Quest for the Truth of the Bible Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 5 » My First Post » Quest for the Truth of the Bible « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Arno
Registered user
Username: Arno

Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear All

Once again my thanks to all of You who responded to my cry for help.

I have since committed myself to a research project trying to establish the veracity of the Bible as the one and only hardcopy that the Supreme Being has provided for stupid people like me. I am approaching this adventure with a prayerful mind and attitude. It is of uttermost importance to me to be able to PROVE to myself that those so-called canonical books are godbreathed. As Iíve mentioned before, it is of NO use to me to read the book whilst greatly doubting the veracity thereof. I was actually asking myself over the weekend why on earth I actually bother with the whole question at all? Why not just continue living a wholesome, *good* life in the eyes of the Supreme Being, myself as well as my fellowman. Why go through all the agony of PROVING to myself what in a strange way seems to me to be a futile excercise. I mean, just HOW does a person go about proving something like this?

I am not really interested in the ways archaeological discoveries verified the reliability of the bible, confirmation of events, whether Noahís ark has been found or not; whether the Garden of Eden has ever been found; whether NASA-computers really proved Josuahís *long day*;
whether the graves of any people in the bible has been found; whether there is archaeological
evidence for the tower of Babel; etc. etc. etc. While it will surely make for interesting reading,
these things are not my real concern.

My concern is whether JC really actually existed and whether the collection of writings compiled
in what we today know as the bible, whether all those 66 *books* are each and everyone in actual fact SUPERNATURALLY INSPIRED. Once Iíve settle these questions satisfactorily in my mind as true beyond any doubt, I cannot give myself over to the Deity of the Hebrew and Christian bible. And no, I cannot just accept in FAITH that these things are true. No matter HOW much the book says that Abraham had FAITH and it was reckoned in his favour. I donít want to believe, I want to KNOW! Anything wrong with that?

Look how many of us are *stuffed-up* emotionally and mentally due to putting our FAITH in human creatures like Ellen White, and previous leaders of the SDA church! And I guess, THAT was also reckoned in our favour as *righteousness*. No, dear FAFs, I MUST KNOW!

And so the search continue ...

Another bothering thought that tenaciously is stuck in my mind for some years now is the way
and manner wherein the Supreme Being is portrayed in the OT. An egotistic, selfcentered, ambivalent, merciless kind of Boogey-Man. Power hungry and just adore to be adored. I find these things distateful. Oh, I can mention numerous examples of this fickle being that is *revealled* to me in the OT. But as I said before, I am not on this list to undermine any one persons FAITH. But I also cannot sit and pretend these thoughts are not in my mind. Some may be of the opinion that Arno is devil-possessed, or at least ... demon-possessed. Maybe I am, maybe I am NOT. Someone might say that I should pray to be set free from this demon-of-biblical-unbelief, but that is not the point ...

The POINT is that I want to prove to my OWN satisfaction that THESE THINGS ARE SO as some of you Faihful BELIEVE it to be. Any input are mightyly appreciated.
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1206
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Arno, I think this may have been suggested already, but since I can't remember I'll run the risk of repeating it. If you are primarily interested in questions like; Did Jesus of Nazareth really exist, was he who he said he was, and are the records of his life reliable, then I would start with Lee Strobel's Case for Christ. Stobel was an athiest who set out to prove that his recently coverted Christian wife was wrong. The book is a recreation of his investigation.

My other comment is just that if you stop to think about it, there are very few things that we can know absolutely for sure with no possibilities of doubt. Take for example things like our existence on a round earth, circling the sun in a solar system that is part of the milky way galaxy. Why do we believe these facts to be true even though we can't readily perceive most of these realities with our naked eyes? The answer is that we weigh the majority of the evidence and choose to accept it based upon what most of the evidence points to.

We can't readily "see" that the earth is round, but the evidence is so overwhelming for a round earth that we choose to accept it as fact. I've never made a voyage around the world and I've never seen the earth from space, but I've examined the evidence for a round earth presented by astronmers and other scientist. I am comfortable believing that the earth is round because the weight of the evidence points to it. Even so, that belief it is an act of "faith" on my part. But here's the important thing: It's NOT an act of blind faith. My belief in a round earth is faith based on evidence.

