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Jackob
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread started with the comparision Dennis made d between Ellen White and Mary Baker. I suggest to return strictly to analyzing the case of Ellen White.

Why I suggest this? Do you remember what Walter Martin said about Ellen White is his book, "Kingdom of Cults"? He presented her as a CHRISTIAN woman, deluded, but a christian woman who sincerily mistaken her gifts. And she had taken her charismatic reveries to be revelations from God.

I believe that all starts with the evaluation of Ellen White. Even Walter Martin couldn't say that SDA is a christian curch if he believed that Ellen White was not a christian. And this has nothing to do with the members, if they are, or are not truly christians. I suppose it will be better to concentrate on ELlen WHite, and if we can't say that she was a christian, well, it will not be easy to remove the label cult. I suppose that even Walter Martin could not remove the SDA name from the list of cults, if Ellen WHhie was not declared christian



Melissa
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I only have questions, not strong, knowledgeable opinions, about this topic, but one of the quandries in all the comments is dividing from the people you know with the true teachings of the church. B gets very frustrated with me that I won't get to know adventist people and find out what they believe for myself rather than talking to you all (cuz you can't really know what you're talking about :-) ), but my focus has been on the official teachings of the church. Not the documents published for evangelical consumption, but what they teach those who are already on the inside. What I recognize (in part by observation and discussion with B) is that the official teaching of what the gospel is is confused...even B has acknowledged this. He was reading Romans for the first time a few years ago, and he asked me a question which I don't remember because I got so stuck with the first part of it... "IF we are really saved by faith....." Here is someone who has been bred, born and raised SDA. He is so loyal to the SDA church, he won't even go to church with his son if it means going on Sunday. But at 37 years of age, he was just learning the Bible says we are saved by faith. Is that really a religion that teaches the gospel in any true form? It had never really occurred to me prior to that point that he may not really be saved at all. And I always struggle with whether he is the exception or the norm. But does doing religious activities, saying religious things, even praying and trying to be "obedient" to "God's word" as you understand it, without faith, make you saved or is it just dead works? I know none of us can discern actions from faith verses religion because we can't truly know the heart, but it makes me wonder.

If one takes into account the things they promote the greatest and the loudest, how can you not think keeping the sabbath is required for salvation? It is the seal of God. According to EGW, if you don't have the sabbath, you don't have life...and her many other contradictory statements. Does that mean their aren't individuals who have discovered the gospel in spite of the teachings? Sure, but if you peeled away the people you know and love and pray for, if you just analyzed the system, and its teachings and actions....would anything you say be any different? (that's to any of you discussing....no one view being supported here). I personally know some incredibly Godly people that were saved while they were catholics. Some that are tenuous calling adventism a cult, freely call RC a cult. Is it the personal associations? Can we peel away the individuals and find any greater common position? It seems the individuals are the ones who create a more evangelical adventism, because I struggle to find it in the official teachings of the church. And if the evangelical ministers are so well accepted, why does it seem they're so afraid too contradict the official position?

And if they're not a cult, where do you go with it? Adventism does not fit my definition of a denomination. While I am certain there are exceptions, for the ones I've been familiar with, as long as you're in a Bible-believing, Bible teaching, Christ honoring church, the name on the door is secondary. Right or wrong, without that sense of the greater body of Christ exists beyond the doors where I worship, it's not a denomination. If adventism is not a cult, is it a denomination?

Someone asked if adventists were Christians, or something like that, and I don't think the SDAs I know understand the gospel enough to consider them Christian. They're religious and zealous for the traditions of their religion, and say a lot of things Christians might recognize, but there's something that is different than I experience with other Christians that I first meet. I guess I'd rather assume they need to hear the gospel and be wrong than to assume they know "enough" of the gospel that they don't need to understand any more. And I realize the second position is not blatantly said in this thread, it's just the opposite extreme of the first end.

