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Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 213
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So are Adventist soy-meat products actually more healthy?

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3683
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Gilbert--fascinating paper.

I have heard other comments recently that the meat analogs pushed for so long as the "healthy alternative" to meat have actually resulted in more disease and death than the meat consumption yielded.

I can't quote you any specificsóbut this is a most interesting "thing".

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1484
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting link Gilbert. At first I was a little skeptical when I saw he is selling whey products which are soy's competitors in the health industry, and this could be a concern for conflict of interest, by publishing an article which knocks soy.

But, there may be many legitimate points. I know that soy was touted big time in the health industry for awhile, but more disappointing studies came out, proving that a lot of claims made for soy were untrue.

On that same website I found an excellent article which I know is absolutely true, and is must reading if you want to enjoy optimal health. And that is linked here www.mercola.com/article/insulin.htm
There are more studies coming out all the time showing that Diabetes and Degenerative diseases can be minimized only if folks will show enough discipline to restrict their sugar and refined flours.

Also, on this link, it talks about Little Debbie products that are being pedaled by SDAs--yes, right, the so-called health message. Nothing is worse for your health than these type of products.

Stan
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1340
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also was skeptical, but when I searched the web for his name, I couldn't find anything that even hinted of negativity, unlike some of those infomercial quacks. But much of the information I have actually read in other spots that aren't peddling anything.

Stan, is there a "safe" amount of sugar one can consume? I have an acquaintance who is a phd in organic chemistry. He works at Bayer smashing molecules all day to see what happens to them...obviously for the purpose of medicine. He was doing a "class" on why xxx (a non-biological science), more than biology ever will, will eventually prove evolution a farce. And from that perspective, he talked about all sorts of things we never learned in biology. (the human body is quite fascinating viewed from that perspective, and if I could find my notes, I'd be more specific...sorry). Anyway, one of the segments was on the issue of sugar and the sugar substitutes...how there is "handedness" called chirality (spelling?) which if in one form is digestible and usable for energy by the human body, but if the other form, is indigestible and therefore passes through the body. He made the comment that from a chemical compound, the body doesn't know if sugar comes from an orange, processed sugar cane or some other source. So, sugar is sugar is sugar. But we also hear that eating more fruit is good....but if what Mike says is true from a chemical compound point, isn't there a place that too much fruit, purely from a sugar ingestion perspective, becomes a health issue? I've even noticed more and more "health" reports for kids showing limiting fruit juices (100% juice stuff, not koolaid stuff) and I just presume it is because of the sugar intake.

So, is there a form of diabetes (i hear there are different kinds??) that is more suseptible to sweets and those things mentioned in that article, and another form that isn't? I only ask because my grandmother had diabetes controlled by diet...she could eat absolutely no sugar and was religious about asking at every meal to make sure there was none in anything for as long as I can remember. And they were very poor, so sugar was not really in the house per se, but certainly potatoes were as they're very cheap. My former father in law also had diabetes, again a very poor man that didn't have sweets in the house. On the other hand, I had a favorite aunt that still has a stocked candy dish, but no diabetes even though she's approaching 90. So, just curious if there are genetic components not tied to diet, and is there an socio-economic factor in that mix or just coincidental in the ones i know.

I'm not asking for a dissertation on diabetes, just curious on your thoughts as a doc about sugar and it's forms and the kinds of diabetes. My personal preference is that if sugar is sugar, I'll take mine in chocolate over orange every day :-). And since my job requires walking anywhere from 2-5 miles per day, the caloric intake has yet to impact me negatively ... though everyone keeps telling me it will eventually.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1487
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Melissa,
You have asked many good questions. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but as a physician who treats complications of Diabetes every day I will at least share some of my observations. First of all, due to time and space considerations, I would like to recommend a book that is now in paperback and sold everywhere. That is the book "South Beach Diet". Dr. Agatston, who is a respected cardiologist, and not some whacko health nut, wrote a book explaining why refined sugar causes Diabetes and obesity.

We are in the middle of an epidemic of obesity and increasing Diabetes. This is mostly due to the consumption of refined sugar, white bread, french fries (the worst 'food' ever), white rice, refined noodles, and many other related items. I don't doubt Melissa, that there are some folks who have such good genetic pedigree, that they are able to even smoke cigarettes--let alone consume sugar, and still outlive most of us.

But the weight of the evidence is overwhelming about sugar. You have a good point about sugar being sugar. The benefit of fruits such as apples and berries, is that they have abundant antioxidants, and when they are consumed as the whole fruit, then those sugars are bound by fiber, and they won't absorb as rapidly. As an aside, chocolate also has antioxidants, and chocolate is healthier than french fries by a mile.

The biochemistry of sugar is also very interesting. If you change the sucrose sugar (cane sugar) to the alcohol ester form, you get sucralose, which is Splenda--an amazing breakthrough. In fact, there is ice cream made by both Dreyers and Breyers which is made with Splenda, and, as an ice cream fan I can't tell the difference. Now I enjoy ice cream without guilt.

If a person drinks fruit juices, then there is very little difference from that sugar (fructose), and regular cane sugar (sucrose). It is possible to eat too much fruit. Even fruit such as bananas should be eaten in moderation, but berries are much healthier, and can be eaten in more abundance.

Type I Diabetes Mellitus is insulin dependent diabetes, and is usually genetic in cause. Other causes are pancreatitis, and viruses which destroy the pancreas.

Type II Diabetes Mellitus, is the type that is the most prevalent, and most of it is caused by going against Ellen's advice about sugar (smiley face). This disease is mostly preventable, but because of the weakness of human nature, we will always have this type of diabetes to treat. It is incredibly hypocritical for SDAs to attack smokers or drinkers, and yet praise the promoters of "Little Debbie" products, that are contributing to the worst health epidemic ever.

Drinking a beer is so much more beneficial than drinking root beer. (assuming moderate amounts).

The SDA mentality of denying meat to their members, yet, themselves eating food that is far worse, just boggles the mind.

Melissa, if you, or anyone else has further questions on this topic, or any topic related to adult medicine, then feel free to email me at riverfonz@aol.com

Stan
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a friend that is anemic right now she is a strict SDA vegan,and denies that her diet is to blame,what i cant understand is that she is a strict vegan but very obese,has high blood pressure,I think she has alot of carbs in her diet for the obesty
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1341
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you very much, Stan. That was very interesting.

My grandfather was one of those who smoked for 60 years before he quit and lived to be almost 90 years old. He also quit in one day, when he decided he was done smoking, he never had another cigarette. And he smoked the filterless kind. It seems he outdid many statistics.

It was nice here this past weekend and I decided to take Jonathan on a bike ride and go eat lunch somewhere. I rarely eat at fast food places, but that was what was closest, so we ended up at macky Ds. (Mcdonalds). They now publish their list of "nutrients" in their food, and as I was reading what had what, I was sad to read how many transfats are in my beloved french fries. That's a whole weeks worth for me. And in a little body like my 3 year old, I'm sure it is a whole quarter! I guess next time we'll take the extra half mile and go to subway. I used to consider myself health conscious, until I met B. Now I find a rebellious streak wanting to ignore it all just to irritate him. :-) But I still try to do what I think is right, in a balanced sort of way. I also discovered splenda in applesauce. That's indiscernable as well.

Thanks again for the info, Stan.
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 214
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dirk Anderson has done quite a bit of research on soy products at his site:
http://www.ellenwhite.org/archive/soy.htm

Gilbert Jorgensen
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1489
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
I also think there is a place for some balance in this discussion. If we limit the intake of these bad foods to our kids to a once-in-awhile treat, then it is probably not so bad.

But to revisit your love for chocolate, well, good quality chocolate has a lot of antioxidants that are good, and it is certainly better than eating white bread, mashed potatoes, and other refined flours. Chocolate in moderation is OK, but as we all know, it is very addicting.

Stan

Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 329
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I eat nothing but burgers, it might harm me. If I eat nothing but soy, it might harm me. If eat all meat, it might harm me. If I eat all fruit, it might harm me. I am most comfortable with what I was taught in the 70's in school. A healthy balanced diet comprised of all food groups. I like soy milk on my cereal so that is what I use. My kids like real milk, so that is what they use. I like tofu and beef in Japanese food sometimes.

SDAs try to connect OT food laws with science to result in manmade miracles. Vegetarianism and laws in the OT is not the way to physical and spiritual health, miracles and salvation as taught in the Seventh-day Adventist church. If we are healed of any ailments, we can only thank Jesus for healing us. And if science helps, healing is still ultimately a gift from Christ.

Again, ultimately, physical healing is from Jesus.

Stan - I agree with you that the South Beach Diet is very good.


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