| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006  |
Good day to everybody Since this is my first post here I would like to show the courtesy to introduce myself. My name is Martin Willemoes Hansen, I'm from Denmark but currently I live in southeast of Spain in Alicante. Here I've stumbled upon an SDA church, (I'm not an SDA myself), and I went to some sermons there and quickly found out that there was something wrong, seemed like the people just wasn't happy, I did some research on SDA and studied the teachings found on www.sdaoutreach.org and found that SDA is teaching another gospel  I have some contacts from this church and I've got a friend there as well. I have a desire to share the Gospel with my friend and to be a real friend as well, so now we are talking about Christianity versus Adventism. Well that was a long story made short. I would like to share with you a topic we talked about today. Its about sin, forgivness and prayer. Well it goes something like this, acording to her we have to ask for forgivness for each sin we committed that we know we've commited as well as for thoes that we don't know we have commited. For me this is very well as long as it doesnt constitute a work or annuls the work of Jesus Christ. As I understand scripture I belive that I have received forgivness for all my sins, my present, future and past sins, when I converted. Jesus talks about praying and sin fx in luke 11:1-4 and for me, when I've commited a sin, it feels very natural to pray for forgivness, the holy spirit in me is simply crying out. My friend tells me that God can't forgive me for my sins if he doesn't know them, thats logical and seems right to me. As I written above I belive that God know all of my sin, what I have done in my past and what I will do in the future and have forgiven all of them. My adventist friend then argues, but why should we pray for forgivness then, when God already know our sins? One thing I've learned from my Adventist friend is that she likes logic very much and argues from that rather than the word of God. What do you think of this topic and do you have some advice for me. An interesting twist is the IJ, if an adventist can pray for the sins he doesnt know about and receive forgivness for them, it seems easy to pass the IJ. Is it so that EGW teaches that one has to ask for forgivness specifically for each sin or is it like above that one can ask for forgivness in general? I know its a spiritual battle and I can't do anything but try to be a friend and share the Gospel and pray. May the peace of the spirit be with you all Martin Willemoes Hansen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1023 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome Martin. You do us a great honor by bringing these questions to us. I can't exactly speak for your friend, but with regard to confessed sins, EGW taught that we had to remember and confess every individual sin. If we failed to confess even one of those sins it could come back to haunt us in the time of trouble, and might even be enough to keep an individual out of heaven. Yes, that is majorly "Works Salvation," and is definitely Another Gospel. It sounds like you understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You must pray for your friend. I also want to warn you that she thinks she knows loads more about the will of God than you ever could. Patience is of utmost importance. Encourage her to read Galatians, The Gospel of John, The love books of I II and III John, Ephesians, Romans. Whatever you do get her to read the scriptures clean (no doubling back to see what Sister White said about this or that Bible reference). Keep introducing her to the Gospel. Teach her that Surrender to the Will of Christ and the Holy Spirit will be life-changing. We will pray for her from here. She is treasured by Christ, and you just might be His hand to reach out to her. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 442 Registered: 7-2004  |
Welcome, Mwh! You bring up several interesting points regarding confessing our sins. Does your friend really believe God doesn't know our sin (or know we're sorry for our sin) until we confess it? God is all-knowing, and I'm pretty sure all SDA's believe that. In fact, I recall as a very young child (growing up in an SDA family) I would ask forgiveness for all the sins I couldn't remember, to have all the bases covered. However, while I was an SDA and before I learned about grace, it was hopeless. That's because I knew based on the IJ doctrine that it was up to me to get to the point where I didn't sin anymore and that is simply impossible. And yet the IJ doctrine teaches both that you have to confess each and every sin AND you have to eventually stop sinning. That's why it's not easy to pass the IJ (and I'm glad there's no such thing!) because a person can hardly go 5 minutes without sinning in some way. The original IJ doctrine teaches that you never know when your name will come up, and if it comes up and you have even one unconfessed sin, you're out. I think nowadays, most SDA's would say your name doesn't come up until you die, unless the Second Coming is so close to happening that it needs to come up sooner. Advice? Just teach your friend grace from the Bible, especially Romans. Focus on the verses that give us assurance of our salvation. I know there's one in either John or 1 John that says something like "so that you may know that you are saved." That cancels out the IJ right there, because either it's impossible to be saved until way in the future when your "probation" has closed, or you're saved and unsaved many times a day as you confess and then sin yet again--and it leaves you to constantly wonder if you're in our out. I know about the SDA method of defending their beliefs more by logic than by the Word of God. Just insist on sticking with the Bible. And pray a lot! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2494 Registered: 3-2004  |
Mwh, Welcome to the FAF. You are in the right place at the right time. The verse I thing of is John 5: 24 (NIV) I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eteranl life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. God is leading you and He led you here. I will pray for you and your adventist friend that God will open the ears, eyes and take the veil off the mind so this person can see and hear what the Bible really says. Pray lots, be grounded in what you believe, in other words study your Bible. God is with you and personally, I believe He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3847 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mwh, we're so glad you've joined us here. I can't add to what Raven and Belva and Diana have said. They're so right about the need to pray and the fact that Adventism teaches you have to confess every single sin. Because Ellen white is the bottom line in this religion, Adventists interpret the Bible according to her commentary. They SAY that the Bible is their standard, but in reality it is the Bible according to Ellen White that they mean. Please feel free to ask whatever questions come up. We will pray for you and for your friend. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 397 Registered: 10-2001 |
