| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://sdaoutreach.org/Home/Articles/egwnix/tabid/487/Default.aspx
http://www.adventistreview.com/issue.php?issue=2006-1509&page=8 http://www.whiteestate.org/features/no-apologies-needed.asp | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2005 |
The E.G. White estate is more of a shrine to her then anything else. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3709 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, these two quotes you've posted say it all. While officially, many SDA leaders are trying to present a public "face" of being "sola scriptura", the internal "talk" of the leaders themselves tells the real truth. The message is clear: she is a prophet, and she is for today. But by quoting personal comments, people can "hide" behind the remark, "Oh, that's just HIS opinion." This very weekend one Adventist relative was describing their sermon this week, saying that the pastor declared Adventism taught "sola scriptura". When we asked how that could be stated while espousing Ellen, the response was, "The Bible says there will be prophets in the last days [their understanding of the prophetic gift], and Ellen fits the description of a Biblical prophet who agrees with the Bible. Therefore, because the Bible said there'd be prophets, Ellen can be authoritative AND we believe in sola scriptura, because the Bible said to expect this." Yes, it's convoluted...they're a "moving target", as Richard says! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 221 Registered: 11-2005 |
Remember http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/3841.html#POST50577 ? They really lay it on thick in the children's Sabbath School Lesson. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2005 |
I posted this on another thread, but also want to post it here. This is another important article linked to the EGW estate web site. It is called "The Dynamics of Inspiration". My husband and I have encountered tremendous difficulty in discussing the problems surrounding EGW with pastors because the first thing they say is, "well, what you have is a common misunderstanding of inspiration...". They then proceed to share with us the outline of the article I'm posting. http://www.egwhite.org/ Click on "issues and answers" then scroll down to "The Nature of Revelation by God" then click on "The Dynamics of Inspiration" by Juan Carlos Viera. Patria | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2006 |
One of the things I came across while researching EGW that really bothered me was an article written by Arthur L.White. It was an article titled "Ellen White's Experience & Writings". It was about how SDA's understand inspiration. In the article he wrote "As SDA's we are uniquely fortunate in approaching this question. We are not left to find our way, drawing our conclusions only from writings penned 19 centuries and more ago, which have come down to us through varied transcriptions and translations. Concerning inspiration, with us it is an almost contemporary matter, for we have had a prophet in our midst". He further goes on to say "What is more, rather than having in our possession only relatively short documents or a handful of letters, as is the case with the extant records of the Bible prophets, we have the full range of EGW's writings". The full article can be read at www.whiteestate.org/vault/Inspiration.html Anyway, I printed the full article and showed it to my pastor at that time. I told him as the Bible is, in my belief, the true word of God, I am quite certain that God is able to insure that His word comes down the years intact. He took the article, barely glanced at it and told me he would get back to me after he had a chance to read it. He never did. Toria | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2004 |
Can someone explain to me how "verbal inspiration" works? Was every word dictated by God, or did God tell them what to write and they wrote in the language of the day? As Adventists we were taught that it was thought inspiration.......just trying to come to an understanding. I watched the history channel last night and they were talking about the discovery of the Gospel of Judas. So of course now I have more questions about inspiration! | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 252 Registered: 3-2005 |
Schasc: First: in regard to what Christians know to be infallible, it is the autographa. We do not claim infallibility for the translations, though there has been so much manuscript discovery in the last few decades, that we can get a very close "autographa" in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek. I don't know offhand if other Christian organizations teach 'thought inspiration' or not. I DO know that if they do, SDAs pour a different meaning into it because Evangelicals believe in the infallibility of the Bible and SDAs do not. I suspect the answer to your question, though I'm no scholar, is "both". We know that God dictated the Mosaic Law to Moses. We also know much of the prophetic writings are from visions. Also, God was certainly capable of making sure that the words used were appropriate for the message He needed to get across. Maybe someone else has a better, more complete answer? Patria | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2005 |
Patriar -- good responses. I just had a thought, and question. Since we have been taught that God dictated the Mosaic Law to Moses, and that it is the very words of God talking directly, why is it different between Exodus and Deuteronomy? Also why would God change the 4th commandment between the two occurances? Not good for a "never-changing" 4th commandment! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3718 Registered: 12-2003 |
