubt Randy knows what the text is saying. But if he were to truly preach what Paul is saying, he would stand in danger of losing the support of a huge percentage of the congregation and also his own employment.

Preaching "grace," however, without also preaching the need for acknowledging one's innate sin and the need for repentance is not really preaching the grace of the gospel. True grace is grace because our sins are paid for and we are forgiven. Grace is not just the assurance that God loves and saves us and pardons us. No, sin must be acknowledged, and we do not receive grace without repentance.

The law was the means God designed to make us recognize sin, to increase sin in our lives, and to drive us to repentance. Once we recognize our deep unworthinss, then we can understand the miracle of the cross and the reality that Jesus replaces the law in the lives of those born from above. Grace outside a context of repentance and rebirth is not grace.

I want to add that I believe God is using Randy Roberts, and I also believe God is working in Randy. I do pray for him, that he will have the courage to speak the word of God from Scripture clearly and with full integrity, regardless of the consequences. I have a great empathy for the challenge he faces.

Colleen
Catalyst
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Username: Catalyst

Post Number: 117
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen - so we know of at least ONE pastor in the SDA church that you would confirm is not satanic <g>
Sorry - I could not resist.
Bill
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 456
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freeindeed

If you feel comfortable I'd love for you to email me so I can ask some questions "off line". If your uncomfortable just ignore this post. :-)

richard

rtruitt@mac.com

IF you email me make sure there is something in the subject line to catch my eye so I won't "junk" it. :-)


Freeindeed
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Username: Freeindeed

Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, I sent an email to you. Let me know if it doesn't come through.

Freeindeed
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 458
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freeindeed,

Thanks for the email and I'm trying to find the time to write a coherent email back. This is the end of the trimester in my classroom and parent/teacher conferences have started. The reward will be a week off for spring break in two weeks. :-)

I'm sure I'm in the wrong thread :-) but before I forget I want to ask for the prayers of all those here for a study group of about 8-10 people at my church. We are studying the New vs: Old Covenant after church each week. For those who don't know I attend an SDA church. Our one goal is to seek His face and follow where He leads.

(cut and will paste into the Prayer request thread)

Thanks for your email and hope to chat more later.

Richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3636
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praying now, Richard.

Colleen
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 460
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen,

For those old enough to remember back to the early days of Disneyland my life is now an "E ticket". In fact a bunch of us just took a drop on the "matterhorn". :-) For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about I'm "sorry". :-)

richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Randyg
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Username: Randyg

Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

You make an interesting observation when you suggested that "MOST leaders believe what they are saying".

Over the last several months I have been in correspondence with several Adventist Pastors from the local church to the GC level, and my impression is beginning to change. Like you I thought they must all believe all the fundamental beliefs or else why would they be Adventist Pastors. Many have suggested to me that they recognize that there are major problems with Ellen White, and the Investigative Judgement. Some have even suggested that the Sabbath might not be a salvation issue. They realize that Adventism has "Majored in Minors" and has failed to emphasize the centrality of the Gospel. Many have noted that the grassroot Adventists and many in leadership are not willing to change anything.

How do they deal with the integrity and hypocrisy issues? Many find a niche in denominational employment where they do not have to profess, preach, or teach the areas that they can no longer support with scripture. Many feel that they can create a climate for change with their influence from the inside. And of course their livelihood, and ability to support their families depends on not rocking the boat, and maintaining the status quo. As one said to me "we all know what happened to Des Ford".

At some point many of the pastors recognize that while they can avoid preaching Ellen White or the IJ doctrines through niche or support ministries, they are in effect endorsing and validating these doctrines albeit indirectly by remaining Adventist. Some can deal with this dissonence for a time, and others cannot. One influential Adventist Pastor stated to me "Maybe our children--if they are still in the church--will inherit a church more in harmony with Christ and His teachings than is today's Adventist church".

I can understand their reticence to change as I would be at a complete and utter loss if I had to leave my profession after 8 years of study and 20 years of practice. I can fully appreciate the familial and relational challenges and trauma that presents. My heart goes out to them.

