| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jackob, Your last paragraph does make a good point. However, we cannot say who is and is not a genuine believer in the church. I personally believe I was deceived as an Adventist and many who uphold the doctrine are deceived as well. But exposing the doctrine I think is enough really for evangelicals to know that it is a cult. I would say definately to be sensitive to anyone in the church on a personal level about calling the church a cult. But like I have said, I also don't believe this church can be defined as not being a cult. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeremy: Re: It was my understanding (especially from reading his Proclamation article) that he believes a person can lose their salvation. I need to understand - it sounds like you believe that there is no way anyone can lose their salvaton? So IF Hitler was a Christian and was baptized and converted and accepted Jesus when he was 18 and then did what he did you feel that he is still saved? John Wayne Gacy the same thing? Or am I misunderstanding you? | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2005  |
Lynne You are right, we cannot say who is a genuine believer. We cannot read the hearts. I remember Walter Martin said that he recognized as christians those who follow the QOD interpretation of the adventist doctrines. The problem is that he had not seen the fact that the authors of the book misrepresented the true SDA nature. And he esteemed them as christians basing his evaluation on a doctrinal statement. Basing only on surface evaluation he was deceived. This external evaluation is not a safe tool to accept a genuine believer only for agreeing with QOD or other evangelical doctrines. I believe that we must maintain an open attitude, and God in time will show us by the fruits if someone is a true believer or not. My goal was to emphasize the need to correct the wrong impression which the word "Cult" can create. This label can create a barrier between the christian world and genuine christian adventists. It's an aspect which I believe must be presented to evangelicals. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2446 Registered: 3-2004  |
When anyone asks me what church I used to attend, I always say it is a church with many cult like beliefs and tell them the beliefs that are cult like. That seems to work for me. Diana | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2005 |
I had to chuckle today... My receptionist (who is a former JW) had lunch with another current/active JW member who is trying to bring her back to church. Anyway, they started talking about going back to church, etc. My receptionist mentioned to her that her bosses were former SDAs. She said her friend immediately responded with, "Your boss was Seventh-Day Adventist? SDAs are a bunch of kooks!" My receptionist couldn't wait to tell me that (we tease each other a lot). Kooks, huh? It's one thing that we were once part of a cult, but crazies?!  That's harder to accept . | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2005 |
Diana - I must say. If I dialoged HONESTLY with an Evangelical Christian about the "truth" in Adventism as taught to me (ie. Mark of the Beast & Sunday Worship, Satan carrying our sins, Salvation, IJ, Ellen White as Prophet, the War between Satan and Christ, how Satan shakes the Adventist Church and leaves Sunday churches alone and why, the End Times are now and the end is likely very, very, very, very soon... like ANY DAY and LIKELY ANY DAY!...). The Catholic Church is the Beast of Revelation and those who worship Sunday will receive that Mark if they don't keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the true test of the saints, the Commandments written in stone. How many Adventists just come right out and say it. NO. Seventh-day Adventists are brainwashed to not reveal this. Are we still keeping it in? These are the distinguishing factors between Adventists and others. This is it! (oh, and some people don't think you should wear make up, eat meat or wear jewelry - never wear a cross to church around your neck!) Can anyone here honestly tell me that other Evangelical Christians and the experts won't think this is a cult? The Seventh-day Adventists church is not synomous with Evangelical Christians and that is clear in the doctrine. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1529 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Here is Tim Oliver's SDA profile at www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm His primary reference source is Dale Ratzlaff's bood "Cultic Doctrine", and he says this is the best analysis of SDA doctrine that there is. I agree with everything Oliver says on this posting. However, Jeremy, you apparently think Dale is wrong when he says that SDAs have an orthodox view of the trinity and the deity of Christ. Or, am I wrong about that? Ken Samples, who wrote the forward to Dale's book has spent serious research into studying Adventism. He is a classical Reformed scholar who works with Hugh Ross. Are you saying that a man with those academic credentials is wrong when he says that Adventists do have an orthodox view of the deity of Christ, and the Trinity. Even Anthony Hoekema who included SDA with the cults of CS, LDS, JW agreed that SDA was orthodox on who Christ was and the Trinity. He called SDA a cult because of their unique eschatology (Sabbath, that all end time events centered on them), but Hoekema did say SDA was not as damning as LDS etc. Jeremy, I don't have a degree in theology. But, I have a difficult time believing that most of the great scholars, even those who despised Adventism, all said that it was possible to be Christian and be SDA, but it was not possible with the other cults. That is why Ratzlaff is correct. Jeremy, you may still be right, and I of course have not closed my mind, and will be re-evaluating my position as I research more. Desmond Ford, like Chuck Smith are both Arminians. Both of them believe it is possible to lose your salvation. Ford says you will never be lost as long as you are trusting in Christ. Chuck Smith says "you are saved as long as you are abiding in Christ"--So they are identical on that point. The difference is that Chuck Smith promotes the ministry of Dave Hunt, who says Calvinism is a different gospel, and that Calvinism borders on blasphemy. Dave Hunt is going to all the Calvary Chapels in S.Cal and is bad-mouthing John MacArthur because he is a Calvinist. Desmond Ford loves the Reformed writers, but unfortunately, he has taken their views on the Old Covenant and applied it to the Sabbath--which of course is more consistent. What is wrong folks, with just not using the term cult, since it is not found in the Bible? Is there anything wrong with Paul's terminology that "if anyone teaches a gospel different than he taught", that they are anathema? There is no stronger term in the Greek than that. Then, why not let God sort out the degrees of falseness? Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2005 |
