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Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3557
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Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insightful "ramblings", Violet.

Colleen
Violet
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Post Number: 360
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wondering around of the LAM website I read the resigantion letter of the Beems at http://www.ratzlaf.com/resignation_letter.htm
If I knew about the stance of Adventism on abortion it had never hit home like it did this time. So I went online to Adventist.org and read their stance of abortion, euthanasia, and smoking. It may sould like a funny combination but get this--- abortion is OK if a properly diagnosed damaged child is to be aborted, you are to never preform a mercy killing, and SDA's are suppose to try and get taxes raised on cigarettes and try and ban all advertising. My head was spinning--They put more effort into banning smoking than protecting unborn children, but once they are born you had better keep 'em! Just because the child may have defects its OK to kill it. I cannot put my hand of the story in the New Testament I'm sure someone will know it and can tell me the text--Was not Jesus asked about a crippled man "who sinned, him or his parents?" and He responded by saying neither- this man was born this way so God's glory could be revealed. I guess the SDA church again knows better than God. After all they are the highest authority on earth.

Ranting and raving again!

V
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's OK, Violet--I completely understand! Things get a little crazy-making the closer you look, don't they?

Colleen
Violet
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Post Number: 361
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I am still ashamed I was deceived for so long. I must of looked like a fool to the normal christian.
Melissa
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, the "normal" Christian probably doesn't know anything about adventism, so you probably don't look too strange to them. :-)
Violet
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Post Number: 363
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Melissa
Cw
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Post Number: 17
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Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, you may say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek-or maybe not-but you are right. I consider myself a normal Christian. I am not a "former" as you folks refer to yourselves. And until my daughter started seriously dating a SDA I was typically ignorant of their beliefs. So they go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday-who cares? And having come out of a somewhat legalistic doctrine-but, I discover, not even close to SDA-I felt them too rigid for me. But not until I started wondering at some of the things my daughter was starting to demonstrate from her love for J did I begin to investigate and educate myself. The good thing and the bad thing is that now I am very scared for D. I have mentioned that in other postings so I won't bore you all with it again. But my wife and I belong to two bible study groups that meet in our church member's homes. I don't share my concerns on this topic with them even though I love them all dearly and they are great Christian people. They are simply as ignorant of SDA as I was a couple of months ago. I will share these concerns with you folks because you have been there and you are not amazed at my fears. I'm not offended by your remark Melissa and I know you didn't mean it as offensive anyway. It's the truth. The main stream Christian church is ignorant of SDA. And that's obviously the way SDA wants to keep it. A year ago I invited J over to play Bible trivia but it never happened. He would have cleaned my clock about the differences in our doctrine. We are not "buddies" and now that D and J know that I have educated myself in this regard I don't think he dares face me. I'm praying that he finds a lovely SDA girl and falls in love at the SDA college he now attends. D will get over it and God has a great Christian guy out there for her that even I will love.
Melissa
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Post Number: 1364
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Cw, I'm not a former either. Just like your daughter, I was dating someone who was adventist...but I didn't buy the beliefs. I understand your hesitancy to talk to non-SDAs about it because I've really struggled to get anyone really interested in hearing about the true depth of the deception in the religion. As you say, they think it's about a day of the week, and who cares what you eat.

A couple of years ago, our associate pastor was doing a sermon on how people's lives have become so busy we've no room for God and Bible study. A fine point, but he started saying we "need a sabbath", using the text from the 4th commandment...not in a legalistic way in reference to a day, just the fact we need to take time for God and our relationship with him. In and of itself probably no big deal, but I was in the back room with our senior pastor and several others (who've sat through other services) and I said "he's setting them up to be ripe pickins for the SDAs". My pastor said, "well, you know, adventists are right about a lot of things." Not the thing to have said to me. I unloaded for about 15 minutes on how they pervert the gospel and concluded by saying they are right about very little as far as I can tell. He said he had never heard any of that from the SDAs he knew. I've talked about it in our small group when we've encountered texts that I know SDAs use to just make people aware of how people pervert scripture and they laugh...literally. They just can't imagine anything like it. And they really don't comprehend just how serious it is because they only see one tree and don't see the whole forest. It's not their belief structure, so they just don't care. In that same Bible study group, someone said he had heard they think we have the mark of the beast, so I explained the teaching and how they get to it, another associate pastor is in that group and was shocked, and said "You've got to be kidding...". I said no, and explained a little further and he just shook his head. He had no idea.

