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Snowboardingmom
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Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What do you guys think about the term "cheap grace"? Is there such a thing?
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3838
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Frankly, no. True grace is never cheap. Some people do preach a false grace that is cheap, but it is not grace. There are a couple of kinds of "false cheap grace". One kind says that God will save everyone because Jesus died for the world's sins. No one has to accept Him, because He gave the world a free gift.

The modified version of cheap grace is that God will save whoever prays to accept Jesus as Savior. On the surface this sounds fine, but the Bible is clear that repentance is involved. Without an acknowledgement of our deep, intractable sinfulness and repentance, there's no true acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice. Believing we can be saved without facing our sin is a self-serving deception.

Accepting Jesus' sacrifice as a free gift to pay for my sin and to provide me with His righteousness, however, is not cheap grace. To think that our good works have any part to play in receiving salvation OR in staying saved is unbiblical. God's grace is not cheap. Jesus paid more for our salvation than any of us could pay for ourselves.

In reality, people like to be in charge. The idea of being in debt to Jesus, who died for them, is uncomfortable. They don't like to feel indebted, and they don't want to pay the price: surrender of themselves to One who carried their sin. Because people like to be in charge and refuse to stand in debt to God, they excuse their resistance and cling to their good works by calling God's grace "cheap".

It actually cost God enormouslyóand it asks from us our very selves. "Cheap" grace would be God saving us IF we helped out by working. If we "paid back" by contributing our good works, the value of grace would be negated.

Colleen
Thomas1
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 7:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if grace were cheap, I couldn't afford it. That's why I thank God for the cross. Through Jesus, grace isn't cheap. It's FREE! If it has any cost, it isn't grace.

In His grace
<><
Thomas
Esther
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas, Thanks for that distinction! The "cheap grace" statement has irritated me for so long because now I get that alot from my family/friends. I've learned too, to say that it isn't cheap, it cost God everything. Now I can remind them also that it's free :-)

This was kind of long so I wasn't going to post it, but it's so good as well and since the topic came up:

Don't Leave it on the Desk

There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States.
Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this particular institution. Every student was required to take this course, his or her freshman year, regardless of his or her major.
Although Dr Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts, most students refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class. One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him.

"How many push-ups can you do?" Steve said, "I do about 200 every night." "200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think you could do 300?" Steve replied, "I don't know... I've never done 300 at a time." "Do you think you could?" again asked Dr.
Christianson. "Well, I can try," said Steve. "Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," said the professor. Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it" Dr. Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain what I have in mind."

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts.
No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, "Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?" Cynthia said, "Yes." Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?" "Sure." Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe, do you want a donut?" Joe said, "Yes." Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have a donut? Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for every person before they got their donut.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott. Scott was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve. He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship. When the professor asked, "Scott do you want a donut?" Scott's reply was, "Well, can I do my own pushups?" Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them."
Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"
With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups

Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!" Dr. Christianson said, "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it." And he put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry. Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, "Jenny, do you want a donut?" Sternly, Jenny said, "No." Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?" Steve did ten...Jenny got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were beginning to say "No" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these pushups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten pushups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for all of those uneaten donuts. He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room. When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next.
Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a lot more time to complete each set. Steve asked Dr Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?" Dr.
Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr.
Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came up to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, "NO! Don't come in! Stay out!" Jason didn't know what was going on.
Steve picked up his head and said, "No, let him come." Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten pushups for him?" Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut." Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?" Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. "Yes," he said, "give me a donut."

"Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?" Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down. Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. By this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a doughnut?" Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you." Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?" Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda.

Then Dr Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you want a donut?" Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr.
Christianson, why can't I help him?" Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it alone, I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not. When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked my grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade. Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work. Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for your sakes."

"Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?" As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life. And like some of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile. "Well done, good and faithful servant," said the professor, adding "Not all sermons are preached in words."

Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that you might understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God spared not His only Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid."

"Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3841
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, now I'm crying. Thank you, Esther!

Colleen
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 477
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<smile> Colleen, I had the same reaction you did as I read it. I'm over in the corner of my room with students coming in from recess. I think they sometimes "wonder" about their teacher.

I've sent it back out to many of my email friends. Actually some of you on my email list may get it a second time. <grin>

Thanks Esther,

richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Brian3
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW!

This one is certainly being saved in my Bible stuff folder!
Chris
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Post Number: 1211
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without commentary from me, pro or con, I wonder if anyone would have thoughts on an altered version of this parable.


quote:

There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States. Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this particular institution. Every student was required to take this course, his or her freshman year, regardless of his or her major. Although Dr Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts, most students refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class. One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him.

