| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2005  |
On Feb. 23, 2006, Goldstein wrote an article in Adventist Review, called Deductions. In it he goes so far as to recognize that there are indeed former adventists who left the church and are now christians and are doing fine in the evangelical churches, had not become atheists, satan worshippers, or homeless degenerates. Interesting indeed. But a "real" adventist, Kevin Paulson wrote a counter-article, which I want to emphasize. Paulson finished his article saying
Well, he contradicted Goldstein proposal to preach the justification as the only basis for salvation, and discarded the power of the scapegoat adventist message.
Paulson contradicts Goldstein on many point, but especially his evaluation that there are formers who are doing just fine. He said:
I'm offended by this statement. Because we had been in the adventist church, we have been spiritually abused, or some bad things happened to us. Because sin affected us and we discovered our need of Jesus, we are not credible! But if we were all right, if we had no sins, if we had nothing bad in our life, why we would need Jesus? The lost sheep was lost, or not? It was lost, of course, disoriented, and .... But Kevin is going to say that Jesus cannot saved one of these lost sheeps, because these sheeps cannot study objectively the Scriptures. Kevin attacks also the Proclamation
For him, we will have credibility only after twenty years of being out of adventism, and I'm not sure than even after this period he will believe us. I guess that this is because of his circular reason: adventism is truth, everybody who leaves adventism leaves the truth, embrace a lie, and becomes a lier, without any credibility. Next comes the final attack:
I meet this mentality many times. I'm interested of your responses to it, how you responded to this mentality. I'm short on answers to this psychological issue, because there is something so close to truth. On an old thread it was discussed the situation of a former who returned to SDA, and the explanation was given that he was tied to the SDA belief. Paulson seems to say that we are tied by another thing, by invisibile ties which makes us to stay close to adventism, and threw stones. What is your reaction and answer to these assertions? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1548 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jackob--excellent post! I believe Goldstein is a genuine believer. He reflects it in his asessment. Because, if he believes former SDAs are doing well, then, Adventism isn't necessary for salvation. Mr. Paulson teaches the opposite. I've got news Mr. Paulson, at 24 years out of SDA, by God's grace alone, I have never been happier, and more content in my faith. It just gets better every day. Soli Deo Gloria, Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 474 Registered: 7-2004  |
There are 2 very different ways to look at why a number of former SDAs are still tied to SDAism. Paulson chooses to think that this validates SDAism, because some of us "can't really leave." But it could just as plainly be seen as a deep love and concern for families and friends that we believe are being hurt by a false gospel. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rick, What you said, ditto here. Stan, What you said, ditto here. Jackob, Thank-you for sharing this article by a "true" Adventist apologist. This continues to be the mindset of many either consciously, or subconsciously. Your comments and reactions reflect my feelings as well. Randy | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 743 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hm, the reason I keep in touch with formers is to keep clearly in my mind the issues folks leaving the denomination face. AND always I am watching for a name I recognize....hopeful that those we knew through those years have finally found freedom. We left the local congregation nearly 20 years ago. Our leaving the denomination came more slowly. I guess we have been totally free of the cesspool of SDA teaching for around 15 years. I couldn't be happier! There is absolutely no way I would consider giving up what we have now to go back to living under the cloud of condemnation inherent in SDA teachings. Man, man...the difference is like darkest night and brightest day. What is my "present faith"? Mr. Paulson? Jesus Christ ALONE! | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 192 Registered: 3-2005 |
The thought has occured to me that former Adventists staying in touch could say more about the cult like grip the church has on it's members, former or not... Much like like Mormons and JW's and others who have been brain washed, it takes time to process and regroup. Commumity helps regroup and heal. Supporting each other on this journey is allowing the church be what Christ had in mind when he created us as church. I praise God my spiritual status is not effected by the SDA's institutions opinion of my spiritual status. It's based on the blood of Christ. We will be witnesses "in Jeruselem", in Advensitm, as we allow the Holy Spirit to become an active member of our heart to those still trapped under the law. Lisa | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1355 Registered: 7-2003 |