They are in my Prayers,

Randy
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1332
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy, I understand what you and they are saying, and to some degree almost the reasoning, but I have to go back and say what if they were in the word-faith movement or some other spiritually questionable "faith"? I am certain it is more complex than anyone can explain in a simple post, but at some level isn't it also a cop out? I don't work in the field I have a masters in. I have a job and am able to take care of my family anyway. And I don't know how any "change" can happen if no one is willing to open their mouth and confront the real truth. I have never walked their shoes and I know nothing first hand or personally, HOWEVER, I know Christ calls us to leave everything to follow him. Sometimes, I can even grumble quite unattractively at what I've been asked to accept, but I get up and keep walking just the same sometimes having no real clue why other than I just know it's the "right" thing to do. God takes my honesty in my fears and my disappointments and earnestness to "do the right thing" and carries me through, probably in spite of myself. It's a different challenge, I realize, but those words I hate to hear "God never gives more than we can handle..." are true nonetheless.

Do they really think another generation of delusion is going to straighten out all that is wrong? Or is it not going to just create more just like the generation before? Change happens when bold people are willing to step out in faith and do the right thing and the Spirit of God is leading the effort. I would be able to comprehend "God has lead me to this action" rather than "we know what happened to Des Ford". By the second statement, their actions are based upon fear....and that's just not of God. It is sure easy for me to sit here and say those things with nothing to lose in this particular challenge. But I hope someone would challenge me in my comfort zone when fear is the greatest motivating factor. That sounds like a faith issue, if ever I heard one. In the meantime, let's keep the blinders on to the deception that is being propogated by our ambivalence. Isn't that to some degree what the men in the 1919 Conference meeting did by sealing their notes for 50 years? Protect themselves and hope another generation would deal with it? And how many more people have been deceived BECAUSE OF their silence?

I do pray the religion will fail as it is today, and realize at the same time a lot of people would be hurt in such a struggle. I wonder how Luther counted the cost in his day ... or some of the other great reformers. They weren't void of feelings and fears, so I'm sure there had to be some degree of conflict. But they stood their ground and are now considered spiritual giants. I pray for such spiritual giants in the Adventist church, because we do all know what happens when you go against the status quo. :-( But I don't see overarching change happening without something big, like things we've seen in past times or even in our own with the World Wide church of God.

I really don't lack compassion. But fear is not a good motivator in this circumstance in my opinion.
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 401
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right on, Melissa. Sooner or later, I believe honest people will leave, but the timing isn't usually instantaneous. Besides, God may very well have a purpose for the timing of someone leaving, being years instead of immediate. However, for those who think the SDA church might eventually change during some future generation, I don't believe any changes will matter until if and when the SDA church can renounce Ellen White as a false prophet. That's what everything boils down to; all SDA-distinctive doctrine was validated, if not started, by EGW, and most SDA understanding of even common doctrine is affected in some way by her writings.

(Message edited by Raven on March 28, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3639
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa and Raven, I totally agree with you. Again I am reminded of Greg Taylor's poignant statement, "I now realize that I [as a 'gospel-oriented' Adventist pastor] was part of the problem."

As you said, Raven, the timing is in God's hands, but ultimately it boils down to whether or not a person is willing to be deeply truthful. And it really does come to rest on the issue of Ellen White. If they are willing to call her a false prophet, the subsequent steps become clear, one at a time. As long as they redefine her or explain her in other terms, she remains a blinder to truth.

Your statement, Raven, "most SDA understanding of even common doctrine is affected in some way by her writings," is true and profound. I was having an email "conversation" with a realtively new former recently, and we discussed the fact that Adventism's theological understandings are just quarter of a turn "off". They are close enough to authentic so as not arouse concern at a distance. If you follow them to their conclusions, however, you find yourself far from Biblical Christianity.

Most of us don't begin to see how far off Adventism is on the common doctrines until we're willing to call Ellen a false prophet and to face the reality of the new covenant. Then, over time, God keeps revealing the amazing reality of Himself and His word.

Colleen
Freeindeed
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Username: Freeindeed

Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can remember conversations my parents had when I was a kid and someone would "fall away from the truth". They said that once an Adventist gives up one "truth" many more seem to fall like dominos. In their minds this meant that they went progressively farther from God.

It is true that the beliefs do fall like dominos. The key is in discovering the truth about EGW. Once the truth is known about her, then everything she wrote about is suspect at best. In my mind, you throw everything she wrote out and live by the Bible alone. Even if she were a prophet, the Bible contains everything humanity needs to know concerning how the gift of salvation is given and received. No extra information is needed, especially from a false prophet.

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