Elizabeth Inrig said something very insightful in her seminar at the FAF weekend when someone asked about "thought inspiration". She observed that God breathed His revelations to the Bible writers, as Hebrews says. It does not say He dictated, but that he inspired them with what to write. She said that just as Jesus is a miraculous, scientifically inexplicable hypostatic union of human and divine, and we cannot tease the two apart in His Person, so the Bible is a human and divine reality. Humans wrote itónot with "automatic writing" as Adventist like to suggest when arguing agains verbal inspiration, but they wrote what God told them to write. Neither can we explain away the words by saying, "That's just how they understood it; God really meant something else." I thought her explanation that the Bible is a divine/human reality that we cannot explain just as Jesus is a hypostatic union of human/divine was very helpful. Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2005 |
Another interesting quote from Nix. I doubt it is Sola Scriptura: "That Jesus not only forgives my sins but also empowers me to overcome them. I was taught that Jesus is preparing a people who are safe to save. I discovered that through accepting His freely offered robe of righteousness, Jesus is inviting me to be among those saved saints." In general I find Nix arguments to be more focused on how blessed HE is and how blessed the CHURCH is by the historic testamoni of the church. Help me - but I can't find much in the article that focus on the golden rule, and how our life should be committed to serve others - to build His Kingdom - even here and now. It reflects the focus on Christ's return - but what about now? /Dinolf | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen: Thank you for the clarification. I am often amazed at how much there is STILL to unlearn. It's interesting this thread came up when it did, because I've just recently been feeling impressed to delve into this issue a little deeper. That's when I printed off the "Dynamics of Inspiration" article from the White estate web site. Why is this important? Because we HAVE to know what's false about the "program" in our head. We have to backtrack and start at point "A", or rather allow God to take over at point "A", and go from there. At the Lincoln's FAF meeting last week, I was SHOCKED and disappointed that I was shocked  , to learn that the idea of Moses and Elijah going to heaven in bodily form, is the Adventist explanation to fit their state of the dead theology. So Grateful to be Free, Patria | ||
| Michelled Registered user Username: Michelled Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2006 |
Our serman last week at the Adventist church was via satelite. He (Shawn) was preaching about discernment of prophets, dreams, and visions. The last thing he said to tell if they are the real thing is that in vision, there will be no breath in them. Which I believe he got from one singled out text in the whole Bible (Dan. 10:17). He went on saying that he only knows absolutely of one prophet that fit all the definitions of the true not false. Ellen G. White, who when having a vision, apparently there was no physical breath in her. The congregation checked, and one man ran out of the church pale as a ghost saying "she's not breathing". Some of these 'so called' visions were lasting up to two hours he went on to say. So a few years back I studied open doorways that Satan can come in. One thing I studied from a book that I ended up getting out of my house was that deep meditation in Yoga can be a doorway. Examples of this are those that can be in deep meditation under water for even 30 min. at a time.I'm pretty sure this breath being held did not come from God. Well, the Adventist want to say that this breath being held must be from God in order for them to remain alive, but I think there can be another supernatural force, so lets not jump to the conclusion this must have come from God. Also, after reading Daniel 10:17, I came to the conclusion that it is talking about how Daniel was so weak and that there was not even a breath left in him. GOD IS THE BREATH GIVER!!! when we become so weak and humble before Him, he then can give us the breath we need! I do not see how they came up with this evidence of testing the spiritual gifts in this way. In fact, quit frankly it sadens me to think all those listening just take this word for it possibly with out question??? I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I have much concern about these beliefs that are being preached. God opens my eyes more and more, and I love Him for it, but my heart is saddened by this delusion many are under. In the meantime, for me, I must continue to be subjected to these teachings for a time until God tells me otherwise. For my husband will not leave nor will he take the children out of the truth! I will trust the Lord and be patient! He does encourage me, He is my strength. I do not want to become bitter in the meanwhile, so daily I call upon Him to teach me to show love to the ones I love. Even when I am being persecuted. This is so hard when it comes from your own husband. Anyway, I am going off on a tangent that I could talk about for hours. May God be in control. Michelle D. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3729 Registered: 12-2003 |
Michelle, I continue to pray for you. Your assesment of the "breathless visions" is accurate. Further, the Bible tells how to know if a prophet is true or not, and physical manifestations are never part of the proof. The proof is whether or not their prophesies come true and whether or not they speak according to the word of God. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2005 |
Michelle D: I am praying for your as well! May God open the eyes of your husband in His timing. And in the meantime, continue to give you the strength that you need. Much love, Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2005 |
Michelle D: I am praying for you as well! May God open the eyes of your husband in His timing. And in the meantime, continue to give you the strength that you need. Much love, Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2005 |