So, which article reflects the "true" position of the SDA church? Or does it merely reflect the dichotomy of views within the church? It would seem to be hard to know what the SDA church believes if both opposing views are supported. A true house divided. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 198 Registered: 4-2005  |
I say shame on Kevin Paulson for calling God's amazing sovereign-saving-grace "pseudo-grace" and the foundation of the Reformation a "pseudo-justification-alone salvation." He may have to eat those words in the judgment. It seems nearly impossible for a traditional Adventist to speak one sentence without it containing the words, "Ellen White, 1844, and the Sabbath." The angels and elders surrounding the throne of God say only, "Holy, Holy, Holy." I like old Spurgeon's words, especially when he refers to his creed. He said: "I am never ashamed to avow myself a Calvinist. I do not hesitate to take the name Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed, I reply, 'It is Jesus Christ.'" Amen Brother Spurgeon, AMEN! | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2005 |
Well - If you read what the Loma Lionda University Church believes : http://www.lluc.org/index.php?option=com_na_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=17 you might think that Goldstein was closer. <grin> | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2455 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jackob, Thanks for posting the article. Amen to Stan, Ric, Lydell, Lisa, Jwd. I second your thoughts heartily. Yeah, The LLU church does not have totally Adventist beliefs. And Jwd, I, also agree, with Spurgeon. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3772 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodness, Jackob--Kevin Paulson is truly a classic Adventistóbut he also tends to alienate even the mainstream Adventists. He is a true-blue, Ellen White-believing Adventist who does know true Adventism, but he is also divisive and difficult. He attended a Friday evening presentation Dale Ratzlaff made at Trinity Church about six years ago. Paulson and his cohorts were outspoken and even rude in their questioning of Dale during the Q & A period. I doubt that most of the Adventist "thinkers" and theologians would openly admit sympahty with Paulson simply because he is so hard-line, historic SDA. I agree 100% with your reactions to Paulson's assesment. He uses circular reasoning and makes conclusions that ignore the evidence. First, he puts all "formers" into the same "pile". I know that the majority of people who leave the church do go into no religion, agnosticism, or just plain cynicism. What many of us here have experienced, however, is another "category" of "former SDA": the category of those who, by God's intervention, awoke to the gospel and FOUND JESUS. They accept Him as their Savior and honor Him as their Savior, the source of their completed salvation, and their true Sabbath rest. These are the "formers" who truly trouble Paulsonóyet he will not address them separately from all the formers who leave for emotional or political reasons. If Paulson addressed those who leave the church as a result of Bible study directly, without lumping them in with those who left for other reasons, he would have almost no argument. As it is, he refers to those who left the denomination 25 years ago during a "purge" and compares their fate with those who left as a result of personal study. For example: Those who were fired after Glacier View did not, mostly, leave the church. They were left adrift professionally, and many of them found jobs in more "liberal" conferencesósuch as those in Southern Californiaówhere they found sympathy and acceptance from others who questioned Adventist dogma and politics. While its true that many of those fired during that time were embracing a much more Biblical view of justification and salvation than the official church doctrines teach, most of those people were still "hooked into" Adventism in deep ways, and many attempted to make new lives for themselves with new jobs in the church. Some eventually drifted away as time went on; some, like Smuts van Rooyen, are still Adventist and are again employed by the church. Others went on to deeply examine their Adventist roots and heritage and left the denomination intentionally, finding new ways to minister in other Christian venues. Jerry Gladson is an example of this category. All those who leave the church because of finding the true gospel, end up having new lives as Christ-followers. Those who leave, however, because of political pressure or "unfair" treatment tend to go into no religionóor into a very liberal "spriituality". Keving is assuming ALL who leave are in the latter category. In fact, a growing number are in the category of those who personally search the Scriptures and come to KNOW Jesus. Their lives will look very different from those who have intellectual disagreements with the church but fail to deal with the spiritual issues of the denomination. As you said, Jackob, everyone experiences hurts, wounds, bad thingsóEVERYONE! Those who open their hearts to Jesus' healing develop new lives with Him. Those who don't tend to become cynical, drop out of attendance, and "disappear" eventually. What Kevin will not address is the loyalty, power, and confidence that comes with knowing Jesus. Those who leave for the sake of the gospel don't look back. Those who leave by default still have cultural ties to the church. As for remaining closeóyou bet we're close! Many of us are children of, spouses of, parents of, friends and colleagues of Adventists. You can't get much closer than that. Of course we have a burden for shining the Light on the darkness we know so intimately. The apostles stayed closed to Judaism, tooóPeter's ministry was to Jews, and even Paul always went first to the synagogues and preached until they threw him out before addressing the Gentiles in any new city. As for Paulson himselfóI can say this about him: he a more honest Adventist than most. Unlike those who try to polish the church's beliefs so they appear more evangelical, Paulson is absolutely true to historic Adventism and Ellen White. He has a brilliant mind, and he has truly studied Ellen White and knows her. He is a true Adventist, and he's not ashamed to defend true Adventism. Because of his true-blue Adventist mindset, he MUST find a way to discredit the conversions of many formers and to cast doubt on their relationships with the Lord Jesus. He MUST do this because the prophet he endorses has said we formers are lost. It's crazy-making to argue with him because he does not have his mind opened at all to seeing Scripture from a different perspective from that Ellen has taught him. But he is at least consistent. A great many leading Adventist teachers, preachers, and administrators are not consistent and are not personally loyal to Adventist teachings. What holds them is that spiritual/cultural hold that is the legacy of Adventism. That hold is what Kevin, without identifying it consciously, recognizes exists, and that hold is why he assumes all those who leave are still bound to Adventism. Those who become free in Christ and walk away from the church are not looking back. This is the fact Kevin cannot recognize. Colleen | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2005 |
I went to SDA academy, College, and nursing school,back before you obtained degrees. Every year I took a Bible class. I really felt that I didn't need to do the doctrines any more, they had been dinned into my ears so long--so I read portions of the Bible but not with a lot of inquiry. I think that SDA's who leave and then return, if not for family, it is because they haven't really studied for themselves without the overridding influence of all the indoctrinization they have gone through. So they leave, then return because it is all they know--I may be wrong, but at least that is true for some. I am not sorry to disappoint Kevin Paulson, but he is mistaken!! Peggy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3773 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW, if anyone wants to understand Goldstein's pattern of reasoning and his approach to apologetics, read his not-too-lengthy book, "Grafitti in the Holy of Holies". It is his rebuttal to Dale's book "The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists". I read the article to which you refer, Jackob. I am deeply struck by Goldstein's confusion over the obvious fact that many people are leaving because of personal Bible study. He can't endorse the exodus, but he can't easily contradict their reasoning although he doesn't endorse it. I'm reminded that I need to pray for him. As a formerly observant Jew, he has deep ties to the law. I believe that God wants to bring him into complete freedom. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1549 Registered: 3-2005 |
I am actually very surprised by Goldstein's admission. Because, he admitted in the official church paper that there are many former SDAs who are doing well spiritually, and are Christians. I think he deserves a lot of credit for saying that, since as Colleen pointed out, Ellen White would never admit that. She allowed for those who "have never heard the 'truth' to be saved, but never those who left the 3rd Angel's Message." Ever since Goldstein's hatchet job on Dale Ratzlaff in the book "Graffitti in the Holy of Holies", I have been following Goldstein's interviews and writing in various papers. I believe he is honestly conflicted, and by his answers at times, I question whether he truly believes what he teaches. But he appears to be slowly changing, and at least if he admits that you can leave SDA and be a Christian, then that is a tacit admission that Adventism is not what saves. I pray that Mr. Goldstein will come to terms with Biblical truth, and I would not be surprised if at sometime in the future, he might be "one of those bright lights that go out" as Ellen White used to say. Stan | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2005  |
