| Author | Message | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2006 |
Ric, Lifton's criteria (if, in fact, you were speaking to them) are only a loose guideline of method and results, not a concrete definition. It is entirely subjective to each individual whether one group or another is a Cult or only uses the methods to convert and retain members. I entirely agree with what you said in your quote (pasted below), plus allowing oneself to be led by the Holy Spirit, who promised to let us know what to say, when we needed to say something; not beforehand. "But I suggest that people apply the label and consequences of that label intelligently and consistently." I have come to believe that individuals in Adventism, who do not 'hear' are either not ready, yet, or their hearts are hardened, for whatever reason (there are many reasons!). YES!!! Stan, indeed, our unity is in Christ. Not terminology. Let us retain the love and empathy in Christ, which we have for each other, and in which Christ's Grace made us free from Adventism. When some of us say "Cult", God will use us. When some of us say "Another Gospel", God will use us. Personally, I have used both. May the Holy Spirit lead all and in both ways. Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 659 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ric, There is a vast difference between a "hope-so" Christian and a "know-so" Christian. Adventists proudly claim to be of the "hope-so" tribe. A highly respected, lifelong, devout, 80-something SDA man recently told my wife, "If I make it to heaven, I will be surprised." Ask most any Adventist if they are going to heaven and they will always reply, "I hope so." Their investigative judgment alibi will not allow a different answer. However, you may ask, "What about all those Adventists who no longer believe in EGW and the IJ (the so-called "evangelical" kind)?" Their response to the earlier question is exactly the same, "I hope so." As long as one believes in soul sleep, annihilationism, and conditionalism, they will remain "hope so" Christians at best. Sadly, the SDA view of death robs people of their position in Christ. The assurance of our salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. When my wife and I first left Adventism in 2000, a Jewish business client remarked, "Well, I thought you were already Christians." Sylvia quietly replied, "Not really." We certainly thought we were Christians as Adventists. We would also like to think we were respectable, wonderful people as Adventists. Learning all about the frightening signs of impending doom and scary beasts of Revelation is no substitute for knowing the Savior. We certainly had all the external "proofs" of being Christians as Adventists. However, our hearts were aching to know Jesus personally--not just knowing about Him. In his book, "Classic Christianity," Bob George says it well: "Faith is not simply a matter of the intellect...If you are a butterfly, you will never be happy living with the worms again! The power of the undiluted gospel to transform lives is unexplainable by any natural means." And all of God's people said, "AMEN." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3746 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cathy, you said, "When some of us say "Cult", God will use us. When some of us say "Another Gospel", God will use us. Personally, I have used both. May the Holy Spirit lead all and in both ways." I agree. I have used both, and when I use "cult", I use it consistently and with explanation. The Holy Spirit uniting us in Christ IS what makes us one. I praise Him for putting us together and for the fellowship of His Spirit that we enjoy. I praise the Living Christ! Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 195 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi all, In Hungary the general way of thinking is that anything is a cult that is not Roman Catholic, or using a slightly broader definition, not one of the four accepted "religions," which are RC, Lutheran, Reformed and Jewish. Everything else tends to be put into the category of cult, like Methodists, Scientologists, Baptists, Witches, Pentecostals, Adventists, Brethren, and so on. I met some Baptists when I was in Slovakia, and they said it is the same there. I have met people here who have been converted to Christ and joined a church like Pentecostal or Baptist, and some relative is sure to have made a comment like, "You should be careful, I heard of a cult once where everyone went down into the cellar, they took all their clothes off and had an orgy." Everything comes into the "cult" category. So using the word here may not be helpful for those reasons. I have called SDA a cult, but after making sure I define what I mean by that. On the SDA thing, they are pretty well always known as just "Adventists" here, even though there are three branches of them. If you say HNA (Hetednapi Adventista) people have no idea what you mean. Bye for now, Adrian | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 466 Registered: 7-2004  |
