| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2488 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cw, asked this question twice and I do not know what the answer is. So I thought I would make a separate thread and let all you answer it. Diana "You know, I have more questions and comments than you folks probably have time for. Such as, out of the hundreds or thousands of so-called modern prophets, what makes one in particular, in this case EGW, the only true prophet? Do not Adventists believe that all the others such as Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ruthorford and Russell, Moon and others I would have to look up, false prophets? What mind-set makes that one true among all the others?" | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 437 Registered: 7-2004  |
SDA's believe EGW is a true prophet of God because they believe she passed the Biblical tests of a prophet and they believe the others did not. It's really that simple. Of course, they also believe EGW's teachings match the Bible's teachings. If any SDA would bother actually investigating EGW with each of the Biblical tests of a prophet, they could easily see she miserably fails them. Instead, SDA's focus in on the claims that EGW would be in vision for 1/2 hour or much longer, and not breathe during that time. And because in one of Daniel's visions he said he "had no breath" in him, they decide that's clearly a mark of a true prophet. When in fact, "no breath in them" is not even one of the tests of a prophet. As far as SDA's believing EGW agrees with the Bible, it's really circular reasoning. SDA's only know EGW's interpretation of the Bible, and since she agrees with the way they see the Bible, she's considered a true prophet. A favorite quote of SDA's is "to the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them." EGW speaks according to how they see things, so she's right. They use this same quote to refuse to listen to anyone who disagrees with any SDA doctrine. If you believe in immediate life after death instead of soul-sleep, nothing you say is worth considering, because you don't "speak to the law and the testimony..." If you worship on Sunday instead of the 7th day Sabbath, nothing you say is worth considering, because you don't "speak to the law and the testimony..." It's amazing and clearly a working of the Holy Spirit that any SDA leaves for fellowship within the body of Christ. (Message edited by Raven on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2004 |
Maybe I haven't fully answered everything CW is getting at with the question. It does seem strange that SDA's only have one official prophet (albeit a dead prophet by now), and yet there are many who have claimed to be a prophet. I guess they see it validating that there are so few, in fact only one, instead of many - because "narrow is the way that leads to life" and "broad is the way that leads to destruction." The Bible doesn't say how many true prophets there will be, but it does say there will be "many" false prophets. I don't think SDA's are against the idea of an additional prophet or two. Every so often it seems someone is making a claim to prophethood, and I think the General Conference has evaluated some of those claims. The latest one that comes to mind was posted about here around 6-9 months ago. Anyone remember that SDA guy in Kansas who has visions while driving a school bus? And SDA churches have actually accepted him into their pulpit to tell his experiences. What shocked me was when the link was posted on this website to his picture in the SDA church local to us in Ohio. That was freaky to think someone like EGW was talking about his visions in a church we used to attend, and people we knew were listening to him. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2006  |
Thanks Raven, I guess that never having believed in the writings of ANY modern day prophet it's a foreign concept to me. I tried to explain that to my daughter once but I guess I was not speaking to the law and the testimony? I may have taken for granted all these years the privilege we have in Christ as our Mediator. I don't have to run the Word past anyone-it's given as a gift from God directly to me, with no middle-man, or woman in this case. There are some learned and well respected men of God and I thank God for them. But if one gets off the mark, such as Swaggart or some of the others, I'm free to write them off if I want to. J's dad told D that EGW is not a prophet but she was a great teacher. Yet they are 100% SDA. So would they tell an out and out lie to gain a convert? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3835 Registered: 12-2003  |
That is a freaky experience, Raven. I think you covered the EGW/true prophet question well. I remember distinctly sitting in jr. high and learning in BIBLE class, no less, why EGW was a true prophet and Joseph Smith was false. I remember having questions about how one could be absolutely sure of one's own prophet, but then realizing that Ellen was clearly the only one who "passed the Biblical tests of a prophet"óand feeling oh-so-smug that I was NOT in a cult like all those Mormons were! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 490 Registered: 8-2004  |
CW wrote: "would they tell an out and out lie to gain a convert?" Frankly, yes they would. But to their minds it would be not be a lie, per se, just a careful speaking of the truth. In other words, semantics. For instance, they could freely say that she 'did not claim to be a prophet', but they would neglect to point out that she considered her work to be MORE than that of a prophet: She was 'the messenger of the Lord'. They would honestly be able to say that the Bible is their rule of faith and practice and that they would throw EGW out if she disagreed, and at the same time teach that 'we have more light now', so, since 'the light' has moved since Christ's time, they would read the Bible THRU anything EGW wrote about it - and then how could there be a contradiction? As another example, we used to say that vegetarianism is preferred though meat eating is allowed - and neglect to mention that meat eating (by those who are EGW literate at