| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1348 Registered: 7-2003 |
Since I'm a never-was SDA and my son's father is a die-hard SDA, my son is in quite a quandry. As I mentioned on another thread, I had taken my son to mcdonalds a couple of weekends ago and his dad took him to a park near one last night (his dad had told me that). I'm guessing Jonathan must have said something about a hamburger because this morning Jonathan asked for a hamburger. I said I didn't have any, and we'd have something else for breakfast. He then proceeded to tell me "hamburgers are yucky". I said where did you hear that? He said "my daddy says hamburgers are yucky". So, I told him I like hamburgers and they are not yucky. He said "no, daddys says hamburgers are yucky". Right or wrong, I concluded by saying "your daddy's wrong". But I am anticipating this is the first of many such conversations. I'm sure B is just trying to get his plug in for his perspective, but it puts me in a position to contradict his dad. And ultimately, I think Jonathan's going to learn to mistrust what his dad says....cuz he likes hamburgers, we like hamburgers, and eventually he's going to realize dad's wrong when he says they're yucky. On one hand, I recognize B has a right to teach his son whatever he wants, but on the other hand I see both of us giving contradictory information as ultimately being detrimental to Jonathan as he really won't be able to know which parent is "right" and may not be able to verbalize his conflict. That's a precarious position for a little guy, in my opinion, who should be able to trust his parents. So, do I say something to B? or not? Just give Jonathan my perspective and let him figure it out? Do any of you deal with that either at home or with extended family? What is the "right" thing to do? I am sure this is just the beginning of many conflicting points of view between his parents. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2005 |
Perhaps letting him know that some people think hamburgers are yucky and some do not (like, most Americans like hamburgers!). It is okay for people to be different. He doesn't have to think that hamburgers are yucky because daddy thinks so nor does he have to think they are good because mommy likes them. I would tell him nobody is wrong, people are just different and that is okay. I'm personally getting things I've said returned to me by my daughter. The other day she was telling me about Saturday being her day of rest. I didn't realize that though I didn't take her to church in recent years, I got this in her. She then went on to tell me we had to keep the law of God. She told me I told her that, so now, how do I tell her differently. I am focusing on Christ myself and praying for right answers. As mommy is taught differently, she can teach her differently and tell her why she believes that. She understands, but over time, she will understand more. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lynne: What a great opportunity to show your daughter the imperfection of yourself and the absolute perfection of God. I would take her right to Scripture...point out that it is the Word of God and that we can trust it because what it says is True. Though we never sent our kids to SDA schools, we have experienced the indoctrination from Sabbath School lessons and ideaology(that I taught). We have been very frank that we were wrong. Mommy and Daddy made a mistake because we only listened to people ABOUT God's Word instead of reading it for ourselves. Once we did that, we could see what it really says. We found out that those people we'd listened to were wrong. Melissa: I have said hamburgers (or whatever meat) is "yucky" myself. It was a front because I believed eating meat was unhealthy...even wrong, but I didn't know why! I agree with Lynne, though. Make it a neutral issue with your little guy. Like you said, they're smart...he'll figure it out on his own. In Christ, Patria | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2006 |
I infer from your post that you dont live with Jonathan and the kid live with you, if that is the case I advice you to explain to your son that people have diferents opinions about food and that in this case you and Jonathan dont agree. You can tell him that he can eat hamburgers with you without any problem. But when his father take him out he must obey and respect his father. You can also tell to Jonathan not talk about foods to the kid, since he dont live with your son, that you every day deal with your son and try to teach him to eat as healthy as it is possible. If you live with Jonathan, then I advice you to not contradict your husban in front the kid, but when alone with Jonathan you can talk in a respectful way and tell him that for you there is not problem with eating hamburgers in some ocasions. If he mantain his possition then you must respect your husban, for the gospel sake and in obedience to the word of God. Sinceraly, Rafael. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3735 Registered: 12-2003  |
Melissa and Lynn, I understand your dilemmas. We had to re-teach our sons as we learned what the Bible said. We had to show them how we had been wrong and take them to the Bible to read to them what it said. We had that same issue of contradictory influence, Melissa, because our boys' birth mom remains a conservative Adventist. Quite frankly, we kept going to the Bible to explain our positions and to show them how to know what the Bible said. We also told them they had to respect their mom when they visited her. I know Jonathan is young, but you can still back up thoelogical differences by referring to the Bible. I think the point about keeping food a "preference" issue is good. The underlying problem I suspect you may encounter, though, is that B will give his messages without that implicit acceptance of your view. I KNOW how much emotion lies behind those Adventist vegetarian "rules". After all, Richard has only been able to face his aversion to it within the past six months--years after knowing the facts in his head. Our younger sons still can't bring himself to eat meat, and he totally knows the issues and goes to a non-Christian college. Because I know that B will likely lace his messages with heavy doses of non-verbal judgment and "scientific" reasons why he is right, I think it'll be important for you to very calmly and without internal "franticness" tell himóas he gets olderówhy you believe as you do and what evidence there is to support you Biblically and scientifically. He will need reasons in order to make his own decision because the messages from B will probably be emotionally weighted. Your calmness, though, will be one of your most convincing tools, I suspect. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1349 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for all the advice. As Colleen hit directly on the head, there is not going to be a "personal preference" perspective given from B. His way is right, and anything that disagrees is inferior, if not outright dangerous. It is a constant struggle for me because with my ex-husband, when I'm concerned about something with the kids, I let him know. And there is some reasonable discussion, even if we disagree. He is willing to hear my perspective. Those same communication options don't exist with B. He is absolutely incapable of hearing any perspective except the one he is sure is correct and what's worse is he will attack the messenger if he can't discredit the information from some SDA source. I always catch myself wanting to have a reasonable discussion, but realizing it will only end up in him ridiculing me and my position and using some pretty low tactics to devalue everything I think....well, I just keep my mouth shut. As I was driving to daycare this morning, I thought all my friends teach their children John 3:16 as one of their first memory verses and my son is going to learn 1 Timothy 4:1-4 or Romans 14:1-5. How weird I will seem to them! But I know at least right now that is where his father's "teaching" is beginning and so I have to set the word of God firmly in place. He's such a precious little boy. I pray some day he will be able to see God through the convoluted and conflicting teachings he has yet to encounter. I just anticipate it will be very painful to watch...but I don't want to be reactionary...I want to be prepared. At least as much as I can be. | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi, Melissa! How old is your son? "I always catch myself wanting to have a reasonable discussion, but realizing it will only end up in him ridiculing me and my position and using some pretty low tactics to devalue everything I think." Boy, that sounds familiar: my son's mom is just like that. Is it just a coincidence, or is that the way kids are taught their Adventism, so that's how they "teach" in turn? My son is 12. He's been a self-imposed ovo-lacto vegetarian since around age 4. I believe that he became vegetarian under the influence of his extreme SDA grandmother. He denies it, but I am not confident that he can recall. He says it was his internal conclusion that meat is "yucky." Now he has a genuine aversion to meat. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. He drinks milk and eats eggs, so he's all set nutritionally. The fact is that meat is not very good for you. The typical American consumes too much saturated fat, and meat (and cheese) are the main culprits. So my attitude is that it's good for my son to be vegetarian, for his health's sake. What I resist absolutely, however, is any sense that it is a salvation issue. My impression is that, with SDAs, everything is a salvation issue. Make-up! Jewelry?! If Ms. White made a pronouncement about it, in her relenteless pursuit of income from her writing, then it is imbued with that terrible significance. Loving the Lord is translated into keeping Ellen White's two zillion rules -- even though she made them up and didn't keep them herself!  With B, I think you need a very direct approach, extolling the overriding authority of the Bible, right from the very start. Do it now. Instead of "meat is yucky", your line is "Ellen White is yucky, and she is the one who made up those things that Daddy says. We have to feel sorry for Daddy for believing those things. We believe the TRUTH, that God put into the Bible. And also, just so you know -- Ellen White who wrote all those things your Daddy believes? She ate chicken, and liked it! Even she didn't believe what she wrote." You have to be comparatively direct and forceful, because B will not show you any corresponding consideration, if you are gentle and avoid contradicting him explicitly, to your son. If he is like my son's mother, then B is emphatically stating that you are wrong, even (worse) you are deceived. That's a crappy message to give a young lad about his parent, but that won't hold back B, because he wields the truth (he thinks). By citing the Bible, you can make it less personal. It's not about Dad, it's about Jesus. My situation is doubly twisted in that my son's mother explicitly disbelieves in Ms. White. My son listens to his Mom and Grandma argue about it. I simply do not get how you can reject Ms. White and not reject Adventism. What is the distinguishing feature, if Ellen White is a fraud? The distinguishing feature of the Seventh Day Adventist church is adherence to proven fraud -- what kind of a basis for religious belief is that? With my son, my mantra is "It's OK to be a vegetarian ( or Saturday Sabbath keeper, or ... ) -- only IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE! We are saved by God's grace, the amazing gift of his son Jesus Christ, NOT by any rules we keep, NOT by what we eat, NOT by when we go to church." My son it getting it, I think. Be tough on B. He's not cutting you any breaks. You are fighting for your son's basic belief system. The Bible wins out. - Hoyt | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1350 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jonathan just turned 3 a couple of weeks ago. He continually amazes me with his attentiveness to things that are said. He has a good memory and can recite things I've said several days later, so I'm sure what he is saying is coming from his dad. I don't know that I personally buy that meat is "bad" for you. Excess of anything is, but I have tried to be "sensitive" to B...I typically buy meat that is free from "hormones and grass fed". I buy milk from the same sort of animals (doubling the price of milk). But rather than being at least mildly appreciative of my efforts, he is as you described exactly. I know this is the first of many issues. In Kansas, overnight visits do not start until 4 1/2 years of age, so to date he has only been exposed to adventism the few times B has taken him to his family's out of town. I realize the importance of teaching him scripture, but I also know B is going to jump in with his two phrases about pork being an abomination and somehow that is supposed to make all meat evil. As of yet, Jonathan is too young for those complex reasonings, but I'm going to pump the words of scripture into him just the same. I know that Jonathan will eventually realize when he's at Dad's he has one set of rules and a second set reign at home, but it's too bad the message has to be so complex and so completely contradictory. And you're right. In the long run, it affects how Jonathan will perceive the gospel. And in that respect, my actions now help set that stage. I guess that's why it is so important to me from the first issue to learn "how" to respond and prepare for the other things I know that will come. Thanks for the input. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 190 Registered: 4-2005  |