Dennis, I think that your desciption of growth being retarded by the false doctrines is very apt. I would agree completely. But you must be born before you can be concerned about growth. And I am firmly convinced that a great number of SDAs have been Spiritually born and are Christians. The problem with the doctrinal errors are that these teachings retard their growth and even cripple their experiences as Christians. But this still assumes that they are Christians and that they are saved and secure in His grace (even if they do not know it yet). I don't know that there is any other group that we would label as a cult that we could say the same thing about. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3749 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rick, interesting observation. I see a lot of Adventists being in the categories of the seeds in the Matthew 13 parable that fell either on the rocky ground or in the weeds. They sprout and even bear plants, but they have no roots or are choked out by wordly cares, and they die. I think there probably are more people within JW, LDS, and CS who are like the path from which the birds ate the seeds before they had a chance to take root at all. While a lot of Adventists appear to respond to the gospel, because of the deception hidden in the message they hear, they have some intellectual and even some heart response to it, but they respond to something that will not take root and surpass all other loyalty. They, I think, become some of those to whom the warnings in Hebrews are written. They have heard of Jesus and of His finished work; they even respond to it at some level and experience its poweróas Judas did. But when the heat's on, or when the financial and social pressures of life increase, those things reveal themselves as the most powerful influences on them, and they choke and die. There are many who have forms of godliness but without the power. Yes, because the gospel is in some way preachedómore in some places than othersópeople do respond. But because it's a different gospel, a lot of those who appear to be responding are doing so superficially and are really not truly rooted in Christ and saved. It's much harder to tell, because they espouse belief, but internally it's often a belief without roots or a belief with a divided heart. They need to be called and evangelized just as surely as those who haven't heard the gospel. Yet there are the elect among Adventistsójust as there are among the other cultic groups. Our former JW friends, for example, were looking for the godliness their church taught them to expect. The Holy Spirit opened Scripture to them, and they finally left. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1536 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, There is just something about the spirit of your last post that I find hard to reconcile. Somehow, SDAs who have heard the gospel and respond outwardly, in your opinion, the seed hasn't really taken root. That is so true of many other churches also. But, do you believe Randy Roberts is preaching a different gospel? Yes, most preaching in Adventism is a different gospel, but there are so many shining examples of exceptions. When you think of famous SDAs such as Dr. Ben Carson--that famous neurosurgeon who has shown the spirit of Christ so well, and his conversion story is miraculous. Then think of the word "cult". That would be atotal disconnect. Also the same can be said for Wintley Phipps, and the chaplain for the US Senate. The word cult is just not justified. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3750 Registered: 12-2003 |
OK, since I posted the last entry I've been increasingly bothered by my misapplication of the Matthew 13 parable. The parable is about the soils, not the seed. All four soils are present within Adventism and LDS and CS and JW. The seed is the pure gospel. That is missing from all four. Perhaps a better analogy is a "reverse innoculation". In the world of science, a vaccination "infects" a person with a dead form of a deadly virus and builds antibodies so the organism will contract a potentially fatal disease. Adventism, I believe, functions as an exceptionally effective "vaccination" against the pure gospel. Because it mimcs the real thing and has literal components of the real thing, people respond to it, but because they think they have the Real Deal, many are impervious when they're presented with the pure gospel. That aside, I still believe that many Adventists appear to be saved and to know Jesus when underneath they really don't. Certainly many are elect and pursue truth. But I believe the problem is that it so closely mimics the Real Gospel that people can embrace what they learn but not actually be born againóyet still be zealous for "God". There was a Christian cafe in Redlands a couple of years ago many will remember. It was called the Upper Room, and it marketed itself to all the evangelical churches in the area as a Christian hang-out. They sponsored Christian artists and worship bands on Friday evening and invited the public. Many local youth pastors promoted the Upper Room. It was Adventist, but because of its openness, it claims to be evangelical, its inclusion of all the local churches and youth groups, it was seen primarily as a benefit to the community. A youth pastor from a neaby Christian church was asked to come and lead worship one Friday night. He came and had a powerful evening of praising God. He told Richard later that the Holy Spirit was powerfully present. This man invited people to accept Christ; they had a great evening, and there was much heart response. After the evening was over, one of the co-owners, a young SDA man who publicly and in print promoted Jesus and serving Jesus and promoted his establishment as a place to find Jesus, went to that youth pastor and told him he didn't want him back because he brought in a "bad spirit". Within a year the Upper Room was closed down under a cloud of murky business dealings, etc. These people were seen as on fire for Jesus and said they were on fire for Jesus. Further, Jesus may well have His hand on them and be calling them to Himself in integrity. But this is the sort of "innoculation" of which I see a great deal. They say "yes" to something masquerading as truth, but it is not. God alone knows His elect, and He will draw them to Himself. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2005  |