It would sure be nice if they would just say what they mean and mean what they say. Then we could find the appropriate label much easier. If I had to take a corner, I think the official teachings of the church make the religion itself a cult. But because people apply those teachings differently and take or leave some aspects, some indvidiuals within the church don't match the label of the organization. That doesn't change the label of the organization to me, just makes the people mis-matched. But that is just how I settled the issue for me. You all certainly know more people than I do and have a far greater sample than the one mid-west church I've had any significant exposure to.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, you make very good observations. I appreciate your distinctions and explanations, and you actually said what I have often thought but hesitate to verbalize. I believe many Adventists are zealous for God and to what they believe, but they are not born again. I so know what you mean about meeting Adventists but something is "different" from other Christians. Not always, of course, but often...

And Jackob, your point about Ellen is very good and meshed with Jeremy's observations about Galatianism.

I'm actually learning/clarifying a lot from this discussion!

But aren't you all just thankful beyond words that God released us from that whole system, and here we are on a Good Friday celebrating our certain salvation and anticipating Resurrection Sunday? How awesome is that miracle?!

Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

Before the current, SDA Senate chaplain took office, I read his remarks when he was interviewed by a reporter from the Washington Post. He indicated that he would NEVER use the name of Jesus in his public prayers.

On the other hand, it was most refreshing to hear the powerful prayer, in Jesus' name, that a Methodist minister from Dallas gave at President Bush's inauguration. I even sent the White House an email expressing my appreciation for having such a wonderful, powerful prayer during the inauguration. This African-American Methodist pastor is a close friend of the our President. Praise God, President Bush knew how his minister friend earnestly prays "in Jesus name." This was the best public prayer I have ever heard. I still have a copy of it somewhere in my files.

Sadly, the SDA Senate chaplain Black personally prefers Christless prayers. Apparently, this is why he got the job with many competing applicants. His prayers will never make the most liberal Senator uncomfortable.

Dennis Fischer
Lynne
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Colleen, I am thankful beyond words for being released from that whole system! A miracle! This Easter will be different for me than years past :-)

Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, Dennis, Franklin Graham's prayer at Bush's first inauguration closed with these words:

"Now, O Lord, we dedicate this presidential inaugural ceremony to you. May this be the beginning of a new dawn for America as we humble ourselves before you and acknowledge you alone as our Lord, our Savior and our Redeemer.

We pray this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

That made a lot of people angry. :-)

Stan, I would also like to know what you think is particularly Christian and/or not cultic about Wintley Phipps. I am quite shocked that you would make that statement.

Jeremy
Riverfonz
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am trying to catch up on this thread. I regret Jeremy that I have just not had any time to study those links you provided. You have asked me a lot of questions. When my day job gets a little less busy, I want to clarify a lot of things I have said. But this is a difficult medium for me to express my thoughts.

What do you know about Wintley Phipps , Jeremy, that shocks you as to why I would make that statement?

Dennis,
point well taken about mr Black. I totally agree.

Well, then, does anyone want to dig up some dirt on Dr. Ben Carson, maybe he isn't a Christian in your estimation either Jeremy?

Stan
Ric_b
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am more than a little concerned when I see us making decisions about the authenticity of specific individual's Christianity. Maybe that doesn't bother anyone else, but I would prefer to leave that decision to God. If someone proclaims to me that they are a believer and follower in our Lord I would rather err on the side of grace and consider them a brother or sister in Christ (albeit one who has much potential for growing in understanding) than to doubt and condemn them. The God I know reaches through the errors all the way to the person's heart. I won't dismiss the doctrinal errors as trivial, they aren't. But there is a level of judging other individuals going on that I am not comfortable with seeing. It reminds me too much of being within Adventism still.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Rick. I agree. Jesus came for people, not organizations, and He alone can judge us and call us.

Thank you for your comment.

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is very dangerous to sit in judgment on whether people are saved or not. I know Walter Martin got a lot of people upset when he declared that Mrs. White was regenerate and born again, albeit wrong on most of her theology. But a man with his credentials does deserve the benefit of the doubt. But, I know of many people who came to Christ as a result of reading Desire of Ages (even though I am convinced she DID NOT write it). I question if anyone ever came to a saving knowledge of Christ by reading Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy--in fact I know that is impossible--but someone has to answer why it is possible with Desire of Ages.