"How many push-ups can you do?" Steve said, "I do about 200 every night." "200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think you could do 300?" Steve replied, "I don't know... I've never done 300 at a time." "Do you think you could?" again asked Dr. Christianson. "Well, I can try," said Steve. "Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," said the professor. Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it" Dr. Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain what I have in mind."

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts. No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and stood in front of her desk. Cynthia didnít notice him because she was asleep at her desk. Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that I can feed Cynthia a donut?" "Sure." Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson reached out, grasped Cynthiaís chin and lifted her head until she was looking right at him. Gently and lovingly, yet very firmly Dr. Christianson used his fingers to put pressure on her cheeks until her mouth opened. Once Cynthiaís mouth was open Dr. Christianson placed a donut directly in her mouth.

The next person in the row was Joe. Dr. Christianson did not stop at Joeís desk but kept walking. Dr. Christianson walked by one more desk before stopping at Mikeís desk. Mike was so busy talking to a friend next to him that he didnít even notice that Dr. Christianson was there. Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so I can feed Mike a donut? Steve did ten push-ups. Mr. Christianson grasped Mikeís jaw even as he was in mid-sentence, lovingly opened Mikeís mouth, and inserted a donut. Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for each person that Dr. Christianson chose to feed a donut to, but no push ups for those who Dr. Christianson passed by.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson walked past the first three people before coming to Scott. Scott was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve. He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship. When the professor stopped at Scottís desk Scott immediately blurted out, "Well, can I do my own pushups?" Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them." Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so I can feed Scott a donut he doesn't want?" With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups

Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!" Dr. Christianson said, "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts.î He then firmly grasped Scott by the jaw, opened his mouth, and put a donut in.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row again walking by some desks and stopping at others. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry. Dr. Christianson stopped at Jennyís desk. Jenny stared definitely at Dr. Christian and emphatically spat out one word, "No." Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so I can feed Jenny a donut that she doesn't want?" Steve did ten...Jennyís mouth was opened by Dr. Christianson and she got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students who had been chosen to receive donuts were very happy indeed, but some of the remaining students were either beginning to say "No" or were just plain indifferent.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these pushups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten pushups in a set for each donut given out. He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely, but he did not feed Robert a donut and Steve did no pushups for Robert.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row again feeding donuts to some, but not to others. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room. When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Dr. Christianson passed the next person, but fed donuts to the next and the next.
Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a lot more time to complete each set. Steve asked Dr Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?" Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr. Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came up to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, "NO! Don't come in! Stay out!" Jason didn't know what was going on. Steve picked up his head and said, "No, let him come." Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten pushups for him?" Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Feed him a donut." Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right nowî.

"Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that I can feed Jason a donut?" Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, felt Dr. Christiansonís hand on his jaw and was fed a donut. Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors seated by the heaters. The professor gave donuts to some of these, but not to others. Steve did push ups for each new person chosen for donut, but not for those who were passed over. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. By this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last. Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you." Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that I can feed Linda a donut she doesn't want?" Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda.

Then Dr Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan and grasped her gently by the jaw. Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr. Christianson, why can't I help him?" Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it alone, I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone whom I have chosen for a donut has pushups done for them whether they want it or not. When I decided to have a party for some of you on this last day of class, I looked at my grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade. Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work. Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price for some of you by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for some of your sakes."

"Steve, would you do ten push-ups so I can feed Susan a donut?" As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life. And like some of those in this room, some will be given the gift."

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile. "Well done, good and faithful servant," said the professor, adding "Not all sermons are preached in words."

Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that some of you might understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have been given to some of you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God spared not His only Begotten Son, but gave Him up for some of us, now and forever. We do not choose to accept His gift to us, but the price has been paid for some us, and to those the gift will be given."




Chris




(Message edited by Chris on April 27, 2006)
Snowboardingmom
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Post Number: 67
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good, Esther. Thank you!

And thanks for everyone's thoughts and insights. "Cheap grace" was a phrase I heard a lot growing up (I think it's common among legalistic environments). It used to make a lot of sense to me.

A few days ago, I had heard the term again, but this time used as a warning for me not to buy into THAT cheap grace theology. I've been thinking about this term (because it had been awhile since I heard it), and realized suddenly that it just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Grace is grace, there is nothing cheap about it (like you've all stated). In fact, the idea of "cheap grace" can be applied to legalism too. The idea that we can "buy into" any part of salvation and try to earn it, makes grace cheap!