I will answer only for myself: until I renoucne the Sababth keeping, I no longer knew what it means the righteousness by faith. I loved the gospel, the good news that Jesus died for me to live, to be just in God's sight only believing in His complete sacrifice which is enough for us to be saved. I loved to hear the message repeated, and read and re-read with eagerness the message of Romans, that by faith we are considered without blemish, we are elibareted from condemnation, and belieev with all my heart these gospel truths. But I was dead spiritually, I just longed to be loved by Jesus as the gospel presented Him before me. I love to hear the words of Jesus "Whoever comes to me I will never cast out" John 6:37 This is interesting. Even if I believed these words, at the same time I have a root of unbelief which cannot be removed. I was a slave of this unbelief. The sin kept me in its power, and the reality of my sinfulness was more powerful than Jesus and its power. The sin always won the battle. But only when I renounced the keeping of the sabbath, as a required work neccesary for acceptance before God, I was born again, and the Holy Spirit taked control of my life. Even if sin harrases me, I knew that Jesus Christ my Saviour is the Lord and Master of my life, not sin, no more sin has power about me. It was the change described in Romans 7, from the first husband, the law, to the second husband, Jesus. Until then it was an adulterous relationship between me and Jesus. I longed for Him to be my husband, but was only a wish, I really misunderstood what the cross has done, how it changes my ties with the law, with the power of condamnation. I believe many adventists are in this situation, but hope that one day they will be free, and christians. They are just "wish so" christians, they love Jesus, but as a lover, still being married to the law. From a biblical point of view, I was like they are now entirely under the law. I loved Jesus, of course, but at the same time wanting to be free from the sin and be with Him, but not to be free from the law, not from the sabbath. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 207 Registered: 6-2005 |
Amen Jackob, Praise God. We are now lovers of God, who stuggle with sin Rather than sinners who struggle to love. Try to wrap your mind around that one!! I pass that along, 3rd hand from Mike Bickle of International House of Prayer. A total different paradigm. A most excellent was to live. Free indeed. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2005 |
But Romans 14 said that some genuine believers esteem one dar above another. From the surface it We speseems that they are also under the law, but only God knews if they are just only weak in faith Sometimes I believe it's better to leave all in God's hands and not judge before time. Not long ago we have a dialogue about "kingdom against kingdom" and I remember Walter MArtin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" I believe that there are adventists who are in another kingdom, not in the kingdom of adventism. And because of this thing they encounter opposition. I personally prefer to use the term cult, because it fits the church not as a physical institution, made from chrstian and un-christian members on the record, but as a spiritul kingdom. Des Ford and others are spiritually in another kingdom. We have a saying in Romania, "With only a flower we can't say that the spring has come" In adventism is winter, always winter, not spring, or autumn. CS and JW are also in winter, they have a syberian winter, with very low temperatures all the time. But in adventism we have in some parts of it a winter without snow, with flowers which we see only in spring. But it is an abnormal winter, not spring. Spring is different than winter, even if winter can sometimes and in some places appear as spring Take the whole world in view, not only USA or Australia. More adventists live in countries like Romania when we have not a single man to preach righteousness by faith. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 467 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, the "other" gospel of Galatians was not so much an alternative to the Gospel, but rather having the Gospel and then adding new requirements on top of that Gospel. This seems to me to be an excellent description of what occurs in SDAism. It isn't that they don't know Jesus or the true Gospel. But they have added to that Gospel stunting the Spiritual growth of members. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 350 Registered: 10-2005 |
