| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1187 Registered: 7-2003  |
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| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2413 Registered: 3-2004  |
In our church we are doing 40 days of community, leading up to resurrection Sunday. The book is one by Rick Warren. The last chapter, mentions Sabbath and tithe paying. I cannot find the book right now to give you the name of it. When I was looking over the 6 lessons, right after I got the book, I bristled. He does not say as out right things about sabbath, as he does above, but the implication is there. The same for the tithing. I am going to write a letter to our minister about those two items. Please pray for me. Diana | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1188 Registered: 7-2003 |
Diana, it's the same book you are referencing, but I misstated the page number. My post should say, "pg. 152". When you find your book look on pg. 152, Day 36 and you'll see the quote I posted. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3641 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well, somehow this emphasis on the Sabbath and also on tithing makes a lot of things about Rick Warren's focus make more sense. Either we live in the new covenant, obedient to the Spirit, or we live, as Greg Taylor puts it, in spiritual bigamy, unable to experience the reality of resting in Christ's finished work. I believe the ultimate "test" will not be a day but whether we are going to cast all our faith and trust on the Lord Jesus or whether we are going to take control of our righteousness by living a "righteous lifestyle." I just answered a letter today in which a never-been-SDA asked me if I thought there weren't some things about Adventism, minus the IJ and the seventh-day Sabath, of course, that the rest of Christianity could learn from. I replied that I didn't think so. I suggested that the only way to achieve a truly righteous life was by focusing on Jesus and living by the Spirit. Anything else might look good on the outside, but inside is anxiety and compulsive behavior. I also suggested that, in spite of admirable lifestyle recommendations, Adventism only draws people into bondage. Frankly, I feel that old sinking feeling as I read that quote, Chris. A lot of people will respond because this recommendation comes from Rick Warren. Diana, praying for you. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1466 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana, I'm sorry to hear what your church is doing. However, I am not trying to discourage you from going to what otherwise seems like a good church for you. Unfortunately, many pastors have been innocently drawn into this 40 days of purpose phenomenom, which is a fad that has lasted for quite some time now. I find it very strange however, that they are using Rick Warren to lead them into the Easter season. I just believe your church is missing out on an opportunity to really get into the Gospel of John, or one of the other gospels, and really get into the Word of God instead of relying on Rick Warren's out of context proof texting using highly dubious paraphrases such as the CEV (as Chris quoted from above), and the Message Bible. But again, I want to be clear, that this by itself is not a reason to not go to an otherwise good church. Rick Warren's views on the Sabbath unfortunately reflect his southern Baptist roots. These same views are also taught by many other great teachers such as R.C. Sproul, who I respect greatly, but I believe they are just wrong on this issue. They have not yet discovered New Covenant theology. The major difference from Warren and Sproul and SDA theology, is that traditional SDAs believe Sabbath is a test of salvation. However, that Warren quote above is one of the strongest statements I have seen in awhile, and I am quite surprised by it. You sure do think of Adventism when you read that quote. I have probably spent too much time on this forum talking about Rick Warren. We started last May, and then have had several threads come up on this topic. However, this topic will not go away. As we have discussed previously, and most of us seem to agree that Warren in his books is very fond of quoting scripture out of context (that sounds familiar to SDA experience). He is very fond of using highly questionable paraphrases and loose translations. Some of the paraphrases he uses are shockingly close to the quality of Adventism's "Clear Word Bible", as I will post links below that will at least make you think twice about this. He uses the version Chris referred to above called the Contemporary English Version. Here is a link that describes this Bible as a kids Bible and for uneducated adults, written for a 4th grade level. www.bible-researcher.com/cev.html On this link is several illustrations of how this version diminishes a lot of important Bible truths. Another "Bible" that Warren loves to quote from is the "Message Bible". This Bible has some eerie similarities to the "Clear Word Bible", and you can see this here at www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/Message.html However, the real problems I have with Rick Warren are his statements last May 2005 where in a public forum he basically declared the Reformation of Martin Luther as irrelevant. He was quoted as saying that that Reformation was about CREEDS, and not DEEDS. He said what we need is a new Reformation that is based on good works. He has joined hands with the false gospel of Catholicism, and he has publicly endorsed the ministry of T.D. Jakes--and as Chris pointed out on his magnificent thread about the Trinity, Jakes teaches the heresy of Sabellianism, or modalism--which teaches