It's interesting how your understanding of things changes, sometimes without even realizing it. It's one thing to think differently about main doctrinal things, but then to realize that terms or catch phrases that used to sound normal, suddenly seem to not make any sense anymore. "Cheap grace" was one of those things.

Sometimes, my understanding of things is changing so fast, that I don't feel as if I've had time to process it or even trust it. So I was glad to read all of your thoughts -- it was great affirmation that I'm still heading in the right direction with my thinking :-). I have to admit, doubts still slip in every once in awhile...
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Esther for your story.
When I left the SDA church for good 2 years ago January I had forgotten all the intricacies of it's teachings. Then I started reading the Bible and all kinds of things popped out at me. How much the Father loves us was the big one. Now I am learning, for the first time, what God wants me to learn. Every so often, something odd slips in and God tells me that is an ellenism.
Grace is not cheap, but thank God, I do not and cannot pay for it. Jesus did that for me.
He is so awesome.
Diana
Freeatlast
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somehow, the idea of being beaten to a pulp by a bunch of drunken Roman soldiers, having a crown of thorns forcefully pushed down over your head, getting your beard ripped from your face in chunks, being deprived of food, water, and sleep for over 48 hours, then having your church, your friends, and your God all turn tail and run away from you in your hour of need only find your feet and hands spiked to a wooden post where you hang in agony, stark naked, for over six hours until you suffocate to death in your own bodily fluids doesn't really strike me as "cheap".
Snowboardingmom
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I just read your interesting altered version. It definitely made me think.

I kind of see it as Steve had to do 350 push-ups to get the box of donuts from the donut shop. And because of what Steve did, Dr. Christianson is able to hand them out to the students that have an appetite for the donuts.

Grace
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, my altered version is not meant to cast any dispersions at all on Esther's fine post. I greatly enjoyed your posting Esther. As I was reading it though, it occured to me how theological perspectives cause us to have different views on the nature of grace and the extent to which it is given.

I couldn't resist the opportunity to spark a discussion on the application of grace given the title of this thread. I thought a fun way of doing this would be to have two different versions of the same story.

Esther, please don't take my alternate version for anything other than a conversation starter.

Chris
Esther
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris...I'm quite happy you posted another version. In fact, it's not even my story, just something I thought to share.

I appreciate your different version...and will have to contemplate it a bit. May I clarify? Is this how you view grace? As something that Christ paid for, for those only who are chosen. I know this topic has been touched on before, but I'm really not sure where I fall in this scheme. I would really appreciate hearing a bit more on this topic. I guesss I'm safely over the "i don't have to do anything" place, but am still out on a limb over the other points of Reformed theology.

Anyway, I will enjoy the conversation!
Justdodie
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello All,
I wanted to come out of "lurkdom" to comment on this thread because I found it so very thought-provoking, and also more than a little bit uncomfortable and troubling. But I do think it has helped me to bring into focus some of the unsettling and frightening feelings that the Christian doctrines have always brought out in me.

Of course, it's obvious that the story is to be seen as an analogy of the Christian understanding of the death and atoning action of Jesus. That seemed fairly clear to me. But, I wonder, if we were able to read it as "just a story", would it make us feel any differently? Just as did the students in the story, I found myself becoming more and more upset and uncomfortable, the farther into the story I got. And yet, I couldn't resist reading to the conclusion. No one has really commented on this aspect, but how did it make you feel toward the professor? I found myself to be quite repelled by him and his actions, despite the fact that Steve seemed willing to go along with the plan, and I felt the urge to run, hide, jump out a window---do almost anything, just to remove myself from the presence of this man, Dr. Christianson. I'm sure that's not the reaction that I was supposed to have toward him, but I have always had really strong reactions to individuals like this, and I could never quite put my finger on what exactly troubled me about it. But I think I see now that I'm not perceiving the two main characters in this story (call them Dr. Christianson and Steve, or call them God and Jesus) in the way that the author of the story intended. For me, there is a very subtle undertone of sadomasochism that I find very confusing and very frightening. I think that because this is such a private aspect of my personality and experience, and one that I couldn't possibly understand as a child, it has always haunted me in a way that other people just never understood or perhaps didn't even pick up on.