Before I got really seriously involved dating B (though certainly after our first few dates...since he never actually told me he was SDA, I read the church sign in the parking lot the first time I went to a church function with him), I asked every Christian friend I had if they had ever heard of adventism, not a single one knew anything about it.

I certainly meant no disrespect to the non-formers on the board, as I am one of the few of us on here. It really was just a light hearted comment to make Violet smile. Non-SDA Christians don't spend near as much time talking about SDAs as it would seem SDAs spend worrying about us.

I have that same hope for your daughter. Is the college away or local? Hopefully she won't want to attend there as well.....
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 3831
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I so completely understand your frustration and share it. I was talking with a pastor in Canada about three weeks ago or so. He is a former SDA with a South American background, and he is now pastoring a Christian & Missionary Alliance church. He has a doctorate in church history and frequently travels to speak on various theological issues. He and his wife also have a counter-cult ministry through which they teach Christians about LDS, JW, and SDA.

This man told me that when he travels to speak about normal theolgoical issues, "things" are "normal". When he travels to lecture about the cults, however, all Hades breaks loose. He said his family and he will experience financial and physical crises and dangers, etc.

He told me that his dream is to successfully educate evangelical Christians about the true nature of Adventism. He was passionate in saying that Christians have no idea what Adventism is or how dangerous it is. He said that a couple or so years ago he went to the Missionary Allliance Seminary in Argentina to do a three-day lecture series on the cults. Before he went the people arranging for him to come asked him NOT to speak about Adventism while he was there.

This man replied that he couldn't speak about the cults without speaking about Adventism, and he couldn't do his lectures unless he were allowed to teach about SDAs. They relented. He said that it took two days of explaining and teaching before those seminarians "saw" what he was trying to say. Once they understood the true nature of the problems with the church, they understood his designation of it as a cult. He said that when you walk into exposing the truth about Adventism, you walk onto "enchanted ground" (his words) because (again, his wordsóplease don't stone me!) it is a satanic cult.

So, one man's opinion...I just know that the deception of Adventism is deep and permeates it entirely. It is often discouraging and daunting to speak what some of us have come to know is reality about this church, as Melissa alluded above. Yet as Dale Ratzlaff often says, "Truth can stand the test of investigation."

I pray for you and your daughter, Cw...

Colleen
Violet
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, When we first started going to the Christian Church we attended a class on "Cults vs Christians". You can imagine how that peaked our interest. It was basically a study of Mormans, JW and Musliums (sp?) When I offered to the teacher if he would like some information on the SDA's he informed me he did not think they were a cult and did not fit into this class. This gentleman is a great guy and I love him much. He had some SDA's babysit at his church and that was all he knew about them. Thought they were great Chrisitain people. What he did not know was I grew up with the baby sitters kids and sat on nominating committes with them. The wife did not want to allow one of the men in the church to be a deacon because he went to football games on Sabbath. He was a physical therapist and provided medical care for the injured college team members in our town.
Just goes to show the pretty face others can see, but not the dragon beneath.