I have been convicted over the last week, and humbled, that I need to be much more careful than I have been on the past on this forum about judging other Christians. I will stand up stronger than ever to condemn false teaching, and SDA is a false gospel as taught traditionally, but I won't pass judgment on individuals--that is God's business. But if anyone is preaching a gospel that is different than the apostle Paul preached, then that gospel is to be condemned in the strongest possible way.

One problem I have in judging Ellen White, is, I don't know for sure whether she wrote anything that was attributed to her. I err on the side of blaming the SDA leaders, because I know for sure they have lied to us, and they were undoubtedly in their right minds. There are so many questions about Ellen's mental status. Also, she has the disadvantage of not being able to answer all the charges leveled against her. But I have trust in a sovereign God, who has all the answers.

Stan
Riverfonz
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another interesting observation for me, is that this thread really started to take off, and cause all kinds of emotions, when I quoted from Dale Ratzlaff's book "Cultic Doctrine", and stated that I had to agree with Dale that though Adventist is definitely cultic, it still does not fall to the level of cults like CS, JW, or LDS. I still don't see why that is so controversial.

At any rate, it has become clear to me, that if the great pioneers such as Des Ford and Dale Ratzlaff, were to come onto this forum to discuss their views, it doesn't appear that they would be welcomed very warmly.I just find that interesting and perplexing.

Stan
Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ellen White had no idea that someday her writings could be easily accessed and critiqued with the use a computer. Obviously, she thought she could get away with her rampant plagiarism and contradictions. Since information technology has become such a curse to Adventism, she should have warned her devotees about its future arrival and havoc.

Today the Adventist church finds itself with only a dead prophet and no current counsels on how to dispel or resolve doctrinal disputes and numerous, embarrassing scandals. For example, I heard a five-minute A & E clip on radio last evening on the history of the Branch Davidians. Since Seventh-day Adventism is a vital part of their history, the radio commentary mentioned their role. It rightly put Adventism in a very cultic and negative perspective. I often wonder how many Branch Davidians, who died in the flames at Waco, were still officially on the SDA membership roster.

Oh yes, did any of you catch the beginning of the seven last plagues (ice like hail weighing 100 lbs or a talent) falling on LLU on the national TV news yesterday? :>) Apparently, a chunk of condensed ice from a passing airliner fell on a gym roof there and punched a hole through it. This was a most unusual happening. Fortunately, nobody was injured or killed in this unprecedented incident.

Dennis Fischer
Jackob
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two years ago I almost return to my adventist faith, due to the fact that I read many of the good things Ellen White wrote in her books. She wrote about grace, about Sola Scriptura, she praised Luther and other great men of God, she recomended openess to the study of the Bible in some cases, she teach about finished atonement. Many good things indeed, I can say.

At the same time I struggled with the fact that she also teached the investigative judgment, that the atonement was not yet finished, and sacked Ballenger for exposing this doctrine, going as far as in saying that Ballenger is lead by the demons.


quote:

I testify in the name of the Lord that Elder Ballenger is led by satanic agencies and spiritualistic, invisible leaders. Those who have the guidance of the Holy Spirit will turn away from these seducing spirits.--Ms 59, 1905.




Ballenger was doing God's work sustaining that Jesus had not entered the Holy of Holies in 1844 because He was there immeditely after the resurrection. But the work of the Holy Spirit through Ballenger was labeling by Ellen White as the work of the satanic agencies, a work of satanic forces.

Jesus spoke about the sin against the Holy Spirit, attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit. How Ellen White can speak in these terms about the work of God and still be considered a christian is beyond my understanding.

But for me the real issue was plagiarism. Ellen White was a thief all her life, she never repented of this sin. She even reacted negatively using the pretext of a vision to black her secretary. How could a christian be a thief who use lies to cover her tracks, and this not for a period, but for entire life, without repentance?

Jesus said that we will know the prophets after their fruits. For me it is impossible to say that Ellen White was a christian and a thief all her life, living in denial and lies

Suppose I'm wrong, perhaps I don't see the entire picture, but what kind of proof will be clear enought to give a correct verdict about Ellen White, about her christianity?

Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, as I have said before, The Desire of Ages preaches a totally false gospel and a different Jesus. If someone is saved reading that book, it is only by a miracle of God. To say that the same thing cannot happen when someone reads Joseph Smith's writings is, in my opinion, inaccurate. God can use anything He wants to awaken people to the real Jesus!

Stan, you wrote: "But if anyone is preaching a gospel that is different than the apostle Paul preached, then that gospel is to be condemned in the strongest possible way."

That is not what Paul wrote. He did not condemn the different gospel. He condemned the individual preaching it. I am sorry, but he condemned Ellen White. To say that she did not write or choose the false gospel preached throughout her writings is just not accurate at all. We have many manuscripts written in her own handwriting! Much of the extreme things she wrote, she either wrote herself or adapted from others. But to say that maybe she did not agree with her writings is just not accurate. She preached sermons, she confirmed that these anti-Gospel things were truth, etc., etc.

To say that she did not have the opportunity to answer the charges leveled against her is, again, just not accurate. Many people made many various charges against her. Her only responses were to say that the false gospel she was preaching was the truth and that anyone who dared question her at all, even in the smallest matter, was headed for hell. She was totally an authoritarian cult leader.

And she knew what she was doing! She used many deceptive schemes--she was not stupid. She would have been highly offended if someone were to tell her that she did not have a good enough mental state to be held accountable for what she taught. Also, God does not allow demons to teach His children.

Let's see what the Word of God tells us about people like Ellen G. White.


quote:

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:1-5 NIV.




God's Word clearly lets us know that Ellen G. White had a deceiving spirit and was taught by demons. She was not a Christian.

God's Word tells us that we are to judge the prophets. Jesus says:


quote:

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:15-20 NASB.)




In the following verses after that, Jesus goes on to say that these are the people who will say to Him, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name..." but to whome he will say, "I never knew you; depart from me..."

Jesus is crystal clear here: false prophets are not saved Christians. They are lost. They are wolves. A false prophet is a "bad tree" which cannot "produce good fruit." (Of course the Mormons say that Joseph Smith produced good fruit, but we must look at the fruit in their own lives!)

Jesus says that we will KNOW that they are false and are ravenous wolves and are NOT Christians. To say that we cannot judge Ellen G. White as not a Christian is to contradict Jesus Christ's own words.


quote:

"Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD." (Jeremiah 23:30-32 NIV.)




The LORD declares that He is personally against people like Ellen G. White. What a frightful position to be in!

Then at the end of that chapter, the LORD gives this warning to those who follow these kinds of prophets: "I will bring upon you everlasting disgraceóeverlasting shame that will not be forgotten." (Jeremiah 23:40 NIV.)

God's Word says:


quote:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. ...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment," (2 Peter 2:1, 9 NASB.)




Ellen G. White, as a false prophet, is described as being kept under punishment until the day of judgment. It is not inaccurate for us to say that she is burning in Hades. This may not be a comfortable thought for some of us, but it is what the Word of God says, and I have to believe it.


quote:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:8-9 NIV.)




Ellen White clearly preached a different gospel. Therefore, she is eternally condemned.

Paul clearly did not say "don't judge false teachers"!

Paul did not worry about speaking badly of false teachers: "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:13 NIV.)


quote:

"At noon, Elijah began making fun of them. "Pray louder!" he said. "Baal must be a god. Maybe he's day-dreaming or using the toilet or traveling somewhere. Or maybe he's asleep, and you have to wake him up." (1 Kings 18:27 CEV.)




Have any of you on this forum seen any of us making fun of Ellen White in that "Biblical" fashion? :-)

In conclusion, Ellen G. White was one of the most evil people I have ever known about. Seeing what I have seen, there is no way I can say that there is any chance that EGW was a Christian woman, anymore than I can say that Adolph Hitler may have been a Christian man. Would any of you say that we "can't judge" whether Hitler was a Christian? I really would like to have an answer to that. :-)

If any of the above post sounds harsh, I am sorry but this is where I must stand--upon the solid Word of God.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on April 15, 2006)
Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew there was more Biblical evidence I was forgetting about!

God's Word says:


quote:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
[...]
20If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:7-8, 20 NASB.)