I've had a lot of people ask me this, even non SDA's. Not so much as a salvific issue but people want to know if they need to list their sins everyday. Personally, I doubt the theif on the cross was up there listing sins, and I know Jesus, in his model prayer just said, "Forgive us our tresspasses". That's the best example for me! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thanks for your replies  Okay the IJ is still a bit unclear for me, it seems like one can almost get around the IJ by praying for forgivness morning and evening, it limits the acumulation of ones sin which hasnt received a pardon. Also I'm understanding it like one can ask for forgivness for the sins one does not know about. Which further limits the scope of sins without pardon. The thing about remembering the sins to be able to confess them is interesting. Should one quickly write them down or pray for forgivness right away ... this realy feels like work to me, I can work me into heaven or that I have part in my own salvation. And that the sins can come back to haunt us seems to me a bit logical, but when I see it in the light of the word, I belive God has forgotten them, I'm having peace and I can forget the sins myself. On the contrary if God hasn't forgotten them I will be haunted clearly, I can't help thinking about what I would do when I'm going to stand in front of him. I would like to know more about the: "geting to the point where one does not sin anymore", for me the whole point of the law is to point out that this can't happen and that the new testament teach that only Jesus keept it perfectly. I would also like a little bit elaborating on the: one cant go 5 minutes without sinning, I belive its true, but some good examples would be nice. Adventism is realy a hard nut to crack, its so a like to Christianity and so far from it at the same time. Also I'm not sure in the way I'm aproaching my friend, on one side I don't like to be to soft and the other I don't want to scare her off either. So far I have read the "An Open Letter to our Friends and Family" http://www.sdaoutreach.org/Home/Testimonies/Taylor/tabid/66/Default.aspx with her. This has awakened something in her, I can feel that, but her comments on this is "that it is sad to see people leave the SDA especially pastors". I have also listened together with her a message on the law, "The Law Accomplished" http://www.sdaoutreach.org/audio/TheLawAccomplished.mp3, her comment on this was that she didn't like the voice and attitude of the pastor, that he sounded like a know it all, was pride and that a man like that cant speak the word of God. Furthermore I have spoken with her about my own belifs trying to be as honest I can and answering "I dont know" when I get asked something I had not thought about before or found relevant, this is realy good for me I'm learning a lot and getting more profound in my faith in Jesus. I have received a book on EGW as a gift from one of my contacts in the SDA church, The Great Controvercy though in Spanish, Conflicto CŪsmico its named. So I can look up any reference you might like to share with me in that book. Thanks for all of your help so far, i'll post questions when I have them, thats for sure. Jesus has conquered death! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3854 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mwh, the IJ, in a nutshell, is an elaborate contrivance that says Jesus did not finish the atonement at the cross. He shed His blood, but that blood still has to be "applied" to our sins. In 1844 Jesus went into the "most Holy Place" in heaven and began the final investigation of people who professed Christ. If they were "faithful" and working toward perfection, he would apply his blood to them. If not, they were lost. All this would go on secretly; no one knew when his name would come up for reveiw. For a concise and clear explanation of the IJ, you can read about it in this Proclamation magazine online here: http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2005_MarApr.pdf Your friend will have great resistance to hearing truth because she has been taught that what she believes the Bible says IS truth. It's all based on Ellen White, even if she doesn't think it is! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2496 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mwh, as you can see from what Colleen said, the IJ is unbiblical. It cannot be proved from the Bible I really believe as you put it: "Adventism is really a hard nut to crack, its so a like to Christianity and so far from it at the same time." That is why so many people think they are evangelical and people are deceived and pulled into it. I will be praying for you and your friend. I hope this friend is not some one you really like, as you say it is a "she". If it is none of my business, just say so. Listen to everything Colleen has said. Be well grounded in what you believe, and pray and pray lots. And study your Bible. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 |
Ill read up on that link Colleen and I sense the reality of your last statement. Thanks Diana for your prayers, if it the lords will it will be done. I don't mind you asking, I'm loving her as a sister in the Lord which has been deceived by false teachings. I'm not in love with her and she is very aware of that as well. The word is like my daily meals I can't live without them. At least not for long. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 197 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mwh, Welcome!! Just a suggestion.... spend less time trying to figure out how SDA doctrines make sense and more time sharing truth from the word with your friend as the truth about SDA doctrine is that IT HAS NEVER MADE COMPLETE SENCE, which is so confusing when SDA's tend to use what you described as "logic" rather than the word of God. What I'm saying is that you can read until you're blue in the face and it will be so right on and so far from what the Bible teaches all at the same time. Of course, keep asking any questions you wish to have answered, but just a heads up that you may find their doctrinal base to be problematic at best when trying to make sense of them. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I took 4 years of Adventist Theology and graduated with pastoral training and it's still senseless because it does not line up with the truth from God's word. God Bless You as you share your faith with this Adventist Girl. Sincerely, Lisa | ||
| Artman29 Registered user Username: Artman29 Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2006 |
Welcome Mwh!!!! Andy | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2006  |
Mwh, welcome. You'll get honest, informed answers here. I'm not a former myself and don't know any Adventists personally so this is my main source of information and truth regarding SDA. My daughter is dating an Adventist so this forum acts as my support group. CW |
