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Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 464
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have used the word cult or cultic to describe SDAism plenty of times. But I am forced to ask, do you feel that baptism is needed when leaving SDAism to join somewhere else? Would you answer the same for the other "cults"? Do you believe that the typical, average SDA member is a Christian with some confused beliefs or that they are not Christian? Would you answer the same for other cults? How about communion?

I know that my answers here are a little different when looking at SDAism than when looking at JWs, LDS or others. That is what has caused me to ponder whether cult is the right description.
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick,

Personally, my answers to those questions are the same as for the other cults.

I am confused about your last question, though, about communion. What about communion?

Anyway, I must agree with what Tim Oliver says, that "it's not inappropriate to consider such a church [SDA] as a counterfeit Christian cult, nothwistanding the presence of some evangelicals within it who don't know enough to get out."

Jeremy
Lynne
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Post Number: 346
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Understandably, nobody wants to be, or to have been affiliated with cults.

However, upon prayer and conviction through prayer, I cannot say that I believe the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not fit the definition of a cult. But because some people are saved in the church, that makes the church Christian also.

So it is my belief that the church is a Christian cult. The other churches are not Christian, they are just cults (JW, CS..).

Ric - I don't think rebaptism is necessary for some Adventists as it is for non-Christian cults, it is an individual decision. I do believe I was saved as an Adventist and I rededicated my life. I wasn't sure for a while if I was saved after all of the confusion. But now that I have my brainwashed mind back, I know that I was saved. However, now, I'm finding rules and rituals less important. My decision to be rebaptized was based soley on my hearts desire to start my new, new, life in Christ.

It is my understanding that communion is a bit different with Lutherans than with other denominations, so that might be more of a question to ask within that denomination for you and based on your personal conviction.

Now this is a good question to ask our Evangelical friends and to caution them.

Can Christians be deceived?

Can Christians be in cults?

Clearly, if the Seventh-day Adventist Church is both Christian and a Cult, then the answer to both questions above is emphatically, YES!

Therefore, we as Christians are perhaps not in danger of being in non-Christian cults. But we are in danger of being deceived into Christian cults.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church should be at the top of the list for warning other Christians against such deception.

Stan - Do you think Walter Martin would have sold a book called Kingdom of the False Gospel?
Perhaps you should not associate the word cult so much with the Peoples Temple type groups. And who are those people in those "extreme cult" groups (or weirdos you might say) that you should think so much lesser of them?

Adventism is not Extreme and it is Christian. But it is still a cult.

Pheeki
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is what I am up against at Revival sermons...unbelievable.



http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=838.new#new
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 347
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki,

Heresy. I know this may be strong language for some. But, tell me, when you were Seventh-day Adventist, didn't you know in your heart it wasn't totally about Christ? Weren't we Heretical, Christian or not?

Evangelism in Adventism is not really about Christ. But even as a believer and a Christian, when I was an Adventist, I would be lying to myself if I didn't say I was a heretic.



Jeremy
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Post Number: 1179
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, Lynne, the term "Christian cult" is often defined as a group which claims to be Christian but is not, and is used to refer to groups such as the JWs, LDS, etc.

Here is what Apologetics Index says about cults:


quote:

A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.

[...]

I have deliberately chosen the expression "cult of Christianity" in preference to the term "Christian cult."

1. Phrases such as "Christian cult" or "cultic Christian group" are confusing because they send mixed signals.

For most Christians, the word cult refers to a group that is non-Christian. Therefore, the expression "Christian cult" is an oxymoron.

2. The expression "cult of Christianity" makes a clear distinction between Christianity and cults as well as highlighting the derivative nature of cults.

[...]

Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith.

Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.




Jeremy
Pheeki
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Post Number: 796
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy...you might be interested to know that on the revival sermons site, there is a thread about how the GC has asked the churches to stop using the SDA abbreviation as it connotates images of LDS, etc.

They are asking that they use Adventist in their signs, etc. instead of "such and such SDA church".

If they weren't a cult, they wouldn't have to worry about it!
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1180
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki,

Yes, I've heard about that! After I read that I was determined to use "SDA" when talking about them! :-)

I would challenge anyone to read this list of marks of a cult, and identify even one of the points as not applying to SDAism.