I must agree with Jackob. As long as we have the Sabbath, we have an adulterous relationship with Christ. No matter how some liberals try to convince people that marriage is not important, adulterous relationships lose out on that security and deeper love that connects people to each other who are faithful. And if He, that is Jesus, is faithful to us, putting laws in His place is adultery. I have yet to see a good ending in adulterous relationships no matter how glamorous they appear. But through Jesus, raised above all laws and all else, I have found safety and comfort. I will not argue with Scripture. That is my authority now. I completely see Adventism in this context in 2 Corinthians 3: 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. The bible tells me that no man can match the schemes of the devil - 2 Corinthians 2 ...........11 ............FOR WE ARE NOT AWARE OF HIS SCHEMES. I believe EVERYONE, including Christians, are NOT aware of Satans schemes. Ephesians 6 says: 10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Obviously, no theologion is above the intelligence of spiritual forces. None of us can match Satan. Perhaps our experience in Adventism has given many of us stronger armor because we have lived the experience. Whereas some theologians and individuals like John MacArthur, have not experienced Adventism but can, at a distance and by appearance, not see them as a cult. So obviously, if such great men can not see what is going on, no matter how educated any human is, we cannot match the intelligence of spiritual forces. That renders my heart FULLY and faithfully in Jesus. I can let Him understand all those things I can't and ask for His truth in what He wants me to know. But He will not share His beautiful secrets (like the Holy Spirit and discernment) unless I am faithful to Him. Why cheat on Jesus? He is so faithful! Only Jesus can give me sight and biblical understanding and truth, not any theologeon, not any man. If Satan builds a church and decorates it and names it and it looks like a church. Who are we as humans to know who the builder was? Ephesians 6:24Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love. That includes all those sincerely seeking Him - Adventists, JWS, Catholics, Jews, etc... | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 468 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lynne, By your argument above about the adulterous relationship Sabbatarians have with Christ being the indication of cult status, I think you would have to include most Baptist, Presbyterian, and Reformed churches (all those that follow the Westminster Confession) into the same boat with SDAism. At least if you are going to apply your criteria consistently. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 351 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ric - I did not mean to connect the word Sabbath with cult if it sounded that way. I am not saying that because of the Sabbath, that makes the church a cult. My personal esperience with the Adventist church, aside from the Sabbath, tells me it a cult by definition. If it were just the Sabbath that made them different, I could not say they were a cult. Struggling with sin and seeing the connection to our sinfulness and the law doesn't make Sabbath keeping a cult. I've been to a variety of Adventist churches, some more evangelical. And I must say the the Adventist message, behind the scenes, is above the message of Christ. And that message contains the law, sure. But in addition to the law, the Adventist church is deceptive like other cults out there. I also think the problem is what Colleen has said before, foundational. Many other churches, even those like the Sabbath keeping Baptists have a foundation based on grace. Whether some Adventists are trying to appear evangelical or truely think they can reform the church, they are in an cultural environment with doctrine that is structured in the same way as other cults. Nevermind that it was built to look like a real church. It is the builder that sets the foundation. I know the jews have the same struggles with the law as Adventists, but that doesn't make them a cult. But the Amish???? No, I'm not trying to start something here. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1183 Registered: 10-2004  |
Rick, No, it is not just adding to the true gospel! The Galatian false teachers are not teaching the true gospel and just "adding" to it! If they add to the true Gospel, then they are teaching a false gospel and are not teaching the true gospel at all. That is what Paul says. In Galatians 1:6-7, the Greek says that it is "another of a different kind of gospel which is not another of the same kind"! Paul does not say that those who teach this false gospel are saved Christians! He twice pronounces eternal damnation (anathema) upon those who teach another gospel, in verses 8 and 9 of Galatians 1. It is clearly a very, very serious matter. If someone believes that they are justified by faith and then they must sanctify themselves by works to go to heaven, they are not trusting in Jesus to save them. It's that simple. Rick, you wrote:
