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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 5 » Sanctuary Doctrine--Spurgeon vs. Ellen White » Archive through April 22, 2006 « Previous Next »

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Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1550
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I ran across a very delightful sermon from Phil Johnson's Spurgeon Archive, where in 1885--at the same time Ellen White wasteaching the unique SDA doctrine, it seems that Spurgeon had Ellen in mind when he preached this great sermon on the true meaning of the sanctuary--Christ dwelling among us. This sermon is awesome!

www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1862.htm

Stan

Dennis
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Post Number: 667
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Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

I downloaded Spurgeon's sermon. Sylvia will read it and tell me about it. Thanks for sharing the link.

Dennis Fischer
Dennis
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Post Number: 668
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Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

I may have sinned! :>) I recently attended a class at a local Presbyterian Church entitled, "Was Jesus a Calvinist?"

Actually, is was an excellent presentation on Calvinism vs. Arminianism (with an emphasis on the history of each view). The instructor was a former Nazarene who shared some of his legalistic upbringing.

Dennis Fischer
Artman29
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Post Number: 1
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Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
This is Andy, just wanted to thank you for helping me out getting registered and everything! I am so excited to be able to talk with other former Adventists!
Windmotion
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Username: Windmotion

Post Number: 293
Registered: 6-2001


Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Artman, and welcome to the forum!
Introductorily,
Hannah
Artman29
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Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hello, I wasn't sure if anyone would be on!
I talked with Dennis on the phone about an hour ago and he said that they were in the process of getting my account up and running!
Artman29
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Post Number: 4
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Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, you are a former adventist as well?
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1551
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Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
The doctrine of the sovereignty of God is taught through out the entire Bible.

There are really only two religions in the world. One religion is man centered based on free-will, and the other religion is based on free grace. The best article I have seen on this topic is from the New Covenant theologian, John Reisinger, who wrote a great article on this
www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index004.htm

Adventism is Pelagianism in its traditional form. But so is so much of American Christianity. There is no difference in the writings of Charles Finney and Ellen White. They were both works oriented. R.C. Sproul documents that most of evangelical Christianity is to one degree or another either semi-pelagian, or outright pelagian in an article he wrote called the Pelagian captivity of the church which is linked here at www.modernreformation.org/rc01pelagian.htm

You mention Jesus being a Calvinist. John 6 is very clear. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him.

Stan

Doc
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Post Number: 196
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Stan,

How are you? I've not been here for quite a while, though I see we still don't agree :-)
I don't want to get involved in a silly bickering match, though I think your comment on just two types of relgion is a false dichotomy. It makes an oversimplification.

I think there are three types which can be distinguished.
One extreme would be that man is groping in the dark trying to find God by his own efforts. Many religions would fit into this category. These efforts are hopeless because man is sinful and therefore separated from God.
The other extreme is that God arbitrarily decides to save a handful of people but not the majority.
Both of these views could be regarded as "monergistic" as it is either all man or all God.
A third view would see salvation as being essentially a relationship between man and God, which God desires, but which is impossible due to man's fallen condition. So God in his grace provides the means for man to be reconciled, which is the gospel. This means of reconciliation is now available for man to accept or reject, as he sees fit.
As a relationship has to be two way for it to be any sort of satisfactory relationship, then this view is synergistic.
I happen to believe that this third view fits the overall teaching of the Bible better than the other two. I hope you don't think that that makes me an evil person, trying to lead people astray :-)

By the way, I have read a little of Ellen White and some of Finney's autobiography, and there is no ressemblance whatsoever. Finney describes his conversion experience in detail, and I can find nothing there to criticise.

God bless,
Adrian

Jwd
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Post Number: 199
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adrian,

You write: So God in his grace provides the means for man to be reconciled, which is the gospel. This means of reconciliation is now available for man to accept or reject, as he sees fit.

Does it not suggest that if man chooses to accept Christ's reconciliation, that man has done a good thing? Certainly so!

Yet Paul writes in Rom 3:12 "....there is no one who does good, not even one" quoting Ps.14:1-3; 53:1-3; Ec 7:20)

Luther said that on the bondage of the will in sin, that this "is the hinge on which all turns," and the ground on which the gospel rests. In his "The Bondage of the Will" Luther goes into great detail to make this plain and Scriptural. On pg. 137 hs says "free-will belongs to none but God only." On pg. 201 he makes this strong point: "Apart from grace, 'free-will' by itself is Satan's kingdom in all men."

If man can do one thing good, then man gets credit for that good and "all glory" cannot be given to sovereign God.

Just something to consider.

Jess
Raven
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Post Number: 424
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple months ago, my husband (Ric_b) put together a complete list of every text in the New Testament that uses the word choose, chose, chosen, etc., and there are a lot of them. If I remember correctly, there is not one instance where any text indicates we choose God; instead every single text talks about God choosing us. I thought that was kind of interesting, especially in light of the emphasis in much of Christianity on the importance of us "choosing" Christ. I realize that in a sense believers are "choosing" Jesus, but that couldn't happen without God making the first move. And it is amazing how silent the New Testament is about our choosing Jesus.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3778
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, Raven. The New Testament does talk about our "believing" in Jesus, but certainly it does refer to "choosing" as being God's act. I agree that we can't say "yes" to Him unless He first works in our hearts to make it possible. Ephesians 2:8-9 seem to confirm this quite strongly.