that God manifests Himself at different phases and times, sometimes as the Father, and sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Spirit. This denial of the Trinity is a denial of Christianity, yet Warren supports this. John MacArthur is a teacher many of us on this forum respects highly. John read Dale Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ" and endorsed it enthusiastically. He agrees with Dale that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. I am reading another book by MacArthur called "Ashamed of the Gospel", and it was originally published in 1993, long before Rick Warren really became prominent. But how prophetic this book is. I am amazed that John called these trends in Christianity to water down the gospel even before they became fully realized. This book is must reading. It is shocking what he says at how far the evangelical church has drifted from its roots of solid Bible teaching. John's most recent book is called "Fools Gold", and one of his associate pastor has an article in there on the "Purpose Driven Life". It is made clear in that chapter that Warren is not heretical, but, by de-emphasizing solid expositional preaching for lighter feel-good topical sermons, this subtracts from what we are called to do in Christian ministry. One of MacArthur's associate pastors Phil Johnson did a seminar recently at Grace Community Church on the "Fad Driven Church", and here is an excellent review of this seminar by Tim Challies (the blog where the Sabbath discussion took place) www.challies.com/archives/001697.php I only present the material above for all of us to be informed of the trends in the evangelical world which are quite alarming. There are still many excellent Bible teaching churches out there who do expository teaching of the Word of God, and are faithful to the basic teachings of orthodox Christianity. Stan | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 147 Registered: 12-2004 |
Stan, Thank-you for your thoughts. You stated that Rick Warren's views on the Sabbath unfortunately reflect his Southern Baptist roots. These views are shared by others whom you respect, "but YOU believe they are just wrong on this subject." There is a great sense of freedom noted in that statement. A freedom we never felt comfortable enough to take while Adventists. It is so nice to be able to express our understanging without fear of recrimination, Most Christians can express varying interpretation and viewpoint on a broad number of disputable topic and still remain in fellowship. Most Adventist would not feel at all at ease with this scenerio. Thank-you for the input, Randy | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2006 |
If a christian flee from fornication and adultery, is he a legalist? Are we not called by God to live a righteous, pious and well oldered life for Christ's sake our savior? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1333 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, but if you recall the sermon on the mount, one of the differences in the Old and New covenants is a change in focus from outward behavior to the issues of the heart. When speaking about adultery, Jesus said not to lust. If one is not thinking inappropriate, lustful thoughts, fornication and adultery don't even come on the radar screen. Jesus said it is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, but what comes out because that reveals what is in his heart (my paraphrase). To me, merely changing behaviors does not address the ultimate issue which is the sin in our hearts. When one truly deals with the heart, the actions naturally change. Unfortunately, so many do seem focused on actions without addressing the heart issue. (Message edited by melissa on March 29, 2006) | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Melissa, I¥m talking about a christian man nor about a religious man. Yes we most abstain from lust in our heart and also abstain from the act of adultery or fornication. When a christian pay obedience to this command he is doing the will of God, not in order to win the salvation or to stablish his own righteousness but to glory of God and also not to sadden The Holly Spirit who dwell in him/her. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3644 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Rafael--but I'm wondering how you're seeing the law in this statement. Do you mean that the law informs us of God's intent, and then through the Spirit we honor Him by obeying? Or do you mean that the Holy Spirit Himself brings the moral requirement to our attention, and in obedience to Him we yield our "right" to self-indulgence to Him? It might seem like hair-splitting to make this distinction, but I believe it is an imperative distinction. Just this morning I was studying Romans 11:30 and looking up texts to shed light on just exactly HOW Israel's disobedience led to God's blessings on the Gentiles. Here's what I learned: Israel's spiritual advantage was an awareness of GUILT. Because of God's special revelation through the law, Israel alone understood the depravity of human nature (see Romans 3:19-20; 4:20). The Gentiles didn't have this revelation, and they didn't live with the knowledge of hopeless guilt awakened by the law's standards (Romans 5:13). The law, however, also offered hope. It condemned Israel to death for their guilt, but it offered hope for redemption through the shadows of the sacrifices and festivals. Israel, through practicing the law, became a "living metaphor" of hopeless humanity coming face-to-face with God's promises. What Israel did, however, was to embrace the law' commands and to fail to comprehend the promises. Israel demonstrated the impossibility