I would urge you to at least apply the same standard to the Bible. Examine the evidence and make your choice to believe or not believe based on the weight of the evidence. There are very few things that can be proven beyond any shadow of any doubt so we examine the evidence and choose to believe based on the best evidence available.

When you consider the manuscript evidence, the archeological evidence, the prophetic evidence, and the science of statistical probability, the evidence for the Bible being divine in origin rather that human in origin is pretty compelling.

Chris
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3677
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris's advice/response is excellent, Arno.

Don't forget, as you pursue your search, that you can ASK God to reveal truth to you. Ask Him to help you be willing and able to recognize truth, and ask Him, if He is real, to reveal Himself to you in a way that you can reocgnize Him.

"Case for Christ" is really an excellent book.

Colleen
Arno
Registered user
Username: Arno

Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Chris and Colleen, for responding. I have ordered "A Case for Christ", but whilst on Kalahari.net (that's our equavalent of Amazon.com down here in South Africa), I happened to notice below Stobels "Case for Christ" ANOTHER book, "Challenging the Verdict: A Cross examination of Lee Strobel's 'The Case for Christ' by Earl Doherty - well (sigh), what to do? So I ordered the Doherty-book as well.

In the interim I guess it is a matter of patience (wherein as of late I'm not very virtuous ;o)) until the books arrive. In my google-search a lil earlier today I stumbled onto a very Very VERY interesting website ChristianAnswers.Net which have a tremendous amount of info with which I'm presently keeping myself busy.

Thank you for Your patience (heh)... it's just that I get at times so utterly frustrated with everything. Talk to you soon.

Arno
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2

Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Arno,

No, Arno, there is nothing wrong with the way you feel. You are human. You are deeply desiring your Lord, Jesus, in a way many, through the centuries have, trust me. Many 'great' men have written in angst as you have, from the depths of their hearts and and souls, seeking their God, yet, wondering and pleading..."Is he real?" I have asked this, too, even after absolutely knowing a reality of Grace! Even after tasting of his grace "to last a thousand years".(Augustine)

Recall Elijah, after seeing and being a part of one of the most outstanding, awesome works of God in the Old Testement--his running away and fears, forgetting the reality of God. We are but human flesh--dust, and our Lord knows this. His grace is vast--beyond our ken-- and he will allow all the time it takes for us to know him, for he will take all the time it takes and needs for himself to find us.

I understand your questions; I have had them at one time or another. I understand your feelings; I had them, off and on, and sometimes, still do. I understand your leeriness about Ellen White; I have felt that and still do, at least, at times; even being out of Adventism for decades. We want to be sure so much.

I know we say rely on scripture alone, but having an explaination about the Bible; the history of all of its cultures; how the books were chosen; the people in the Bible; the centuries of theological hammering out of pure Gospel doctrine against the heresies; and how to study it, helps tremendously to understand the Lord God, Jesus, of the cross, of the entire Bible.

Colleen has an excellent understanding of the Old and New Testement's studies on the Old and New Covenants, which explain how Christ was within the entire Bible; revealed fully in the substance and reality of Christ, in the New Testement, for us. It might help to email her for a more extensive study and, possibly, Internet links on that for the SDA questions you might have. Just a thought.

Don't give up, Arno. You are heart-soul seeking; you will find Christ, your Lord, in time. He is seeking you, profoundly ~tourjours~ always. It might not feel like that, right now, but, someday, you will know...you will know.

You wrote..."Look how many of us are *stuffed-up* emotionally..." Yes, very much, yes. But It's all right to let it out, now. A lot of denial was in the SDA past; it need not be, now. Much gets swept under the carpet in denial and secrecy through Adventism. And still is in denial, in others, which makes us feel crazy. Remember--if it feels crazy, it probably is. It doesn't mean you are. And never about the real Jesus Christ. In Jesus, there be sanity and serenity, beyond ourselves and everyone and anything around us, for always ~tourjours~.

Arno, you are not possessed and I would doubt that anyone here would think that you are.Possessed people do not try to seek Christ. You might be oppressed (a different thing)into confusion and I am praying for you about that. I think that many could relate to what you are going through in several ways. Many of us have gone through confusion in one way or another, and have been oppressed by the 'enemy' (I have been oppressed, recently, myself). Don't be ashamed; pray and pray; reach out to other Christians, wherever they are.