It also troubled me that the students seemed to be "trapped" in Dr. Christianson's classroom, helpless to do anything other than stay and participate, without any apparent regard for their feelings by the professor.

Also, Chris, I'm curious--are you planning to add any commentary to your "altered" version of the story? It definitely made me think... and I admit, I found it to be more troublesome than the original story, mainly because there was force involved (in feeding the donuts) and the students had no option to say 'no', or to know whether they would be chosen.

I have always found the story of Jesus, and his being so unjustly judged and executed, to be a profoundly moving story, but I just don't see the story of "The Professor, Steve and the Donuts" proceeding out of it. I have to think it's more than just cultural differences, or the 2000 year time span. Does anyone have any further ideas?? I know I've discussed this on occasion with people from a variety of Christian denominations, and they didn't ever seem to get where I'm coming from. Anyway, that's my gut response, for what it's worth.

Good to be back...
Joyce
Cw
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Esther, you weren't going to post it because it was too long and I started to bypass it for now for the same reason. It was only after reading the other's comments that I went back to it. There were tears in my eyes as well long before I got to the end because I knew where it was going. Yeah, grace ain't cheap. CW
Jwd
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Was Christ's sacrifice an attempt to save everybody? Or was it a success in saving "his people from their sins" (Mt 1:21)? The Bible says "He has...accomplished redeption for His people (Lk 1:68). Nowhere is it said in even the vaguest terms, "He has made all men savable."

Ep 1:4 "For he (the Father) chose us in him (the Son) before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." The Father's plan is selective; not everyone is chosen. "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved (2 Th 2:13) Peter wrote to believers who were "chosen..for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood (1 Pe 1:2) "For he chose us in him"; it is "in him (that) we have redemption through his blood (Eph 1:4,7).

M. Horton makes these points: If the Father places some - - indeed, many - - in Christ to "be holy and blameless in his sight" (Eph 1:4), then we must agree that the rest are not chosen and not placed in Christ to be holy and blameless in his sight. Scripture identifies them as "the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction" (Ro 9:22).

If we are trusting in Christ totally, we do not have to wonder whether we will escape judgment. It is certain that we already have! We might add Jn 3:18 "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already!"
Raven
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No offense, Chris, but your story bothered me while Esther's didn't. And yet I thought I was becoming less Arminian! For me too, it was the force issue that didn't set right. Probably it's the inability of parables to be completely analogous. For example, even if TULIP Calvinism is totally correct, I would say it's more likely the person isn't aware of the "donut" being forced on them. Once they do have awareness, it doesn't feel like force, but instead feels like what they want and they're happy and grateful for it by then.
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Esther, I did not provide commentary with my alternate version because I was very deliberately trying not to bias the reader as they absorb the story. I was attempting to fairly and accurately (within the limitation of an analogy) present an alternate view that illustrates just what the discussion on the nature of grace and its extent is all about and why it has been going on in the Church for so long. My story was not necessarily meant to endorse a particular view point. I am more interested in how others will interpret the parable.

Chris
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joyce, Welcome back!

In reference to your feelings about the professor, I would offer the following for your consideration. Parables are not necessarily intended to be true in every detail, just true in the main point they are making. Here's where I think this particular parable really breaks down. The Professor and Steve are two seperate beings. This parable would be more accurate if we only had one being doing everything. That is the parable would be more accurate if it were the Professor himself who was giving the donuts and doing the push ups.

You see, that's the terrible beauty of the cross. God didn't place the consequences of our sin on us. He didn't even place the consequences of our sin on some third party. He took the punishment for our sin upon Himself. God Himself came as a man, lived the perfect life in our place, and died in our place. He did it all, no one else. He now gives us His righteoussness to cover us in place of our own shortcomings. He gave us His own death in place of ours. He gives us eternal life life instead of eternal seperation.

We could not do this for ourselves. No third party could do it for us either. Only God can satisfy his own requirements of righteousness, justice, mercy, and grace......and that's just what he did.

Imagine a criminal who has been sentenced to death for a crime he has truly committed. In order to be just, the judge must pronounce the consequences demanded by the Law. Now imagine that very same judge, not someone else, coming down off the bench, taking of his robe, and willingly going to the electric chair in place of the criminal so that the criminal could not only live, but be set free forever. That's exactly what God Himself did for us.

So our parable definately has some short comings and you pointed out a significant one. Good to see you back Joyce. Thank you for your insightful observation.

Chris

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