PS You did make me smile:-)
Cw
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Post Number: 19
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Violet, that's it! You bring up "cults" in a Bible study and you will be involved in a discussion of the Mormans, JW's, New Age and several others. SDA will NOT be mentioned. It would be mentioned now if I am in that group but over all it's the best kept secret in Christendom. What frustrates me about it is their attitude of "I'll just "spin" this one past you because you don't don't know what we really believe anyway". At least that's what I feel J and his parents are doing to my daughter. Then she gets my arguments and takes them to that family to learn the proper spin answer. But when I began to investigate SDA I hit on a lot of pro-SDA sites trying to find the truth-of course it's not on those sites. However, I hit on one called cyberspaceministries.com that I'm glad I found. It contains a 41 lesson study of SDA doctrine which is an honest teaching of their false doctrine. I learned a lot there and I even proudly own a certificate of completion from them. But in learning all that, I am now scared for D. But I do know how to pray now and I appreciate the continued prayers of you "formers", and yours also Melissa. CW
Violet
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Post Number: 365
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if these same Christians knew about their stand on abortion they would feel the same way. Sacrificing the unborn to make their life easier. After all they allow you to have an abortion if you were raped or have a deformed fetus in the womb. I guess they do not think God is strong enough to bring you through these situations.
Cw
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Post Number: 21
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This apparent soft stand on abortion is just my latest surprise in regard to SDA doctrine. I asked this question in an earlier post and it's a serious question: What is it about EGW that makes her unique enough to be believed over all the other "modern day prophets"? I keep my used Clear Word on my desk beside my NIV. I half expect to walk into this room sometime and find the Clear Word in ashes "at the feet" of God's word. That would be a thrill worth the ten bucks I paid for it on e-bay. It's only our fault that there is spiritual warfare between God's Word and all these false doctrines. Unless we were so easily duped this would not even be a minor skirmish on the radar screen of warfare. God's Word could vaporize all that garbage if it weren't for enough of us (meaning people in general) to believe it. Oh well, that day is coming. CW
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cw,
Your question of what is it about EGW that makes her uniques enough to be believed over all the other "modern day prophets" is a valid question. Have you read Dirk Anderson's web site about Ellen White? For myself, my Dad was Adventist when he married my Mom. She became Adventist after she married my Dad, so I was raised SDA with all the baggage that contains. Go to all the other web sites that are linked here. You can also write to the various former Pastors Ratzlaff, Martin, Taylor and they can explain it better than me.
I continue to pray for you and your daughter.
God is so awesome.
Diana
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1365
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B has acknowledged that they do perform abortions, and he says that while he disagrees with it, that doesn't change anything else about his opinion of the religion.

His father is an SDA pastor, and he wouldn't baptize anyone who wore jewelry, including a wedding band. He claims to disagree with that, but because they are right on so many other things, he can overlook that.

When I have asked him about the selectivity of "prophets", he claims to believe there are other prophets, but none of them replace or diminish EGWs authority.

Every question I have ever asked him comes back in support of the religion. I even told him one time that his position on EGW alone meant there was no relationship between us, and he was content with that price. And had I not had our son, I believe I would only see him in passing at work ... as we do work at the same place ... UGH!

But he is the only person I've asked these questions of, how much he speaks for the "normal" SDA I don't know...he thinks he's very normal, however.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thnk, Melissa, that B is more "normal" than not.

Cw, Diana took your questions to another thread for answers as well.

As I think about your situation, Cw, with your daughter dating an Adventist, the irony occurs to me that Adventists strongly teach that one should marry inside the church. The issue is never whether or not the mate is a "good" Christianóand "born again" doesn't even come upóbut whether or not he or she is Adventist. Of course, parents prefer if their kids are marrying conscientious, good Adventists who take their religion at least somewhat seriously, but the most important qualification is to be Adventist.

If one is dating a non-Adventist, there will be great effort to get the non-SDA to convert. If he or she does not convert and they marry anyway, the couple will be marginalized. They may not be overtly excluded, but the family will always feel there is a "shadow" over them because their son or daughter has married "out of the church", and they will have a "divided home".

When children come there will be great stress, because the Adventist will believe he/she needs to raise the children Adventist. I can't even explain the deep intensity the Adventist will feel at making sure the children are raised Adventist. As much as the couple may think their differences are solvable because they're both Christians, when they actually share life, those differences will not be reconilable. They may not cause the couple to split, but they will not be able to compromise because Adventism requires certain things if one is to stay "loyal to God".

I had a friend in high school, and my sister was good friends with her sister. We really liked these girls and spent time on the phone, etc. Mind you, we all went to the same SDA schools. But we felt superior to these girls, because their father was not SDA. They were clearly not quite in the same social class we were because they were from a "divided home". This reaction was not unique to my sis and me; it is rampant.

Ellen White counseled that Adventist young people should not marry outside the home because they would have a home "where the shadows are never lifted." Ironically, she was right, but in a sort-of opposite reality from what she intended. Adventists also use 2 Corinthians 6:14 to support not marrying outside the church: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers..." Believers, of course, are Adventists.