Stan, Why are you using the word Trinity? It is not in the bible. If you don't think the word "cult" should be used, then nobody should be calling JW or Mormons a cult either. Why aren't you upset that Walter Martin named his book The Kingdom of the Cults. Fair enough? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1173 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, I have to ask the same things as Lynne. Also, I believe we need to use the term cult because that is the generally accepted term in Christianity--just like the word Trinity. We can't change everyone's vocabulary! So in order for people to know what we're talking about, we should use the word cult. You yourself keep using the word cult to describe CS/JW/LDS, Stan! So why are you criticizing the usage of the term based upon it being extra-Biblical??? I don't understand. Stan, I don't know that Paul (or the rest of the NT) teaches that there even are "degrees of falseness." I think that the NT teaches that if a doctrine/teacher/prophet/group is not Christian, it's not Christian. If it's false, it's false. Stan, you are right about my opinions on the SDA views of Christ and the Trinity. Regarding those who have researched Adventism, I don't think the new book by cult-watcher Elmer Wiebe, Who is the Adventist Jesus?, is saying that Adventism teaches the Biblical Jesus. Jeremy | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2005 |
Adventist do teach the trinity according to what the experts need to see on paper to look orthodox. But does it really mean to Adventists what it means to other Evangelicals? Also, though they write about Jesus in an orthodox way, they brainwash people to know a different Jesus. One that expects us to live by the law. So that teaching says his blood really wasn't enough, it is in no way grace alone. The Adventist Jesus was different to me than the Jesus I know now. I was taught a different Jesus, not the Jesus that the bible teaches. I was taught the Jesus that Ellen White wrote about. Are they only orthodox based on the fact that some people are saved in the group even if they are not told they are saved? Talk about confusing. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1174 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, Let me address the question of Adventism's teaching about who Jesus is, from just one of many angles. (There are many ways to prove that Adventism teaches a different Jesus.) The Adventist doctrine taught by the ancient heresies of Apollinarianism and Arianism (and similar to Gnosticism) that Jesus Christ had no human soul/spirit, has been denounced for centuries as heresy, because it denies that Jesus is fully human and also denies His deity. It is an antichrist teaching, according to what the Apostle John writes: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (1 John 4:1-3 NASB.) "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 1:7 NASB.) This antichrist teaching teaches a different Jesus! This particular heresy bothered John more than any other. John goes on to say that we are not to even receive these teachers into our house or welcome them. The Apostle John was so adamant about this, that it is recorded that he absolutely refused to even be in the same bathhouse as one of the Gnostic teachers. When he found out that one was there, he ran out without even bathing! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 12, 2006) | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2004  |
Yeah! From Irenaeus Against Heresies III 4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,7 departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.8 There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? ""I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."9 There is also a very powerful10 Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles. Jeremiah | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1175 Registered: 10-2004 |
John Ankerberg's research institute is the only one I have found who will even mention the above SDA doctrine: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/apologetics/AP0999W1.htm Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1531 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy and Lynne, Fair enough. Lynne and I actually had a discussion about this several months ago on another thread, but there is one particular thread where I threw out this concept for discussion, but not one person got excited about what I said then, but now, it is drawing attention. But, if you go to a thread called "CT article--loose cult talk", that was started by Mary on 2/28/06, then you will see my clear statement of this same concept. I have used the "cult" terminology on this thread to try to clarify something that I was convicted about clarifying. And that is that Adventism, even though it teaches a different gospel because it has a different authority than the Bible alone, and SDAs leaders are terribly guilty of perpetuating the White lie, that still with all of that, God has somehow seen fit to save many people in that system, despite bad theology. I did hear the true gospel growing up in Adventism,(once in awhile), and I do know that there are pockets in Adventism now that are preaching genuine Christianity. It would be dishonest for me to say that Randy Roberts is preaching a false gospel. It would be dishonest for me to say that Desmond Ford is preaching a false gospel. I also know that my Grandpa, Leo B. Halliwell, preached the true gospel on the Amazon river for 27 years. The stories he told was overwhelming evidence that the true Jesus was working in their lives. These stories would not be true in Christian Science. Having said all of that, I am announcing that I am renouncing the word "cult" for all groups except for those who the word should be reserved for--the UFO and Jim Jones types. So, how does this statement sound Lynne and Jeremy? "All groups that have a different authority than the Bible ALONE are false gospels. This includes SDA (EGW), RCC (pope), WWCG(yes-Armstrong is still there), LDS (Joseph Smith), JW (Charles Taze Russell--a former SDA), CS (Mary Baker Eddy), Oneness Pentecostals and Modalists (TD Jakes), extreme pentecostals (Benny Hinn etc). Galatians 1: 8,9 applies to some degree to all of the above groups, and most all know what it says. "If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel, other than what we preached, let him be ANATHEMA..." Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1176 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Hmm, it doesn't sound like the Apostle John's disciple, Polycarp, was worried about offending a false teacher! I also am reminded of Paul's language in the inspired Word of God: "I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves." (Galatians 5:12 NASB.) Or as the CEV puts it, "I wish that everyone who is upsetting you would not only get circumcised, but would cut off much more!" And in Galatians 1, he says of whoever preaches another gospel, "let him be eternally damned!" Or as Clarence Jordan's Cotton Patch Version puts it, "if anybody brings you a gospel different from the one you received, to hell with him." And the footnote says, "The Greek is even stronger!" Also, in Galatians 3:1, Paul says, "You idiotic Galatians! Who has bewitched you?" Folks, Paul would not have been afraid to use the word "cult"! And remember, the Galatian heresy is the Adventist gospel. Paul says, "To hell with Ellen G. White! To eternal damnation with her!" He would not go around saying, "the poor woman was misguided"! As Stan mentioned, the word "anathema" is the strongest Greek word possible that Paul could have used. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 12, 2006) | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2005 |
I've heard of the Seventh-day Adventist church being called a Christian Cult, perhaps this is due to their Christian teachings within a cult. The others, like JW, CS sound more like non-Christian Cults. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1177 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, you're really confusing me. You say that we can't call Adventism a cult and classify it as the same as CS/JW/LDS because there are certain people within Adventism who do not teach a false gospel. Then you say we should call the SDA church as a whole a "false gospel" and you classify it as that along with CS/JW/LDS and others! And according to what you said above, wouldn't calling SDAism as a whole a "false gospel" be even more "inaccurate" than calling it a cult, if there are individuals within it who do not teach a false gospel?? I am very confused--maybe I am missing your point? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 12, 2006) | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2005 |
Stan, I fully believe that God saved many in seventh-day adventists using the justification by faith doctrine adopted by the church, even if just in words, not in reality. This fact must be presented clearly to all evangelicals, and this is a feature which is not present in groups as LDS, JW, CS. I understand why you renounced the using of word cult for CS, JW, LDS. But changing labels at the same time for CS, JW, LDS and SDA will put SDA in the same place with CS. If you say "CS is a false gospel, SDA is a false gospel" the impression will be that, as long as someone cannot be for a long time a genuine christian and CS, nobody will be for a long time a christian and SDA. You still need to make the difference clear between SDA and CS. And if th evangelicals discover that you believe that CS and JW are not cults, and they believe, you will loose your credibility. They will think that you believe that these denominations are christian churches, because for them they are cults, unchristian churches. They still use the word cult for these groups, and I believe that we can't respond when we are asked "IS SDA a cult?" with "NO". What will happen if we are asked "Is LDS a cult?" and you will give the same answer "No". I believe that this will create confusion, because the normal usage of the word cult applies to CS and JW. Renouncing the using of this word in the case of CS and JW will create the impression that we no longer think that these groups are so bad as we all believe are. I'll come back later, to explain myself. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jeremy, sorry for plagiarizing you, we wrote at the same time. Smile | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1534 Registered: 3-2005 |
I will rest my case in using only the language of Paul. Sorry if it is confusing. If someone comes up to me and asks me if Joseph Smith, or Mary Baker Eddy, or EGW is a false prophet, then I will say yes. If someone asks me if SDA is as bad as CS, or LDS, or JW, I will have to answer that Adventism is not monolithic like JW, or CS, or LDS. There are more true Christians in SDA (as Tim Oliver accurately states) than in any other pseudo-Christian religion. These views are formulated only after many years knowing Walter Martin personally, as well as being his physician at times. We had long talks, and he was very happy that my dad and I were getting out of SDA. I remember one time when Walter Martin met my dad for the first time, and gave him a big bear hug. Martin was very conflicted. Because Adventism is so diverse and split up into clearly non-Christian groups as liberal SDA (see my post on goodnewstour 2006--outrageous update), and also clearly cultists such as the type of folks who post on Revival Sermons who are anti-trinitarian, and they elevate EGW to the level of the Holy Spirit. But then you have Randy Roberts, and Des Ford, and probably Lonnie Melashenko, who are clearly Christians. Therefore, as Dale Ratzlaff said, you cannot generalize about Adventism. It is late, and I have a very busy day tomorrow, so I will have to leave it at that. Stan |