Jeremy
Lynne
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Post Number: 348
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jeremy. Cult of Christianity it is then. That sounds accurate. There is no way I can look at what a cult is definatively and say it doesn't match the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1181
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just thinking more about that "decree" from GC headquarters that Pheeki mentioned above, I am realizing how cultic even that is in itself! For them to try to control even the language and words used by their members is proof that they are a cult!

To say, "You are no longer allowed to use the abbreviation 'SDA' because it makes us look like a cult to outsiders" really just shows that they are a cult. And if their members do use the abbreviation, they will be made to feel guilty for "bringing the cause of truth under disrepute," which EGW says will cause you to go to hell.

More mind control/manipulation.

Wow. It's totally amazing.

Jeremy
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 658
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All in all, it is important to remember that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was always considered a cult until they deceived Walter Martin into taking them off the list.

Dennis Fischer
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3743
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right, Dennis.

Colleen
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1182
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, that is an important point for us to remember, Dennis. In fact, even Walter Martin himself said that if the SDA church did believe/teach certain things about EGW, etc. that we all know they actually do, then they should be called a cult.

Here is a very informative article: Why Walter Martin Considered Seventh-Day Adventism Evangelical

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on April 13, 2006)
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 62
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some other words that may be used that would give an accurate assessment of Adventism.

Take a look at Webster's definition of cult, especially #3.

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/cult

"3. a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious..."

Then look at the definition of spurious, especially #2:

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/spurious

"2. outwardly similar or corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities : FALSE."

So we can use the words "unorthodox", "spurious", and "false", without actually using the word "cult".
Cathy2
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Username: Cathy2

Post Number: 125
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric,

I, too, have strongly used the term "Cult', personally, in my thinking, for teaching my children against the doctrine and to SDA family even (not that the SDA's appreciated it).

Yet, I grounded it in the "Anothers" from Galatians. And anything, at all, added to the Cross and Christ's power in us and for us, is another Gospel.

My sister was accepted by 'Profession of Faith' into Catholicism. I was baptized into the LCMS. It just depends on how the individual, local pastors and priests view Adventism. They are all different, from what I have seen. Many need education.

Lynne,

"Can Christians be deceived?"
Yes.
Scripture, the Apostles, the early Church Fathers, warn over and over about the false teachers, false teachings, devouring wolves.(in other terms, as well).

"Can Christians be in Cults?" Or vulnerable to cult technique, according to Lifton's 8 criteria?
Yes.
Accidently wandering into one, not being grounded in the Word; ignorant of scripture, as many Christians are these days, sadly. They are not being taught.

Anyone,

You can Google Lifton, Margret Thaler Singer, factnet.org and 'spiritual abuse'. Lifton's criteria are clearly defined and you can see where Adventism fits the techniques, if not the teachings of the weirdest, all out Cults, no scripturally-grounded Christian would join and 'Watchmen' and most pastors fully know to be Cults.

I studied Cults extensively back in 2000, when some things happened to me, which I did not understand, as a result of what I had been in, in the past. Some people, coming out of Adventism, do have a very hard time of it (some do not have the extremes others do) and need all the 'Exit Counseling' and support they can receive. It is extremely rare for an ex-Adventist or In-process of leaving SDA to find this. (One reason I am grateful that this board is here!)

I say this because of my own experiences, when younger, in Adventism and in other things. God delivered me before I knew a whole lot or even knew that he was delivering me in some situations, until hindsight. It was from scripture, I found my ways out. Also, all those memory verses from SDA Sabbath School and 12 years of SDA schooling, with some Righteousness by Faith youth pastors. The Holy Spirit used what he had in me.

Jeremy,

The fellowship of Communion--The Lord's Table--is for Believers. So, technically, spiritually, morally, a person in a Cult could not participate and fellowship with the Body of Christ at The Lord's Table without the danger of bringing damnation onto themselves.
Going by--1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Grace to you~
Cathy
choosier1@msn.com
Cathy2
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Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

Please, let me add, about Communion, concerning Adventists...I do not try to discern their hearts and status, concerning Christ.

The only Adventists I know, personally, anymore, are family. I am not their personal Holy Spirit. I do not determine their commnuion with their Lord, their fellowship nor their Eternal destiny. That's God's job, not mine.

I just wanted to make that personally clear, after what I posted on the general concept of Communion.