Marrying an Adventist when one is notóand vice versa, of courseóyields a difficult life. The couple can never share church and religious traditions together, because the Adventist can not let go of his/her Adventism UNLESS he/she really discovers the gospel, meets Jesus, and leaves the church. Simply leaving will not do the trick; Adventism clings to a person even ouside the church unless one surrenders it and replaces it with Jesus.

I know this wasn't the subject of the thread, but there it is for what it's worth. I know deeply what it felt like to be an Adventist and to agonize over close loved ones who seemed not to be taking it seriously. I felt quite frantic. (Of course, not everyone would be as frantic as I, I admit...) but it is a source of deep heartache to be sharing life with someone who does not share your core religious values, and one tries to protect others from his or her influence.

Colleen
Cw
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Colleen. I can see the problems that it would cause. On one or two of the rare conversations D has allowed me on the subject she informed me, and I was not surprised, that J would never leave SDA. So my response was "so it's his way or no way, correct?" To that she answered "it would be my choice to follow him in his beliefs". So she has made it clear to me and obviously to J and his parents that she is a willing potential convert. But as I have said in previous posts-and forgive me for being repetitious but I believe this emphatically-she might convert in that she would attempt to follow the structure of SDA, but she will NEVER believe that doctrine. God has given me peace about that much.
That is a perfect summation Colleen and, also as I have mentioned before, I have invited D to monitor this forum. I pray and ask for your continued prayers as well that she, and even J and his parents, will be led to read all of this. This is spiritual warfare and even as right as they think they are, surely even they should see that these two families can never successfully merge. J honors God in his way by obedience to what he feels God is commanding him to do. D would only be going through the motions of keeping SDA rules and regulations for J, not because she believes it's God's will. It would no doubt cause strife in time in her marriage and I know it would drive a wedge between her new family and this one.
Thanks Colleen and the rest of you for taking this seriously. CW
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 12:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Cw, in your assesment. If your daughter "converted" to Adventism, she would eventually find it intolerable in many ways if she did not deeply embrace it. What she is learning from her boyfriend's family is PR talkóthey will never tell her the real truth. She will only discover the crazy-making realities after she joins and becomes part of the culture.

The issues will become more intense when the children come. If they are raised Adventist, your daughter will find them embracing a culture she probably will find uncomfortable and difficult to fit into. Not only are "divided homes" marginalized, but new converts are not fully embraced, either. They don't know all the "rules", and they aren't generally enfolded. They have to prove themselves. Odd as it sounds, being a multiple-generation Adventist is one of the best things for one's social standing.

The competition between moms at Adventist schools is powerful. The competition between women in the church is powerful. I don't know your daughter; I don't know how these things would affect her. I only know that even to a multiple-generation Adventist, these pressures are difficult to live up toóespecially if one is not reaonably well-to-do and/or does not come from a "professional" family, preferrably a medical profession.

It's a whole new culture. Joining Adventism is not just changing churches. It's adopting an entirely new life and world-view and set of subtle values. I know it's almost impossible to explain this to someone in love, but we have had others here over the years who have struggled with this same problem.

Melissa's warnings and experiences are valid.

Colleen
Cw
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Post Number: 26
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's what I'm coming to understand in all of this. They are heavy on PR and spin. And the less an outsider knows, the easier it is to sell that spin to him/her. I'm just praying that D will "test everything" as instructed in 1 Thes 5:19-22 and Matt 7:15-16. We have a real freedom in being able to hold up the Word of God and say "this is Absolute Truth". When it has to be re-written as in the Clear Word to make it conform to their beliefs instead of us conforming to it's teachings, that should be reason to run-not walk-away from it. It gives me renewed reason to be thankful that I have Christ as my Mediator and not some person who died 90 years ago. CW
Ric_b
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you mentioned that new converts aren't fully embraced. Personally I think that converts were always considered a little bit suspect and not-quite truly SDA. Just look at how many SDAs or formers start their description with how many generations they have been in SDAism--almost like a badge of honor. You are right Colleen, it is a measure of social standing.
Long before I expressed any doubt about SDA doctrines, I recall being treated as a 2nd class member.

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