It is so wonderful, positive, good and God-led that you have reached out like you have. I pray that we can hold you up, that you can lean on us, learn, pray for you and help you as you need us to.

Arno, even as you read quality books, keep reading the New Testement. Stay in scripture, for those are Living Words to feed you, even though it may not feel like it nor when you feel no faith. It doesn't depend on your feelings nor even your faith; you are still 'fed' on the Word. (feelings--even feelings of faith-- can come and go, but the Word is solid, baseline, eternal like a rock, transforming our minds) It still will do its work within you, to lead you to the truth of God. You may not realize the truths right away, but, in time, you will. The Old Testement is, also, a feeding on the Word, but I understand, right now, that you have a block about the Old Testement God. That is a common ex-SDA feeling. You are not the only nor first one to feel this way about the OT. God can deal with that. He will not condenm you for it. Just read the NT, for now, about your Lord, Jesus, whom you are desiring to learn about. That simple man, the "Word become flesh", "who dwelt among us"; God, who became a tiny baby, crying for his mama. Then grew up, as a man, to die for us, as God, because he is hopelessly in love with you. Then the story of the new Believers in Acts, then wherever the Holy Spirit leads you from there. He will... This is all, which has helped me, scripturally, in the past. (I am not saying you must do it just as I say!!)I hope my gracings are of benefit for you and may Christ bring you his peace of mind.

It is normal for an ex-SDA to get "frustrated with everything", Arno. This is why this forum is here. Keep coming back.

There is a verse in Psalms, which helps me everytime I have doubts or need guidance in anything:

~I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go;
I will counsel you with My eye upon you~

Psalm 32:8 (New American Standard Bible)

My heart and prayers really go out to you, Arno~

With prayers, understanding and Christ's love,
Cathy
choosier1@msn.com
Arno
Registered user
Username: Arno

Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for your inspiring reply, Cathy. I'm more resolved than ever to get a handle on this all-important question in my personal life. It means SO MUCH to me to be able to express my fears, doubts, and "wayward" thoughts without being censured for doing just that. Whilst awaiting delivery of the books I've ordered, allow me a slight digression.

Tied in with my present quest in getting a handle on JC and the Bible, is the question of HOW ON EARTH have I ever came to be where I am today (the unbelieve part)? Especially when I consider how I "came to Christ" as a teenager, the price I had to pay to be able to "follow the Truth", how God never once stepped in to alleviate the physical and mental suffering, discord in family relationships ... actually when I look back and weigh everything up, I experience such an upwelling of resentment and hurt towards certain people, circumstances and situations, that I can cry out to each and everyone like a Jeremiah of old, saying "my bowels, my bowels ..." Yes, I feel like puking and ... and whatever else might alleviate this hurt and burden of the past and present.

I was only 13 years of age when I've learned about that terrible, SOULDESTROYING and EVIL doctrine of the socalled INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT. I have always remembered the utter FEAR and DISPAIR that filled my young being, sitting with my bosom buddy in the late afternoon sun on the steps of the front stoep whilst I had my first encounter with that terrible doctrine. (Peter was being taught by his grandfather who was an elder in the SDA church. I was taught by whoever lead Sunday School in the Afrikaans Dutch Reformed Church.) I somehow was of the opinion that the local SDA membership had something that was not in the DRC. So, ever once in a while I will enjoy Sabbath services with Peter and his family ... and in the process became the protegÈ of the local SDA pastor ... I wanted OUT of the DRC and IN with Peter as a "Sevvy".

One day after Sabbath Service I braced myself and asked Dad whether he would mind if I am baptised in the SDA church. To put it mildly: Dad denied me my request ... and I was not allowed to fellowship with Peter and the rest freely after this incident. What to do? Believing that I was doing the correct thing, I would smuggle my church clothes out of the house with the excuse (actually LYING) that I'm going off to a "friend" for the morning. And then, one fateful Sabbath on 25 November (Peter and I was both 15 years of age at this point in time), it was time for Peter to be baptised. Myself and two other close buddies (also DRC) decided to go and support Peter in this big step taken that day. At the point where Peter and two other candidates went to the changeroom next to the baptismal *pond*, I went with him and requested to be baptised with my friend. This step caused no small commotion amongst the attendents and very soon a short debate started between the leadership whether I should be baptised or not. Suffice to say that, due to everyone knowing that my heart was with the SDA Church and that I was a bold champion for the "Faith", Peter and I got baptised together.