Colleen
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3779
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andy, welcome to the forum! We're glad you joined us, and we look forward to getting to know you. I hope you will be blessed by the people here as much as I have been!

Colleen
Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1554
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adrian,
I would like to discuss this with you further. But did you read the link above by R.C. Sproul? He describes in detail how bad Finney's theology was. At least, the way Sproul describes Finney, you might start to think slightly better toward Ellen White. (smiley) I can come up with reams of documentation showing that Finney even might have been more Pelagian than Ellen White. (smiley). However, Charles Finney DID NOT claim to get visions directly from God, and that would be in his favor.

BTW Doc--it is great to see you back on. I remember you from the thread we had on Reformed theology last summer. Welcome back.

Stan
Ric_b
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Post Number: 475
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we are going to venture down this path again, allow me to make a disclaimer at the start. I don't believe that our understanding of how we came to believe in the Lord is salvational, only that we do believe in Him. Synergism vs Monergism is certainly an interesting topic, and it had a number of implications for how we understand God. So I do think it is worth discussing.
Dennis
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Post Number: 670
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

Thanks for the great links (Reisinger and Sproul). I am in complete agreement with them on this important, salvific topic. By the way, Modern Reformation magazine has excellent, scholarly articles.

Dennis Fischer
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3784
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Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great statement, Rickó"I don't believe that our understanding of how we came to believe in the Lord is salvational, only that we do believe in Him."

At best we struggle to explain this miracle of God! I praise Him for removing the veil and for continuing to reveal the mystery and miracle of His sovereign, saving grace.

Colleen

(Message edited by Colleentinker on April 19, 2006)
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello All,

Rick,
The important thing is that we believe in Christ, agreed! And praise God that we can agree on that one. And another thing I should like to say, is that I am not trying to claim I have all this worked out, and I do find it useful to bounce ideas off other people.

Jess,
Hi, I don't know if we have met before, so, nice to meet you.
I don't think I can go along with the idea of accepting a free gift as being a good work. Paul was a Jew, so he would have had works of the Jewish law in mind when he said salvation was not by works.
If someone wants to give me a free gift, it seems to me it is just as much free if I stretch my hand out and take it, as it is if I wait for someone to put it in my pocket when I am not looking. It is still just as much unmerited and deserves no credit at all. I just do not think this is a valid argument.

Raven,
I agree that we are chosen, that is clearly Biblical, but I do not know if the Bible states we are chosen for salvation. It may do, I just haven't checked it. It seems to me that God's choice of us does not necessarily guarantee salvation. For instance, Saul was chosen as king, but could hardly be said to be saved at the end of his life. The whole nation of Israel was chosen to represent God to the world, but they failed miserably.

Hello Mr. Fonz!
I didn't really specifically want to get into an arguement about Finney, one reason being, that it is often not too edifying just to argue about whether a certain person is sound or not. I did say that I read the testimony of his salvation experience in his autobiography and it sounded great! I do not know what sort of salvation testimony Ellen White had, so I can't comment.

Continued below,
Adrian

Doc
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Post Number: 199
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Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Interestingly enough the president of the breakaway traditional Adventists here in Hungary (Christian Advent Fellowship) is called Reisinger Jˇnos, which is John Reisinger. I guess these two gentlemen would have rather different theologies!

Just a general comment, which I hope won't offend anyone. This site is advertised (I believe) as being a forum for Former Adventists, their friends and family. I fall into that category as a friend of a former Adventist. I myself have never been Adventist and I have never been Calvinist either. I am Evangelical, I had a specific conversion experience in 1979 and have been walking with Jesus ever since. I have developed my views on faith and theology over these many years, and have examined quite a few different theological systems. I consider it highly unlikely I will ever become either SDA or Calvinist. I think they represent two extremes of a false dichotomy, as I mentioned above. (all man / all God, legalist / antinomian, however you want to look at it).

Having said this, I hope this forum will continue to welcome, and not condemn as heretics out of hand, Christians who for reasons of conscience are unable to accept Calvinist views. And may even like Finney, for instance (grin).

God bless you all for now,
Adrian
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 200
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Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Interestingly enough the president of the breakaway traditional Adventists here in Hungary (Christian Advent Fellowship) is called Reisinger Jˇnos, which is John Reisinger. I guess these two gentlemen would have rather different theologies!

Just a general comment, which I hope won't offend anyone. This site is advertised (I believe) as being a forum for Former Adventists, their friends and family. I fall into that category as a friend of a former Adventist. I myself have never been Adventist and I have never been Calvinist either. I am Evangelical, I had a specific conversion experience in 1979 and have been walking with Jesus ever since. I have developed my views on faith and theology over these many years, and have examined quite a few different theological systems. I consider it highly unlikely I will ever become either SDA or Calvinist. They both give me cognitive dissonance! I think they represent two extremes of a false dichotomy, as I mentioned above. (all man / all God, legalist / antinomian, however you want to look at it).

Having said this, I hope this forum will continue to welcome, and not condemn as heretics out of hand, Christians who for reasons of conscience are unable to accept Calvinist views. And may even like Finney, for instance (grin).

God bless you all for now,
Adrian

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