Blessings~
Cathy
choosier1@msn.com
Cathy2
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Post Number: 127
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For anyone interested, here are Lifton's 8 criteria, posted on 'Watchmen Expositor' site:
http://www.watchman.org/na/assist3.htm

'Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control:

1. MILIEU CONTROL

Control of communication within the group environment resulting in significant degree of isolation from the surrounding society. When non-members are labeled as ignorant, unspiritual, satanic, etc., group members conclude that outsiders have nothing worthwhile to teach them. Thus members are unlikely to look outside the group for information, especially spiritual information. Milieu control includes other techniques to restrict members' contact with the outside world and to be able to make critical, rational judgments about information: [This includes] not only the individual's communication with the outside, . . . but also . . . his communication with himself . . . Having experienced the impact of what they consider to be an ultimate truth, . . . they consider it their duty to create an environment containing no more and no less than this 'truth.' [The group member] is deprived of the combination of external information and inner reflection which anyone requires to test the realities of his environment and to maintain a measure of identity separate from it. . ."

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION

The claim of divine authority or spiritual advancement that allows the leader to reinterpret events as he or she wishes, or make prophecies or pronouncements at will, all for the purpose of controlling group members. "Ideological totalists. . . are impelled by a special kind of mystique which not only justifies such manipulations, but makes them mandatory... They are the agents 'chosen' (by history, by God, or by some other supernatural force) to carry out the 'mystical imperative,' the pursuit of which must supersede all considerations of decency or of immediate human welfare. Similarly, any thought or action which questions the higher purpose is considered to be stimulated by a lower purpose, to be backward, selfish, and petty in the face of the great overriding mission." "One is asked to accept these manipulations on a basis of trust (or faith). . . When trust gives way to mistrust. . . the higher purpose cannot serve as adequate emotional sustenance . . .feeling himself unable to escape from forces more powerful than himself, he subordinates everything to adapting himself to them. He becomes sensitive to all kinds of cues."

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY

Members are constantly exhorted to strive for perfection. Consequently, guilt and shame are common and powerful control devices. "The experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil. The good and the pure are of course those ideas, feelings, and actions which are consistent with the totalist ideology and policy; anything else is apt to be relegated to the bad and the impure . . . The philosophical assumption underlying this demand is that absolute purity . . . is attainable. . .. [B]y defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition. . .. Each person is made vulnerable through his profound inner sensitivities to his own limitations and to his unfulfilled potential. . .[i.e.,] his existential guilt. . . He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences."

4. THE CULT OF CONFESSION

Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed, either privately to a personal monitor or publicly to the group at large. "Confession is the demand that one confess to crimes one has not committed, to sinfulness that is artificially induced, in the name of a cure that is arbitrarily imposed." "In totalist hands, confession becomes a means of exploiting, rather than offering solace for, these vulnerabilities. . . The assumption underlying total exposure... is the environment's claim to total ownership of each individual self within it. . ..[T]he cult of confession makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility."

5. THE "SACRED SCIENCE"

The doctrine of the group is considered the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or disputing. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth. "An aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. This sacredness is evident in the prohibition (whether or not explicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions." "While thus transcending ordinary concerns of logic, however, the milieu at the same time makes an exaggerated claim of airtight logic, of absolute 'scientific' precision. . . the man who dares to criticize it, or to harbor even unspoken alternative ideas, becomes not only immoral and irreverent, but also 'unscientific." "At the level of the individual, the totalist sacred science can offer much comfort and security."

6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE

The group develops a jargon in many ways unique to itself, often non-understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phases which the members understand (or think they do), but which really act to dull one's ability to engage in critical thinking. "The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating clichÈ. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis."

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON

The personal experiences of the group members are subordinated to the "Truth" held by the group-apparently contrary experiences must be denied or re-interpreted to fit the doctrine of the group. The doctrine is always more important than the individual. "Another characteristic feature of ideological totalism: the subordination of human experience to the claims of doctrine. . . Consequently, past historical events are retrospectively altered, wholly rewritten, or ignored, to make them consistent with the doctrinal logic. . . the demand that character and identity be reshaped, not in accordance with one's special nature or potentialities, but rather to fit the rigid contours of the doctrinal mold."