Looking back, that baptismal experience was something out of this world, euphoric, just GREAT ... but in retrospect, an occultic initiation into a life of fear, persecution, and dread ...

How I wish I could finish the story right here, but it's early morning and I've got to get the fresh bread to my postal agency. Thanks for listening ... will continue soon.

Arno

I approached my father
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3680
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Arnoóthanks for beginning your story. I'm looking forward to the continuation.

What painful memories you are sharing. You risked a lot to be baptized with your friend.

Looking forward to more...

Colleen
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2

Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Arno,

Thank you for beginning and sharing your story. Please continue to share as you need to do so.

Arno, your baptism was not necessarily an initiation into an SDA cult.You could very well have been baptized into Jesus Christ. Perhaps, this is something you could place on the backburner, for now, until other things are more clear in your mind, and not be anxious about it. One thing I am sure of, God has not let go of you and you do not belong to evil.

Arno, a few years ago, I almost lost my son a few times and I was very bitter towards God and could not even pray for the very first time in my life. I was so resentful. I felt like I had done so much for God, went through so much for Christ (even as I knew that was immature of me), then he allowed my son to be struck down. At that time, I had no idea if my son would survive or, if he did, would ever be the wonderful boy I had known before. I railed at God, "Why, why, why? My son? My only son? I STOOD for you, Jesus!!! How could you do this?" I couldn't speak to him for 2 years, when before, I prayed like I breathed. It was so alien to me, to be on the outs with my Lord. But I still could not come back to him and I began to deeply doubt.I was on a dangerous edge, again, and I didn't even care.

Yet, he didn't leave me nor quit speaking to me. When the movie 'The Passion of the Christ' came out, something came through (Before I even saw it) I could not ignore and, gradually, my Lord came back to me, and I began to pray, again. First for others, then for myself; then I began to read scripture, again, like I used to. I still had some of those feelings, but his light was seeping back into my consciousness because he made sure that it did so. He was not going to give up on me, no matter what.

Now, things are completely different. I pray, study and read scripture like I used to, but I have a new perspective, painfully born from growth and trials. Not my first trial, but the most horrific trial, when I broke from the loss of my son. Not his very life, as I feared so many times, but his broken brain. I changed.

Refining like gold through trials, to learn, grow and become more into the mind of Christ, his fruits of the Spirit, and with him, like him. I do not presume that this one is the last trial in my life.

~In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;~
1Peter 1:6-7 NASB

I did not rejoice until hindsight, I must admit. Now, in seeing how God was with me, my son and my other children all that long, hard path, and how we grew, bonded closer togther and grew in Christ, I can look back and be thankful for that 'refining' to become like 'gold' in Jesus'. There are many, many things we would not know, now, or have grown into, if we had not been on that path, carried by Christ, even though we didn't always know or feel it so. Even when I lashed out at God and couldn't even speak to him; he was still there, teaching me, speaking, listening, loving, guiding; never, ever letting me go.

For everything in my lifetime, especially, the hard times, there was a purpose. The only purpose and point there could be...for Christ to draw me closer to himself and teach me more of himself; then to give freely to others of what I was given; his consolations and hope from "the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort" (James).

Arno, there is a purpose for you in all this.

One day at a time. Yesterday ended last night and tomorrow belongs to God. It's going to be all right. Understanding will come to you, in time.

Blessings and graces to you this week~
Cathy
choosier1@msn.com


Arno
Registered user
Username: Arno

Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi :o)

To ALL who have followed this thread so far.

Although I have not posted for about a month, I was nevertheless rather busy with "research" re. this utterly perplexing topic (imho). I've surfed the net and happened to land on some of the most exciting websites ... and some of the most outlandish ... In the interim I was anxiously and NOT so patiently awaiting arrival of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ", that was so highly recommended by some of you. I'm happy to reply that the book eventually arrived late yesterday afternoon via special courier service. So, I've jumped in head-tooth-'n-claw ...

I will share with you as I progress along with this lil tome.

Warm Regards

Arno
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3898
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Arno, it's really good to hear from you and to hear your news. We'll be looking forward to hearing your reactions...

Praying for you...
Colleen

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration