| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1464 Registered: 3-2005 |
Everyone above has made excellent points. Historically, it has been proven that false gospels fostered by established organizations cannot be reformed. Martin Luther intended to reform Catholicism, as Melissa pointed out, and it was futile--RCC is one of the largest cult-like organizations there are with a faith plus works system that is unreformable. SDA is so similar to RCC in so many ways; papal authority and Ellen authority, both propagated by hierarchichal structures that are abusive. So therefore SDA is unreformable. The Word-faith movement Melissa mentioned is so caught up in its self deceit, and love for money and power, that to reform it would take away its reason to exist. Adventism was built on a false premise--that they were raised up by God on a prophetic 2300 day timetable that commenced in 1844--this premise is one of the most easy to disprove just by Hebrews 9 alone. They have built this huge, very impressive organization on a doctrine which directly contradicts scripture. But think how easy it would be to build a large organization by claiming that you are the last day true people of God, and you have special inside information given directly by God in vision to a last day prophet! I heard the late George Vandeman make the triumphant claim on his national TV show "It is Written", that SDAs are privileged with inside information--that no one else has! I am sure there are many true Christians among SDA pastors who know that what traditional SDA teaches is a lie. I have met some who had good motives for staying in, and when God led them, then they made their break and took other faithful with them. Some stay because of financial security. But, I believe a large number are just plain deceived, and the veil covers their spiritual eyes, and that veil will come off only if the Holy Spirit sovereignly acts to lift the veil. God changes individual lives. History has shown that He is not really interested in saving individual cult-like organizations and trying to reform them. I have yet to see one true example of a cult-like organization truly changing at its core doctrne and structure, yes sometimes there can be some superficial changes that look on the surface that way, and sometimes these organizations fool even good men such as Walter Martin, Barnhouse, and Hanegraaf. My prayer is that as many SDAs as possible hear the true gospel and repent--when that happens, then Adventism will be irrelevant to them and they will move on to much better things that God's true gospel of grace has to offer. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3640 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great post, Stan. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2414 Registered: 3-2004  |
I enjoyed reading this thread because the pastor that taught my son what the Bible really says, left the SDA church when he had only 2 years to retire. I respect him for that. He and his wife were not afraid. They trusted God to take care of them and he has. Each person is called out in God's time. God knows what is best for each individual. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 146 Registered: 12-2004 |
Good Evening All, Melissa, Raven, Colleen, Free, and Stan, thank-you for your insightful posts. All of you have hit several nails on the head. I appreciate your thoughts and your abilities to speak and define the problems so succinctly and clearly. Six weeks ago I lent a copy of Greg Taylor's book and a copy of Sydney Cleveland's Whitewashed to a questioning SDA patient of mine. Today she returned for a follow up visit with a new copy of each to return to me. She stated she ordered them for me because she had marked up with notes in the margins, and highlighter the books I had lent her. She was still fuming and shaking her head. Diana, you are right in that "each person is called out in God's time". Oh, to have patience like God. Thank-you all again for taking the time to share, Randy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2005  |
Melissa, I want to thank you stating that
Reading what you just said, I found the answer on my question about the will of God in my life. I prayed to know what to do in the issues concerning my relation with my church. Monday I have a conversation with one influent member of my church board, and she still thinks that I'm just upset with my church, and for this reason declined to drop my mebership. But all is because I have not take a public stand for everyone to know what I believe. I wanted to accomplish this goal through my resignation, but I think they are trying to evade the issues. Now I have been praying to know the will of God, and when I read what you said, I recognize that to remain silent is acting based on fear. Now it's clear to me what it is the will of God for me. Once I have something clear in my mind, I saw that the Lord works powerfully through me and guides me toward this goal. It's refreshing for me to discern the will of God, because I navigated through feelings of sadness, and grief. My son who almost 3 years old has a cold, and last two nights had 40 Celsius temperature, I slept very few hours. By the way, today is a great day for me, it's my birthday, I turned 31 years, and it's the first anniversary in freedom of the gospel! I like very much the southern gospel music promoted by the former Cathedrals quartet, and they have a song "I've just started living". It's a powerful song, and fits perfectly with what I'm feeling today. Praise the Lord, I've just started living!!! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 302 Registered: 5-2004 |
Congradulations Jacob! It's a powerful thing to know that God is leading you! While hard, these moments you are living in will be your "Exodus" story. Happy B-day too! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1468 Registered: 3-2005 |
Happy Birthday Jackob! Praying for you and your family, and hope your son is feeling better. God bless you. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3645 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, Happy Birthdy! And Happy freedom-day, too! Praise God He is giving you certainty and authority through His Spirit to stand for Him. The suffering and opposition we experience when we stand for "truth as it is in Jesus" is the equivalent of taking the arrows for Christ. Praise Him for His work in you, Jackob! With prayers for you and your family, Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Jackob, We share the same birthday! I turned 30 today. And, I too, in reflection of this last year (and decade for that matter), am filled with praise. And I'm excited for what God may reveal to me and do with my life this next decade! Happy Birthday Jackob! Grace | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 402 Registered: 7-2004  |
Happy Birthday, Jackob and Snowboardingmom! This is the day for birthdays! It's my m-i-l's birthday, and my dog's birthday. (My dog is named Raven.) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 643 Registered: 4-2000  |
Happy Birthday, Jackob! It is my understanding that the thirty-something generation leads other age groups in leaving Adventism today. Hopefully, your son is already feeling better. Children really get high temperatures fast. May God continue to abundantly bless your journey of faith and give you many more birthdays. By the way, is it really sinful to covet your age? (smile) Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3649 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey, Grace--happy birthday to you, too! What a year this has been for both of you! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks to all who congratulated me and happy birthday Grace! Well, Dennis, it's not sinful, it's longing for the uncorruptible life which will be ours after the second coming! My son is better, but still make high temperatures, when it's not expected. Esther, sometimes I re-read my posts here, and remember who I am now and who I was. My Exodus story is here and I'm praying that others will be blessed by it. Grace, sometimes I'm scared about what will bring the next decade. But if I was still an adventist I will be more fearful about the future, you know, the new pope, the mark of the beast. What a blessing to know that the end time will not bring a time without a Mediator! Colleen, are you remember your first year as a former? Can you share some parts of it, perhaps the issues which troubled you in the first months, or the entire year? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3655 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great question, Jackob. It's making me think... One of the hardest things during our first months was the unexpected attacks of fear that I was being deceived exactly as Ellen had predicted. I would have waves of guilt or panic and doubt wash over me. Always I would have to pray for truth and read Scripture to ground me in what I knew. Those paralyzing moments of fear and doubt would threaten to undo me! I finally realized they were spiritual attacks designed to keep me from taking hold of Jesus and casting myself fully on Him. Another thing was my trust in the full authenticity of the Bible. I struggled for a couple of years with believing that God literally inspired the NT writers to interpret the OT texts the ways they did, showing that they pointed toward Jesus and the gospel. I was so used to Ellen's dubious use of the Bible and Adventists' claim that her discrepancies and out-of-context interpretations were no different from the Bible writers' interpretations. It took a couple of years of persistent Bible study to begin to "see" that the NT writers really were inspired, and their interpretations completely hung together as a unified whole. I had to learn to pray that God would teach me truth and protect me from self-deception. Another struggle was whether the Bible was "all I needed". I believed that the Bible was good "as far as it went", but for my personal life I needed direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. After all, the Bible couldn't tell me what church to join or what job to accept, etc. To my surprise, I've been learning that God does inform my personal decisions, but it's by teaching me through the Bible to begin to "see" God's will from a Biblical perspective instead of from my mortal point of view. For example, while I have not ceased from praying for specific things, more and more I pray from Scripture. For example, instead of praying that my sons, for instance, might get into certain colleges or take certain majors or get into certain classes or activities that I think would be really good for them, I'm praying more that God will bring about what He knows will be for their ultimate good, that He will give them the Spirit of wisdom and revelation so they will know Him better, that He will heal their hearts and bring Godly friends and mentors into their lives, and do in them what He knows is necessary. This newer focus of seeking God's will has been coming about the more I have taken the Bible literally and at face value, praying to know God's will as I study. A huge struggle was the anger from family and the withdrawal of friends. Also, I struggled some with being a totally "new kid on the block" at a new church, unkown and unknowing. Perhaps the biggest overall struggle was learning to let go of what I naturally thought was the "smart" thing to do and to walk only through the doors God opened in front of me. Learning to let go of whether or not people understood me has been hard. Learning to have integrity before God and not to hold onto what I believe are my "Rights", allowing Him to take away from me the things He believes need to goówhether beliefs, pursuits, control--just letting God be God. Of course, the Sabbath--after believing that Sabbath could not be a new covenant requirement, it took us over two years to come to the place of deliberately "trampling" it. That was one of the biggest confirmations of God's presence that we had. We felt His peace and presence every single day in a much greater measure than we had ever experienced it before--even on Sabbaths. That presence has never gone away. Learning that God is sovereign was one of the biggest changes during my first couple of years, and that took a while to take shape. It was hard at first to admit that God was the ultimate value in the universe, and not my worth or successóand that I might lose things very dear to me if God saw that I needed to be brought to a place of trusting in Himóand that His name is blessed whether He gives or takes away. I'm still learning this! I believe that the thing that brought the most fundamental change and paradigm shift was admitting that the deception of Adventism had an evil source. The night our family prayed that God would remove the spirit of Adventism from our hearts and replace it with the Holy Spirit was the moment that marked freedom from all (and I do mean all!) of my emotional attachments and fears of what my SDA acquaintances would think of me. It removed all my curiosity and the pull to know what was going on, what I was "missing", and wanting not to be "shut out". That prayer marked, for Richard, the moment when he experienced the certainty that he was born again and his salvation was assured. That recognition and prayer were probably the most important acts of obedience to Jesus that we did outside the decision to leave the church and give up the Sabbath. As time passes, Adventism looks more and more cultic. It's hard to see it clearly when you're too near it. Conversely, as time passes, the Lord Jesus becomes more and more amazing and wonderful. He IS our great reward, and He is all we need. I praise Him and thank Him for calling me out of Adventism and for bringing to me Himself! I do want my life to be His and to honor Him. Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 149 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, Thank-you for sharing your testimony. It is exciting to hear how God has lead you. For those of us with "control" issues, accepting that God is sovereign in all things is a difficult concept to embrace. Realizing that I cannot orchestrate the spirituality of those around me has been hard. It has, and continues to be a steep learning curve. I have to let God be God, and pray that in some small way, those in my circle will see a reflection of Christianity that is authentic and appealing. Randy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2006 |
Colleen, I can relate to what you wrote about the struggles over EGW and the Bible. It was a process... I, too, love to pray scripture and believe that there is God's resurrection power in the Gospel Word. Not just for Eternity, but for the here and now, too. I believe that the entire Bible is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ,(as you bring out about the old and new covenants) and we are brought to the mind of Christ and his life in us through it. Months ago, I reaqd a poster on R/S, who said, "God help us, if all we have is scripture to rely on! [implying we need EGW to explain it]" I was shocked, stunned at such blatant invalidation of the Living Word of God!! I was heart & soul sickened! The deception is massive! But, thnking about it, it shows how far I (and most of you) have come because 20 years ago, I would have thought the same way. Deceived right out of the true life in The Word (become flesh). I am so grateful to be free; to freely depend on scripture alone, transforming my mind for understanding, then Christ-empowered livng. Cathy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1474 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Colleen, Randy, and Cathy for your perspectives. I agree. Stan | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2006 |
Cathy, the poster you're referring to was a Revelation Seminar poster? Is that what "R/S" refers to? Yes, thank you Colleen, Randy, and Cathy for sharing. I cannot totally relate yet. Freeindeed | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, you have indeed gave me a very good answer. I have a deep need to take the Bible at face value, to pray from scripture and know the will of God in my live. But what amazes me is the fact that you have struggled with the comparision between the interpretations of Ellen WHite and those of the writers of New Testament. I heard over and over again the same tape, that, if I will measure the NT writers with the same measure as Ellen White, I'll reject also their interpretation. I have some questions; What are the biblical proofs that the NT writers preserved the original intent and meaning of Old Testament? What are the proofs that their interpretation is not eisegesis, but only a development of the OT original message? Is there a difference between NT writers and EGW eisegesis? I have encounter the idea, from my memories Raymond Cottrell said it, that, because EGW is a prophet, she had a special insight of what the biblical texts means, and can reinterpret the Bible. It seems that adventist capitalize this and makes people afraid to leave, because, how can you contradict a inspired person? My only response until now is stating that the Bible is complete, and granted to every christian the right of being a priest, someone who has full access to the Holy of Holies through Christ and Holy Spirit. Because of this historical situation, because of what the New Covenant implies, every christian can judge for himself and test every teaching if it measures with the plain truth of the gospel. netween the believer and a Holy God is no more space for a prophet, because the Holy Spirit, God Himself dwells in the believer and guide him in the entire truth of the Biblie. I heard someone said that, because of spiritual gifts, we have been guided in the entire truth by Spirit of Prophecy. But this is not in the Bible! Bible said that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all the truth. How can we test the prophets if they are supposed to guide us in the entire truth? i believe this is one of the cultic deceptions and phobias which are instilled very deceptively into every adventist heart. This keeps them unde the bondage. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jackob - Re: God's will Very interesting topic. I think that you would agree with me that going AGAINST God's will is "sin" right? So obviously this is one reason that we want to "find God's will" in our lives. The question is that on any decision (like putting your pants on if God's will was to put your left leg in first and you put your right leg in first did you sin? I don't think so -) When I got out of school I thought about "fleecing" God to find out "His will" for where He wanted me to go - was it where they paid me the most so that I could donate the most to His church? or where the church was the smallest so that I could be the most involved? So the search for "God's will" for me has taken a very different turn - obviously once you have "sinned" and taken a wrong road you can never get back since you are downstream of the sin. I believe that God's will is to treat others as you would yourself and to spread the news of His grace and salvation. Any other "search" would be to waste your God given talents - and we know the parable on that... Now - about your "deep need to take the Bible at face value" <grin>. Never mind... Bill |