Ellen G. White boldly proclaimed the fact that she did not love Christians. On this page here are some quotes showing that EGW did not love Christians.

She was simply not a Christian. That's not just me saying that. God's Word says that we can know, as I think I've shown amply in my above two posts.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on April 15, 2006)
Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I have to agree with your assessment above about EGW being an unrepentant, deceitful thief and liar her whole life. What does God's Word say about such people?


quote:

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8 NASB.)




Let's also not forget about Ellen G. White's murders, for which she was also unrepentant. Whenever her false counsels murdered someone, she would try to defend herself and blame others.

Also, what does Revelation say about people who would dare to add to or take away from its words?


quote:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB.)




Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on April 15, 2006)
Randyg
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,Rick,Dennis, et al,
I am agreeing with much of what you have said. Having studied my way out of Adventism over the last couple of years, I have come to realize that not everybody is challenged by the same things that challenged me. I am learning, albeit slowly that I have to extend the Grace that God has shown me to those dear friends and family that do not have the same understanding I have come to know. As I continue to respect their walk with Christ, I have found many, if not most, continue to value my opinion and are indeed willing to dig a little deeper into why and what they themselves believe. It is quite startling for many to actually confront what they have been taught as truth as compared to what is really in the Bible. Before anybody can honestly question their belief system, there has to be a recognition that something might be wrong. Until they are open to this possibility, I don't feel an honest evaluation of new ideas is possible.

Do I have strong opinions on what I see as fundamental problems with certain Adventist doctrines? Yes sir, I do. Is it my role to voice those opinions unless asked? I don't think so. Unfortunately, some will interpret the changes in my life as a personal affront, and judgement by me on their own Christian walk. This seems unavoidable even when not intended.

Growing up Adventist, we were taught, albeit not overtly, to be judgemental. Our whole mindset was one of Us vs.Them. We always sat in judgement of our fellow Adventists by how we felt they were keeping or observing "the rules". We judged everybodies "rightness" with God on their external behaviours. This judgement(subconsciously) was of course multiplied 10 fold when we spoke of Sunday keeping Christians. We have been borne into a judgemental mentality.

I would welcome the participation of Des Ford or Dale Ratzlaff or many others on this forum. Most of the time there is warm civility found here that is not seem on many other sites. I would hope and trust that that could and would be maintained. Unfortunately, communication via the internet lacks the subtlety found in voice inflections, facial expressions, and body posture. We are left with words alone, and sometimes the bravado that accompanies anonymity is not always the best way to discuss highly emotional topics. This however is our lot.

Easter Blessings to all,

Randy
Lynne
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jeremy for showing us that Hell is real and God is just! He will punish the false prophets!

Stan - Do you know if Walter Martin read the writing below from Ellen White and do you think he would call that sort of language Christian? She called Sunday worshipers fanatics! So, behind the back of Walter Martin, she would have called him a Fanatic bowing down to the Papal institutions. A Christian lady? Or did somebody else make this up? Christian visions?

Chap. 42 - Our Denominational Name
ìI was shown in regard to the remnant people of God taking a name. Two classes were presented before me. One class embraced the great bodies of professed Christians. They were trampling upon God's law and bowing to a papal institution. They were keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord. The other class, who were but few in number, were bowing to the great Lawgiver. They were keeping the fourth commandment. The peculiar and prominent features of their faith were the observance of the seventh day, and waiting for the appearing of our Lord from heaven.

The conflict is between the requirements of God and the requirements of the beast. The first day, a papal institution which directly contradicts the fourth commandment, is yet to be made a test by the two-horned beast. And then the fearful warning from God declares the penalty of bowing to the beast and his image. They shall drink the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.

No name which we can take will be appropriate but that which accords with our profession and expresses our faith and marks us a peculiar people.

The name Seventh-day Adventist is a standing rebuke to the Protestant world. Here is the line of distinction between the worshipers of God and those who worship the beast and receive his mark.

The great conflict is between the commandments of God and the requirements of the beast. It is because the saints are keeping all ten of the commandments that the dragon makes war upon them. If they will lower the standard and yield the peculiarities of their faith, the dragon will be at peace; but they excite his ire because they have dared to raise the standard and unfurl their banner in opposition to the Protestant world, who are worshiping the institution of papacy.