If I believed that the typical Adventist was a Christian, just like a typical Presbyterian, Baptist, etc., I would not be trying to help Adventists or expose Adventism so much! If they are Christians just like people in other churches, then why should we spend so much energy and effort trying to help them or expose the teachings of Adventism? Why not concentrate our energy and efforts of evangelism on those who aren't saved? Why should we do like the Adventists do and try to evangelize saved Christians??? How likely is it that members of a group which doesn't even believe in being born again or truly actually being saved, which even denies the existence of a spirit which even can be regenerated, have been born again? Of course, I believe that some Adventists are born again, especially of (and not limited to!) those who were "converted" from Christian churches and were deceived by Adventism (and who perhaps joined not even knowing all the doctrine or what they really teach). "Since there is no single authoritative definition of a cult, it will be hard to agree on when to call something a cult. But I suggest that people apply the label and consequences of that label intelligently and consistently." I totally agree with you on that, Rick.  Stan, You wrote: "It is counterproductive to call SDA a cult." Maybe for some who are in the SDA church. But it is highly productive for evangelical Christians to be warned in that way. Stan, you wrote:
But there are also statements from Walter Martin where he said that if the church officially taught that EGW was the final interpreter of Scripture, then the church as a whole should be called a cult. And as we all know, that is what the church teaches. They say she is a "continuing and authoritative source of truth." Anyway, I have to agree with what Colleen says in her posts above. I think she is right on. Also, I think Jackob makes a very important point. We cannot evaluate Adventists or Adventism based solely on North America, when only about 7% of Adventists are in North America! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 14, 2006) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 469 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, I agree with you that the false additions SDAs have made to the gospel are dangerous heresies. If you understood what I said differently you were failing to understand my point. The Galatians started with being saved through faith, but then began adding in lawkeeping as the "next step". In order to have begun in faith, there must be faith, i.e. a Christian--even if a deceived and stunted Christian. There is plenty of reason to expose the errors and falsehoods of SDAism even if you consider many of the members Christian already. Because the deceptive doctrines of the church have robbed these people of their assurance, their joy in Christ, their understanding of being Spiritually alive and so many other things. These false doctrines result in great damage within their lives and interfere with their ability to express the fruit of the Spirit and be the ambassador's of our Lord's love that they could otherwise be. I am unwilling to accept the premise that the vast majority of SDAs are unsaved. I see a clear level of difference between SDAs and those who are consistently labelled cults. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 470 Registered: 7-2004 |
That said I think there are several teachings and practices of SDAism that are very cultic: A reliance on deception; Extra-Biblical source of authority; Confusing sanctification and justification; Questionable views on the Trinity and the nature of Christ; Viewing themselves as the Remnant; and Adding effectual lawkeeping to grace as a requirement of salvation. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1184 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick, I should have made my point more clear about the Galatians. Yes, the Galatians were saved. Yes, they had faith. But they were not in the same "boat" as the Adventists! Not at all! They had had the true gospel preached to them by Paul and had been born again. Then, later, these false teachers came along and were teaching a false gospel. These teachers were not teaching the true gospel and then adding to it. They were teaching a totally different gospel of "a different kind"! If the Galatian church had not been "righted" by Paul, then these teachers would have continued teaching this false gospel of faith plus works and the "next generation" of the Galatian church would have been just as lost and damned as the false teachers were. Paul makes it clear that the false teachers were not teaching the true gospel and just adding to it. He says that they were teaching a totally different gospel and were not Christians. Those being deceived were Christians because they had received the true Gospel from Paul and been born again. They were a true Christian church founded by the Apostle Paul. Therefore, we cannot say they were the same as the Adventist church. But if the Galatian false teachers had founded a new church and taught their false gospel, then those who believed that gospel and had never believed the true gospel, would not be Christians. And then their church would be just like the Adventist church. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 14, 2006) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 471 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually it would probably be more like the MJ's than the SDA church, but your point is well made. |