least) was considered a dangerous thing that could prevent you from being 'translated' (still living when Jesus comes and ready to meet Him). Many Adventists are taught to say they're 'allergic' to meats (or in some cases, unclean meats), or to refuse meats for 'health reasons,' rather than say 'my religion teaches me not to eat meat.' (in the Reform Movement, meat eating was NOT allowed, on pain of church discipline). Some are taught to say 'Christian' when asked what religion they espouse, rather than Adventist, unless they have a reason to believe the person they are talking to is 'interested.' It saved on long explanations, kind of like saying 'fine' when someone asks how you are. (In the Reform Movement, besides saying 'Christian' if asked, we could just say Adventist instead of 'I'm a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement' and make the need for even LONGER explanations!) I was raised in Adventism (third generation on one side, fourth on another. Ministers and church workers on both sides), and I can testify that even when the logical contradictions are pointed out, many people will simply blank out and seem unable to admit that they ARE contradictory, sure that somewhere down the path the disseparate lines will converge; others will become defensive and say that 'the truth' is under fire, and the fact that you are persecuting them is evidence that they are 'in the truth' for what else but persecution could your questions be? Many do know Jesus in the Adventist church and its 'breakaway groups', but very few have assurance of salvation apart from their own works. Sometimes they are able rejoice that God loves them, and at others they agonise over whether 'when their name comes up in review' they will be saved or lost. Over whether, when they have to 'stand without a mediator,' they will be strong enough to stand or will be one of those who almost made it. Over whether they have confessed EVERY sin (for even an unknown sin can lose you, according to EGW), whether they measure up. In my own case I gave the church the benefit of the doubt for years, sure that they must be right, and trusting that if I studied long enough and hard enough I would come to the same conclusions the church had. As it happened, I did not! And when I personally came to the place where I saw that the Bible taught one thing and the church (and EGW) another, when my ignorance was challenged by reality, I had to choose whether to continue to assume that 'I just hadn't studied long enough' (which was becoming a cop-out), or to accept that I and my church had been wrong. It was around that time that I got some of the best advice I could have had at that time: Give it to God and ask Him to take Adventism away if it was not from Him, and to confirm it if it was. He took it away. What Joy to know that God is soveriegn! That our salvation is assured! That Jesus actually did finish the work given Him to do on this planet! That I am saved by His grace alone! Not by my lawkeeping, not by my good works, not by my birth (unless you count my new birth, which was totally God's doing anyway) or church association. Jesus IS enough!! The Bible became a whole new book now that I didn't have to constantly say, that's what it looks like it says, but it MUST say this other thing instead. A LOT of 'problem texts' that I'd wrestled with and argued with, and tried to understand suddenly became clear. (er, it says this or that and actually means it!! It wasn't 'just worded poorly'!!) God not only confirmed to me that He had taken SDAism from me, He also gave me new and closer understandings of Himself. He gave me peace that I'd never known before. And he has sustained me in the storm that broke all around me because of my choice to leave SDAism (and the Reform Movement - which is a smaller and stricter version of the SDA church) Life hasn't been easy since, but I can testify that God is good! He has brought beauty from ashes and the oil of joy for mourning - even though my mourning is not all over yet! In the world we will have tribulation, but we can be of good cheer for HE has overcome the world! Blessings, Mary (Message edited by helovesme2 on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2006 |
Mary, you're hired. Wow. CW | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1586 Registered: 3-2005 |
Excellent post Mary! I will say that the SDA Reform movement is just as bad as Mormons, JW, and Christian Science. They exhibit what Walter Martin would truly classify as belonging to the Kingdom of the Cults. Your story is so inspiring, Mary, and you and your family are in my prayers. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 364 Registered: 10-2005 |
Having come into the church on my own, by choice. I would have to agree with Mary about "it would not be a lie, per se, just a careful speaking of the truth. In other words, semantics." I knew some Adventists who never opened Ellen White. I was only told that her writing would help me understand the bible. I was also not told I had to be a vegetarian when I asked, I was just told it was encouraged. I was drawn to the church by the logic, the health message, the bible and my desire to become a Christian and associate with Christians who had a healthier lifestyle and appeared to be more conservative as well. The Adventists I knew never pressured me to believe certain things. The church just taught me and I accepted the church and remained in my box for many years. I didn't know better. Yet intuitively, I did sometimes. That must have been the Holy Spirit working. I also read the bible and accurately understood some of the teachings. The wrong gospel message just got into me and led to confusion over the years. And though I was brainwashed, I still prayed my prayers in sincerity and they never went unheard. Only God could have gotten me out of the hard wooden box shut closed with nails. There was no way I could be set free from Adventism on my own. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2491 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Raven and Mary for answering. I wrote pretty much the same thing, but it did not sound right to me so I did not post it. Diana |