The name Seventh-day Adventist carries the true features of our faith in front, and will convict the inquiring mind. Like an arrow from the Lord's quiver, it will wound the transgressors of God's law, and will lead to repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was shown that almost every fanatic who has arisen, who wishes to hide his sentiments that he may lead away others, claims to belong to the church of God. Such a name would at once excite suspicion; for it is employed to conceal the most absurd errors. This name is too indefinite for the remnant people of God. It would lead to the supposition that we had a faith which we wished to cover up.î









Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Lynne, I noticed that that last paragraph is an amazing contradiction of God's Word (not that the rest of the quote isn't!).

She says that just using the name "the church of God" is not good enough. But what does the Bible say?


quote:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Cr 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1Cr 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] not.

1Cr 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

2Cr 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)




So, EGW is condemning the Apostle Paul for simply using the name "the church of God"!

Anyway, EGW also called Christians "worse than heathen," and many other names such as "nominal," "fallen churches," "Babylon," "apostate," "unbelievers," etc. She said, "Their profession, their prayers, and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of God." And, "they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers..." She also says that Satan answers their prayers and when they pray to the Father to give them His Spirit that they are really praying to Satan and that he breathes upon them an unholy influence!:


quote:

"I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children." (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 56, paragraph 1.)




All of those quotes and more can be found here, including this one which I think is one of the most amazing:


quote:

"The First Day Adventists are a class that are the most difficult to reach. They will generally reject the truth, as did the Jews. We should, as far as possible, go forward as though there were not such a people in existence. They are the elements of confusion. Immoralities exist among them to a fearful extent. It would be the greatest calamity to have many of their members embrace the truth. They would have to unlearn everything and learn anew, or they would cause us great trouble. There are occasions when their glaring misrepresentations will have to be met. When this is the case, it should be done promptly and briefly and then pass on to our work." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Thirteen, page 346, paragraph 3.)




Walter Martin was really deceived. He said on this video clip from ankerberg.org: "Ellen G. White was a Christian; but she got into the idea of being the voice of prophecy to her own denomination. And she claimed that God gave her revelations, which we now know God did not give her. She plagiarized them from other people. Shamelessly I might add."

Sorry, but the first part does not match up with the second part. Would he have said that any other Trinity-denying, Christ-denying, Gospel-denying, Satan-worshipping, "shamelessly-plagiarzing" prophet was a Christian???!

Why isn't Charles Taze Russell a Christian?? He didn't even shamelessly plagiarize!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on April 15, 2006)
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1540
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,
Thanks for your charitable assessments. I wonder, Jeremy, if you have read as many whole books written by Ellen White as Walter Martin did? Martin spent several years reading all the major works of Ellen White. He read them in context. He didn't take quotes out of context like I've seen you do. Jeremy, I would take issue about Desire of Ages preaching a false Jesus and a false gospel. Whoever put that book together did a fairly credible job copying Alfred Edersheim, a Jew sho converted to Christianity. It would be a serious matter for me to call Alfred Edersheim's description of Calvary and the Resurrection, that someone copied from him a false Jesus and a false gospel. That is what I mean. Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy did not copy from other Christians, therefore there books could not bring people to faith, because Romans 10, says that faith cometh by hearing--and there are a lot of true Bible texts, and true gospel in Desire of Ages.

In fact, if anyone has a copy of DA, which I am looking at right now, there is actually a very good chapters on Calvary, and the Resurrection. But, if anyone didn't have an axe to grind, and they honestly read the chapters on the crucifixion and the Resurrection, I would challenge anyone to call this gospel false. It is plain outright lack of objectivity that would say otherwise.

Now, remember, I am not saying Ellen wrote these chapters, and if she did she copied them from good Christian writers. Does anyone else see my point about this? Did MBE or Joseph Smith copy evangelical Christian writers like Ellen (it was really copyists, and book makers)? All I am asking for is some reasonable objectivity.

Also, Jeremy, I do understand that there are no original manuscripts left of any Ellen's writings. I do know that copies exist in her own handwriting.