oops...I seem to have a knack for double-posting! Michelle D: I wanted to say, too, that it really is shocking how dishonest that information is. As Colleen pointed out, the Bible gives us the information we need to test a prophet's claims. Another point of interest (maybe because I'm a nurse with a brain-injured brother) is that it IS possible for certain brain injuries to cause seizures that cause a person to stop breathing for whatever reason. Given her history of being hit by a rock in the head, it's a slight, but feasible possibility. (I think) There's an interesting article on www.ellenwhite.org by two physicians, one I believe graduated from Loma Linda, who suggested this possibility. Patria | ||
| Lars Registered user Username: Lars Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 |
Michelle, Was that Shawn Logan? If so, with whom is he affiliated? Larry | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 155 Registered: 12-2004 |
Michelle, I received an email today from a good friend of mine that describes much of what you wrote regarding how to identify a prophet. It seemed to be coming out of nowhere, but I now understand where the ideas came from. Somehow not breathing, and holding a heavy Bible is proof enough for some people. Unfortunately little consideration is actually given to what she says, and whether or not it can be supported with Scripture. If it was shown in church I suspect it was from a Revelation sermon by Shawn Boonstra. Sighingly, Randy | ||
| Michelled Registered user Username: Michelled Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2006 |
Yes, I believe it was Shawn Boonstra, young guy who is doing a series of Revelation sermons via satelite right now. As he is Adventist, I do not know where he is out of. Thank you for your comments. Tommorow, Thurs night, I will be meeting with old friends of ours that encouraged me to seek the Holy Spirit in the first place. My husband is not happy and very opposed to this, as he believes the 'trouble' started with these people. Also, I will be meeting with a former Adventist that just moved back to this area. My husband thinks I am being beligerant in going against his wishes. I have made a stand last week that I will go where the Lord leads and will fellowship with these dear friends of mine until God tells me otherwise, just as I have not stoped going to church with my family, but it sure would be nice to associate and be around others not affiliated with the chrurch that I know I can trust to talk with and they will pray and encourage me in the Lord! There also is the possibility that our children may go to a non-denominational school next year. God is working, Please keep praying for my family, and thank you for your prayers. God is good, and I know all things are in His time. It does seem as though my husband is not really open minded, but I continue to pray!!! Sincerely , Michelle | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 794 Registered: 1-2003 |
God worked the non-denomiational school out for me too...I thought it would be impossible...but then through a sereis of events...my husband was in total agreement for taking them out of SDA school. A miracle. They have been out two years and what did I get in the mail last week but an invitaion to come for visitaion day at the local SDA school. At first I was really touched they remembered us and was like...maybe... But as I read through the letter, I was reminded why I didn't want them there...here is an excerpt. "Why an Adventist Christian education?" You might ask. In a recent worship with my language arts class, I asked the students, "What are your favorite Adventist things?" I asked three students of other faiths if they would respond first. "I have learned more about Jesus," Leo responded in her quiet manner. Her brother quickly spoke up, "Now I know what happens when someone dies." Emily said, "It goes with the bible better." Adventist students thoughtfully responded with answers equally as heart warming: We learn the history of the our church; I've learned that God is always accessible; Forgiveness is given anytime; We are told every day that God loves us! Pheeki: Part of the above is ok...part of it makes me ill. Favorite things about Adventist! For some reason making such a distinction bothers me...why not ask...What is your favorite thing about being a Christian? Teaching Soul sleep in school... Teaching SDA church history...which includes Ellen's prophethood and probably all kinds of legends surround her. Praise the Lord my kids are out of the indoctrination!!!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2444 Registered: 3-2004  |
Praise God,He arranged for me to take my son out of SDA school when he was in the 4th Grade. THANK YOU GOD. YOU ARE AWESOME. I will be praying for you Michelle. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3736 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, you're right. School is one of their most powerful indoctrination tools. Praying for you, Michelle. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 662 Registered: 7-2004 |
Michelle, I am praying this non-denominational school will work out for you. If this is truly a Christ-centered school there will be no better environment for your husband to witness the difference between light and darkness. Nine years ago, (I can't believe my daughter is about to graduate and be a high schooler!) we decided to try the non-denominational school at the last minute instead of the public school for our daughter's kindergarten (after I spied the little "naughty" neighbor boy trying to kiss her under our picnic table in our backyard! ). It was our plan to just go to kindergarten there and then to the SDA school for 1st grade (the SDA school did not have a kindergarten). The experience of being around happy, non-judgmental, kind Christians who talked openly of the joy and love for Jesus was what planted the seed that we were missing something as Adventists. God is SO sovereign...His ways and His timing is perfect. Give me Jesus! Denise | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2004 |
Shawn Boonstra is the heir apparent to Mark Finley.............he comes out of Vancouver Canada |