of guilty humans keeping promises to God, and they demonstrated the universal response of guilty humans to grab onto laws to manage their behavior. The Gentiles, however, never had the law or the entire revelation of the Mosaic covenant foreshadowing salvation for hopeless sinners. Because Gentiles have believed God's promises by faith without help from the law's shadows, God has blessed them. As privileged Israel turned away, the Gentiles moved forward as God's church. Here's where the issue of the law as a guide to behavior comes in. Ephesians 3:10-11 says that "Now, through the church, the manifest wisdom of God sholud be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His eternal purpopse which he accomplished in Christ Jesus." Jesus ABOLISHED the law in His flesh at the cross (Eph 2;15). The "lawless" Gentiles who believed God's promises in Christ are now demonstrating to the universe the wisdom of God. The "lawful" Jews are partially hardened for a time. We cannot afford to return even for convenience to the law as any kind of standard for practice. If we do, we negate the entire work of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is enough. That's why, as Melissa pointed out, the issue is no longer about "adultery" or "stealing"; it is about hidden lust. The law has NO PLACE in the life and practice of a Christ-follower living in the completed work of Jesus and by the law of the Spirit. The New Testament clearly outlines all practical behavioral concerns of a Christian. We have no need to return to the law for guidance. That's a human, natural-flesh tendency. Rather, we submit to Jesus and bow before His relentless call to submit our desires and dreams and lusts and "rights" to Him so He can live His life through us. Colleen | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2006 |
Listening and Doing 19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. 22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing itóhe will be blessed in what he does. James 1:19-25 (New International Version) 8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, James 2:8-12 (New International Version) 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, 2To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. Warning Against False Teachers of the Law 3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's workówhich is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. 8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurersóand for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. The Lord's Grace to Paul 12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinnersóof whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:1-20 (New International Version) Making One's Calling and Election Sure 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Prophecy of Scripture 12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. 2 Peter 1:3-15 (New International Version) Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sinó 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Slaves to Righteousness 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeyówhether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:1-23 (New International Version) All these verses talk about a life of obidience as a result of our faith in the gospel. A holy life is our standard. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2005 |
Are unbelievers still under the law? Or another way of asking, are believers the only ones for which the law was fulfilled? Is it accepting Jesus as our atonement that makes us free from the condemnation of the law, but the law is still there and therefore brings death to those who haven't accepted Him? Or is the law abolished for everyone, and completely gone? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1003 Registered: 7-2004 |
Good question. The law remains, but it's power to condemn is broken for those who accept the blood of Jesus as full payment for their sins, all of them. Those who hold the law foremost will be blinded to the power and comfort of Christ's atonement on their behalf. The law still does not exist (as far as they are aware) for those who never had it in the first place. They are under the law of the heart (Holy Spirit) and they, too, must accept that power in their lives which will allow them to shun evil. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Belvalew, What do you mean by "The law still does not exist (as far as they are aware) for those who never had it in the first place"? Who are these people? | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2001 |
I can testify to the power of the Holy Spirit in my life. When I was an Adventist, I tried to keep the 10 commandments, I tried to keep the sabbath, the results were failure, depression and hatred toward ayone who I thought was doing it better than I was. The last time I visited a SDA church they were very busy in Sabbath School discussing the remnant of the remnant. (They were sure there were people in the church who were not as good at they were and would not be saved) The experiance I have had since I let it all go and let Jesus is a gratitude for what Jesus did for me, a quick convition when I have wronged another (gossip is my main problem). My outlook acknowledges God's hand in everything. In my opinion, there is nothing so freeing as being free to focus on others istead of constantly worrying if I am keeping the rules. It gives me the freedom to love others as my salvation is secure in Jesus and not wrapped up in the law. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2416 Registered: 3-2004 |