Kind of along these lines, has anyone heard about "The Ten Commandments Twice Removed" by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn? I received a critique of this new book that is being made available freely for Adventist churches to share. An Adventist pastor in the area is advocating against the book because, in particular, its analysis of the old & new covenants and Mosaic vs. God's Law isn't based on SDA Commentary or EGW writings. He says that if this book is given to those who know their Bibles, it will make it easier for them to reject Adventist beliefs. [If that is true, let's help them spread the book far and wide!!! (grin)] Cy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3774 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cy, yes, I know of the book. In fact, one of our Adventist relatives gave it to us to read. Richard did read the whole thing, underlining as he went, and it does not use EGW overtly to defend its cause. It plays with Bible texts fast and loose, and it comes up with traditional conclusions, but it is a work of confusion. 3ABN is pushing this book as a "freebie" right now in preparation for the upcoming Ten Commnandments Day on May 5. They are hoping to sway Christians to "see" the fourth commandment in an Adventist way at a time when many Christian churches will be focussing on the law. It's almost surprising to see how easily the Galatian heresy is being broached within US Christianity right now. The focus on the law, the added push of 3ABN to do a widespread push for the Sabbath... Yet the gospel remains unchanged and powerful, and God's saving grace is still at work. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3775 Registered: 12-2003 |
Just FYI, here's the link to an older thread where this particular article of Goldstein's was posted a couple months ago: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4013.html#POST52860 I read Goldstein as being determined to match internal SDA techniques to the demands of today's SDA questioners. I get the feeling that Goldstein is frustrated by the whole reality of people leaving Adventism for good reasons. I do suspect that his own cognitive dissonance is possibly increasing... Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 472 Registered: 8-2004  |
This reminds me of the reality that God is working on the hearts of people we don't expect. How careful we need to honestly face and deal with error, while at the same time remembering that the very people who are teaching error are also men and women for whom Jesus died and lives again. How close to God we need to press - that we not overstep and discourage someone who is secretly seeking, and at the same time that we not 'softpedal' so quietly that our witness is blurred and obscured. It is my prayer that God will give to each person as much of a view of reality as they can handle, and that He will continue drawing each person to Himself! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1555 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Mary--always appreciate the grace you bring to the forum! A mention was made above of Smuts Van Rooyen. I am sure many of you are familiar with him. He used to work directly with Desmond Ford at GNU. He and Ford were a direct blessing from God to my life as I was transitioning out of Adventism. It would have been so much harder if not for their faithful preaching of justification by faith alone. I was one of those somewhat upset when I heard that Smuts was pastoring back in Adventism again at Riverside Community Church where my parents were attending. However, I would go regularly with them. This was when my Dad needed to hear the gospel more clearly. Smuts preached "the gospel plus nothing", and "nothing but the gospel". That church was thriving then. My Dad asked him many questions, but I never heard of a time when Smuts ever discouraged my Dad from leaving SDA--which of course he eventually did. But I can't help to think--what if Smuts was not there? What if Ford was not there? Why would I think today that it is any less important to have men like these still preaching the gospel--as long as they are allowed--in a false theological system like Adventism. There is such joy to be released from the bondage of Adventism! So at this point, I will praise God for the fact that Smuts Van Rooyen is still preaching the gospel in Adventism. I will not judge his motives. All I know is that our Sovereign God has purposed that men like Smuts still be allowed to preach the gospel even though some of us might wonder why. I think that Ford, Smuts, and others know that the message they are preaching logically is antithetical to historical Adventism. Just maybe they are not one of the either deceived or dishonest men. I just want to give thes men the benefit of the doubt right now. Also, what if it were theoretically possible for a former Mormon bishop to stay in a certain segment of Mormonism, and get away with preaching the true Jesus and the true gospel? Would anyone quarrel with that? All people, no matter what their labels need to hear Christ preached. Paul, in Phillipians, clearly states, that he doesn't care from what motive Christ is preached,-we should nonetheless rejoice because Chist is preached! Amen? Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 425 Registered: 7-2004  |
Amen! As closed off (mentally if not physically) as so many Adventists are from other Christians, I'm sure God can and does use "SDA" ministers to reach SDA people with the true Gospel. If nothing else, it sometimes helps create enough cognitive dissonance that some are motivated to get to the bottom of what the Bible teaches and if or how that differs from traditional Adventism. |