I am not defending Ellen White or Adventism. Some of you may think I have suddenly turned. I guess it is not enough to call traditional Adventism a system that is false, and founded on a false doctrine. The language has to be stronger, to make some happy.

Rejoicing in the Risen Christ,

Stan
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Satan-worshipping



This thread has gone way too far for me. Frankly I am offended. What is being posted now goes well beyond any credible criticism. I am convinced that it does far more harm than good. I'm done with this thread.
Randyg
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Username: Randyg

Post Number: 159
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan and Rick,

I concur with your assessment.

To much editorializing tends to reduce the credibility of the opinion, and makes one question the intent and objectivity of the writer. Vitriol and rancor are not as persuasive as candor and reason.

The contentious writings of Ellen White tend to invalidate themselves when compared to Scripture. I don't feel that any further haughtiness is necessary, or helpful.

FWIW IMHO,

Randy
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1190
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will also back out of this thread.

I truly have been blessed by your posts on the forum, guys. I am sorry for offending anyone.

I love you all and God bless you all! I am sorry for any hurt I caused.

Have a wonderful Resurrection Sunday, everyone.

God bless,

Jeremy
Dennis
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Post Number: 665
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the vault of the White Estate is tightly locked and the staff is less than seeker-friendly, lurkers and participants of this thread may be interested in further consulting some time-honored, factual, and objective book resources as follows:

(1) THE WHITE LIE by Walter T. Rea (409 pages)M & R Publications; Box 2056, Turlock, CA 95381.
"A thorough and factual analysis. It will receive wide attention for both its careful research and stimulating conclusions." --Walter Martin, PhD

(2) PROPHETESS OF HEALTH (Enlarged Edition; 335 pages) by Ronald L. Numbers, PhD; University of Tennesse Press, Knoxville, Tennessee. "Although Number's attitude toward White is respectful, dispassionate, and even admiring, the first edition of his book created something of a furor in Seventh-day Adventist circles." --Back cover statement

(3) THE DISAPPOINTED: Millerism and Millenarianism in the Nineteenth Century (edited by Ronald L. Numbers and Jonathan M. Butler; 249 pages)University of Tennessee Press, Knoxville, Tennessee

(4) WHITE OUT by Dirk Anderson (96 pages)

(5) WHITE WASHED: Uncovering the Myths of Ellen G. White by Sydney Cleveland (Foreword by Dale Ratzlaff)

(6) THE LIFE OF MRS. E. G. WHITE by Dudley M. Canright (this book, by Adventism's most notable heretic, is republished by Life Assurance Ministries)

"Truth invites examination." --Aristotle
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3762
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! I haven't "been" here since early this morningówhat a lot of emotion!

You know what? I praise God that He is sovereign, and He can redeem even our "family spats" for His glory. I'm also thankful for the diverse spiritual gifts He gives us: clearly some here are apologists, some are encouragers, some are teachers, some are evangelistsóand many of us have quite different "audiences" as our main focus.

Right now I'm praising the Lord Jesus for defeating death and for uniting us with each other in Him through the Holy Spirit. All of us who follow Christ are His body, and He asks us to "live lives worthy of the calling we have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace" (Ephesians 4:2-3).

I have learned a lot from each one of you; thank you for teaching meóI look forward to continuing to learn from each of you!

Right now we are on the verge of remembering the most astonishing event in recorded history: Jesus' resurrection! Just think what it must have been like in heaven about this time the night before the resurrection. Jesus' disciples were desolate and undoubtedly deeply depressed and heart-wrenchingly grieved. Yet God knew a miracle was in the making: in just a few hours, the earth would shake, and Jesus would come to life with a new, eternal bodyóvictorious, and Lord over all!

I can almost feel the tension of the darkest grief pressing those who loved Jesus, but the unseen, shattering life that was about to change hsitory and human reality eternally.

What an amazing Godówhat a wonderful Savior! And I praise Him not only for Himself but also for each one of you whom I truly see as part of my family. We are joint heirs with Jesus, and He is ministering His love and wisdom and understanding through us to a dark world.

Rejoice! He is risen!

Colleen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I just saw your reading list. Thank you!

Colleen

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