Melissa, At times we all probably have or do strain at a knat while swallowing a camel. We major in minors. The most important issue here is NOT hamburger or raw veggies and fruit, but are YOU totally submissive to God's perfectly wise providential working in your life? We all need to seek constantly to be fully surrendered to His spiritual molding as our Master Potter. Then God can and will be God for and through us in this and all situations. That's not easy to do. I wish with all my heart I could testify that I do it consistently. But the fact remains the ego self is so powerful and so subtle, even while we think we are sincerely praying for God's will and wisdom to guide us, we act out from ego's promptings, in ignorance and often unconsciously until later recolection of the situation and our words or actions are examined and then, too often, we discover that we left God's Molding Hand and went off to be "ourselves." The Spirit of Christ inspired Paul to write that "...he who is weak eats vegetables only." Rom 14:2 And adds, "each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." v. 5. It's crucial to do your best to teach that eating and drinking, etc. do not effect one's salvation as was pointed out above. What comes out of a person's mouth is what defiles him. (Jesus in Mt 15:11) A suggestion is submitted. In trying to explain what it means for people to have different convictions and perceptions and preferences of what is best for them, you might pick a food that you know is healthy, but that your son or you consider "yucky". It was Ocra when I was a boy, along with beets and cooked carrots. My mom served Okra in it's natural slimy nature, not fried, and I would gag with every bite. If you can find some food or even activity or sport or play that he or you or someone else likes, but which the other people or your son do NOT like, you may be able to get him to see that the thing or food itself is not "yuky" but the individual's personal likes and dislikes, their preference, their taste that determins what one calls "yuky" while another calls "delicious" or fun. Some like Ford's and think of Chevy's as "yuky." And visa versa. Some like a certain athlete, while others boo him. Some like the ocean, while others prefer the mountains. Some like flying in airplanes, others hate it. What WE think of things does not always determine whether it is good or bad, good for us or bad for us. And there are degrees, you can tell him, of "good and bad" - such as "that is not really bad, but this is "better" for you. What's more important than whether you eat a hamberger or not, is whether you balance your diet with a good salad, perhaps. Maybe these comparisons will help his young mind to make the connection, rather than feeling he has to yield allegiance to dad OR mom over the other. These are simple illustrations. But simple isn't always out of place. :c) At least when it comes to the challenge of parenting. Lighten up with it. Do your best to prevent balance and common sense, but always wrapped up in sincere, honest prayer for God's wisdom and to trust in the outcome of His providence. Rom 8:26-39. When we read Rom 8:28, we elect often neglect to notice the three letter word's true meaning...... "all" things, work how? "Together FOR GOOD...." for those "called" by God's choosing us (Eph 1:4-11). The disappointing, discouraging, painful, negative things as well as the good things. God causes ALL THINGS to work together as He wills them as sovereign God for our ultimate good. Your husbands strong personality or un-fair, possibly, approach to the hamburger thing, is not mightier than God. He may over-rule over YOU in this situation - temporarily anyhow - but he nor anything else in all creation, can go against God's providential, sovereign will. I urge us all to keep this "all things" in mind as we quote Rom 8:28.....which should really never be quoted singly, out of it's larger context of verses 26-30.....but tied in with the rest of the chapter. It's easy to overlook the bad things which are included in the word "all" things. But God uses both evil and good FOR the ultimate good of His elect, those "called according to His purpose." Rejoice, mommie, Christ is on your side! "The kingdom of God is not about what we eat or drink, but it's about righteousness and peace and joy IN the Holy Spirit. For s/he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men." Rom 14:17,18 (Dixon paraphrase) Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3742 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jess, you make a very good point. Melissa, I'm praying that God will teach and protect Jonathan and that you will have the mind of Christ as you deal with these things. I so know what you face! Truth is powerful, and Jesus in you will be a protection for Jonathan. God really does work out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. You can trust Him, and you can trust Jonathan to Him. Colleen | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2005 |
Melissa, From your many postings here, I think B will have a hard time overcoming the love of Jesus that shines thru everything you write (say?) with volumes of legalism. Those 2 extremes will stand out for him all by themselves. If he ever is told about it being a salvation issue, a very simple exercise is to ask where that is found in the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs. DT | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1361 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, DT. I really needed that encouragement tonight. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 294 Registered: 6-2001  |
My daughter is 3 also, and if one of her Adventist relatives told her meat was yucky I would remind her that she in fact does like hamburger and chicken, and just like she thinks peas are yucky, daddy thinks meat is yucky. Mommy also is not terribly fond of peas, although she eats them anyway. Logically, Hannah |