Stan, As I read the book for the 40 days, the first thing that crossed my mind was "proof texts" as I read the Bible texts. I do want to write a letter to my pastor about that book, but I have misplaced it and cannot find it. I may have accidently thrown it away. I know God took me to that church and I have asked Him if He wants me to stay. If not where does He want me to go. I am going to visit other Christian churches and just let God lead. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3647 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rafael, I agree with your post above. The one fine point (really not worth "arguing" over) is the question of what we're being obedient to. When we are in Christ, we're really not obeying the law. We're obeying the Lord Jesus, because He has become the Living Law in us through His Spirit. The reason I mention this at all is that as long as we hold to the idea that the law is what we are obedient to when we are in Christ, then the law retains some authority over us. Jesus completely replaced the law as our authority. If we hold that the law has the authority to inform our behavior, then the law also has the authority to demand a day of rest. We really can't get around that. Either we are in Christ and completely accountable to Him, or we are in a state of semi-freedom/bondage in which we still struggle with the law's requirements. People who have never "had" the Sabbath don't always see the problem with the law being used as a standard for behavior because they've never really grappled with the issue of a day. But this focus really is a problem. Obedience, however, is essentialóbut we are obeying the law of Christ instead of the written law. The New Covenant completely replaced the Old. Grace, I'm not trying to answer for Belva, but my understanding of the role of the law now is this. The law still spells out the sinful nature of humanity and pronounces the curse for disobedience. But now, instead of bringing "converts" into the law, as the Gentiles were brought into Israel and circumcised before Jesus came, we now teach them the truth about their natural state of sinfulness and their inherent condemnation. To be sure, the law helps us teach this truth, although Romans is equally clear about it. Now, however, we point people to Jesus who has become sin and become the curse for us, and we invite them to accept Him and His finished work on their behalf. Sometimes it is helpful to teach people with no spiritual background about the Old Testament before teaching them about Jesus, just to give them a big perspective. The movei "Ee-Taow" shows a missionary using this approach with a completely isolated, pagan tribe in New Guinea. It's a powerful approach that gives them an understanding of the signficance of Jesus when He finally came. The law still exists as a shadow of Jesus, and it would still increase sin in anyone who tried to follow it. The law further serves a vital purpose in that it provides our historic evidence that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Only Jesus actually fulfilled the shadows of the law; that's one way we know that He's not an imposter. It's just not necessary to bring people into the law before coming into Christ. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 453 Registered: 7-2004  |
I wonder how long it will be before some SDAs read Rick Warren's emphasis on the Sabbath and decide that this is the big step towards ushering in the Sunday laws. If the biggest author in Christianity is promoting the teaching, it must mean that a Sunday law is just around the corner. I'll keep checking my email for that to make the rounds. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1469 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana, You are very discerning. But this comes about because you spent at least one year reading nothing but the Bible, and not listening to other voices. The Holy Spirit is leading you into truth. This is why, when you read Rick Warren, you realize that there is something not quite right. He, as you say, uses the proof text method. I think it was Ric_b who pointed out on the PDL thread last fall, how Warren uses scripture out of context, and he uses one out of fifteen different Bible versions--whatever one makes the point he wants to make. This is what SDAs and other false religions do. I can remember as an SDA, there was a method of marking the Bible with a string of proof texts that would prove the point. The only problem was, they would leave out certain key texts that would prove the opposite point. I still say, Diana, that just because a church sponsors a 40 day program (that sounds like a works and law based program to me) based on Rick Warren's teaching is not necessarily a reason to look for another church. However, I am confident that the Spirit of God will lead you to where you are supposed to be. It may even be true, that at one point in a person's spiritual life, God wants you in a particular place, but then he may lead to another church where God's Word is taught more faithfully. Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 254 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, Thanks for the link to the Tom Chailles blog of Phil Johnson's talk on fads and lack of discernment in the body of Christ. What an amazing and timely piece that was.
Wow!!! Pull no punches, Phil! I've been listening to his sermons on Galatians and they've been awesome. Hard to believe that those sermons/talks are given in SUNDAY SCHOOL at Grace Community then you get John Mac Arthur for church. What a treat that would be. Also, you mentioned prooftexting and loose Biblical translations. I came across this quote from one of the Reformed greats that I think you'll like if you haven't already heard it:
(Message edited by Heretic on March 29, 2006) |