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE

The group arrogates to itself the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Usually held non-literally, this means that those outside the group are unspiritual, worldly, satanic, "unconscious," or whatever, and that they must be converted to the ideas of the group or they will be lost. If they refuse to join the group, then they must be rejected by the group members, even if they are family members. "For the individual, the polar emotional conflict is the ultimate existential one of 'being versus nothingness.' He is likely to be drawn to a conversion experience, which he sees as the only means of attaining a path of existence for the future. . . The totalist environment . . . thus stimulates in everyone a fear of extinction or annihilation. . . A person can overcome this fear and find. . .'confirmation,' not in his individual relationships, but only from the fount of all existence, the totalist Organization. Existence comes to depend upon creed (I believe, therefore I am), upon submission (I obey, therefore I am) and beyond these, upon a sense of total merger with the ideological movement." '

Ric_b
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Post Number: 465
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So if a "Christian cult" isn't really Christian, as Jeremy has pointed out, should everyone who has left consider being baptized?

If SDAism really isn't Christian, what hope is there for the many loved ones and relatives that are still blinded by the deceptions?

Are you really ready to conclude that the "typical" SDA you know is probably not a Christian?

If I look at the descriptive characteristics of a cult, SDAism certainly meets some of these, but not all. If the general consensus is that a "cult" can not be truly Christian, what conclusions are each of us willing to make about SDAism.

Personally I could care less about what it say about me relative to where I have been. All that matters is where God has brought me and all the glory belongs to Him alone anyhow. But I do care if we lose credibility in a desire for others to have some idea of how bad SDAism truly is. Some feel that if it isn't a cult, then it must be OK. That is not the distinction that is being made here.

Since there is no single authoritative definition of a cult, it will be hard to agree on when to call something a cult. But I suggest that people apply the label and consequences of that label intelligently and consistently.
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1535
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick,
You have really hit the nail on the head. Credibility is so very important. There are many great scholars who know that SDA at it's core and foundation is founded on a false vision of EGW. But, even astute and discerning individuals like John MacArthur--who would really like to call SDA a cult--just can't do it. Geoff Drew, who is a member, and a close friend of MacArthur's, and who gave a powerful testimonial at our FAF reunion, has said that because of the diversity in Adventism, MacArthur won't characterize SDA as a cult. The fact is, John has met several SDA evangelicals, and he knows they know the Lord.

I am thankful that our gracious God has not abandoned SDAs. I am thankful there are still many shining lights in SDA. I cannot buy the fact that Desmond Ford--despite the treatment he received from the SDAs--is deceived because he refuses to call them a cult. Someone like Dale Ratzlaff, who sacrificed more than most people ever will, and was reviled, and, the vitriol is still hurled at him, and he is considered the anti-christ by so many SDAs. How is it, that even he will not call SDA a cult? Does anyone have an answer to that? Is he just deceived? He must know, that as a result of his pastorate, that many people came to Christ, and are still there. This phenomena could not possibly happen in Christian Science.

Why is it SO IMPORTANT that SDA be labeled a cult just like CS, Mormonism, etc? Is it not enough to say that their leaders preach a false gospel that was condemned in the strongest possible way by Paul? It is counterproductive to call SDA a cult. Because, we destroy our witness to the family and friends we want to influence. If Des Ford had come out swinging for the fences and calling SDA a cult, how many people would listen? I know my Dad would never have listened. Now he disagrees with me! (smiley)

Walter Martin did tell me that those who elevate EGW to the infallible interpreter of scripture, then those folks do rise to the level of a cult. He also was very adamant against those preaching a sinful nature of Christ. He said that rises (or falls) to the same level. But, he said, it would be very unfair to broadbrush Adventism, because it is so diverse.

As we approach the Easter weekend, let us all rejoice in God's grace (because it is only by sovereign grace that any one of us has been freed from the bonds of Adventism--it was not of ourselves). Let us rejoice that Christ won the victory on Calvary, and paid for all the redeemed sins at that very moment, and Christ defeated Satan at the cross. On that glorious Easter morn, Satan was defeated, and we can praise God that there is no more controversy between Christ and Satan. We know the winner in advance!

He is Risen, Indeed!

Stan
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 349
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Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric - I feel good that I was baptized again for many reasons. But being baptized again for anyone leaving adventism is a very personal matter that can be answered prayerfully.

I agree that people should apply the label and consequences of that label intelligently and consistently.

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