| Author | Message | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 269 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi all: As I've said, we are studying Galatians...well we were. It has really turned into a study on "why I believe the way I do". And it's been a good thing...a really good thing. Anyway, a former minister (not former SDA, just no longer has a church) began attending a few weeks ago and I believe he is there with the intent of 'steering' us in the right direction.  Last night he shared with us that the Law or Commandments, in his view, are there for the immature Christian and until we can recognize the voice of the Spirit, we rely on the Law.??? We pointed out to him that the Bible actually says that the Law is a tutor or schoolmaster to point us to Christ, not to point us to itself. We explained that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what guides a Christian to behave in a godly manner. After that discussion (and a recent post on our Lincoln FAF), I am left with lingering questions. I am having trouble understanding, truly, what role the Law plays for unbelievers. I understand that its intent was always to point people toward Christ, but what role does it actually play today? I mean, if the Law still serves the purpose of pointing people to Christ, then how exactly does it do that? Does it just give a general overview of sin and the need for a Savior or is it to be used to point out specific sin to unbelievers? Neither of the above? Both of the above? HELP! Any insights would be greatly appreciated~ Patria P.S. This pastor finally admitted last night, to believing Universalism...that any human actually has to reject salvation to not receive it! YIKES. I am praying that the Lord will use us but admittedly I am overwhelmed. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1221 Registered: 7-2003  |
Patria, what I get from Romans chapter 2 is that those who were under the Mosaic Law would be judged by the Mosaic Law. Those who do not have the Mosaic Law will be judged by the Law that the Mosaic Law pointed to. That is, they will be judged by the ultimate Law which is defined by the very nature of God (of which the Mosaic Law was only a shadow). Either way, we can definitively say that no one has ever perfectly lived up to the Mosaic Law or the ultimate Law it pointed to, no one that is except Christ. Apart from Christ we are all under the wrath of God. Have you ever asked the question, ìWhat are we ësavedí from?î I fear a lot of Christians couldnít answer this, but the answer is ìWe are saved from the wrath of God.î Thatís the function of the Law. The Mosaic Law provides us with a shadow of the perfection God truly requires. Once we understand how overwhelming the Mosaic Law is we have an even better picture of how impossible the following standard is:
You asked how the Law points us to Christ. It points us to Christ by first condemning us! The Law points out how utterly depraved we are and makes it plain that we are under wrath. The Lawís first purpose is to condemn us. Although I do not believe we should try to divide the Old Covenant Law up for the purpose of trying to apply certain parts of it to New Covenant believers, I think we can still readily see that some aspects of the Old Covenant Law are moral while other aspects are ceremonial. The moral aspects condemn us, but the ceremonial aspects show us the way of escape. It is in the ceremonial aspects that we are most clearly able to see the work of Christ in saving us from the wrath of God. So the Lawís second purpose is to show us our need for a Substitute who will stand in our place. Unbelievers need to know that they are condemned by their idolatry, their sacrilege, their disregard for God, their disrespect, their murder, their adultery, their theft, their lying, and their covetousness. The Law highlights sin and lays out the basis for condemnation. It is only when realizes their utter hopelessness and their condemned state that they realize their need for Christ. I believe the Law still functions in this way. Itís not a very popular approach today to teach about wrath and condemnation, but I truly believe thatís the first purpose of the Law which then leads to its ultimate purpose, pointing to Christ. Chris | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 270 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, So what makes an unbeliever say OK I want to walk up to the Law to take a hard look at my depravity? Even as I'm thinking/typing through this, I am realizing for the first time, the utter sense that predestination makes. I can't see ANY reason that a person would willingly prostrate themselves before God and say "condemn me so you can save me" without the desire being placed there by God. I don't know why it's taking me so long to see this clearly... Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, So what makes an unbeliever say OK I want to walk up to the Law to take a hard look at my depravity? Even as I'm thinking/typing through this, I am realizing for the first time, the utter sense that predestination makes. I can't see ANY reason that a person would willingly prostrate themselves before God and say "condemn me so you can save me" without the desire being placed there by God. I don't know why it's taking me so long to see this clearly... Patria | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1222 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, I think you make a good point. I don't think that can happen apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin.
Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1597 Registered: 3-2005 |
Patria, That is why I like the emphasis that the Reformed faith puts on the Law. Not that I will ever accept Sunday Sabbatarianism--that is not the point. The Reformers believed that Law and Gospel should be taught together. That is why there is a reading of the Law at the beginning of many Lutheran or Reformed services, so then the gospel has meaning, as Chris said--what are we being saved from--the wrath of God. BTW, I know that you, Chris, and some others of us are fans of the White Horse Inn www.whitehorseinn.org and last Sunday night Shane Rosenthal had a roving mike at a pastors convention, and the question was, what are we being saved from? It was really appalling some of the answers--we are saved from ourselves; we are saved to live a happier life etc etc. I think that because in Adventism the Law was so distorted and misused, we sometimes don't see the beauty of the Law of God, which is really contained in the whole Bible, not just the decalogue. But, I like to read sermons by great Reformed writers on the Law, as grace becomes ever more amazing! Stan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Thanks so much for the quote from John. I've read it before many times, but just hadn't internalized it. (It's the exact answer to the question I was trying to ask). I feel the need to re-state my comment from above. It sounds almost cynical and I didn't mean it that way at all. What I was thinking is that there's nothing in my humanity that would willingly want to see God's utter holiness because it is diametrically opposed to my utter depravity. Thanks, Chris and Stan for 'talking' this through with me. Like I said, I don't know why it's taking me so long to see this issue without the 'fog'. Stan, thanks for the link, I'll be sure to listen to that broadcast. And, I like your point that because as Adventists, we were abused with the Mosaic Law, we can miss the beauty of the Law of God. While, this evening has certainly been an aha moment for me, I guess the question still remains in my mind, 'Whom does God awaken with His Spirit?' The answer certainly doesn't seem to be everyone. But then the the step from that to an elect few is still very difficult to accept (at least in my humanity). On the other hand, I can truly say that I have come to trust God so much that in a sense I don't even really care anymore. He is Who He is and by His Grace, I choose Him! I am grateful!! Well, I look forward to any more discussion on the issue! Thank you again... Patria | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 208 Registered: 4-2005  |
Patria, Trailing Loraine Boettner as my Flag Ship here I find many of his explainations most helpful. He points out an early impression I had when first being exposed to true Reformation theology and John Calvin's writings; that the teaching of predestination encourages carlessness and indifference about moral conduct and one's growth in grace, on the ground that my eternal welfare has already been secured. This perilous position has also been tagged "cheap grace." But this system of theology holds forth a great principle that the means as well as the ends are foreordained. God's decree that the earth should be fruitful did not exclude but included, the sunlight, showers, the tillage of farmer, etc. If God has foreordained a man to have a crop of corn, He has also foreordained him to plow and plant and cultivate and to do all other necessary things to secure a good, healthy crop. So the election of some to eternal enjoyment of heaven includes their election to holiness here. It is not the individual as such, but the individual as holy and virtuous, that is predestined to eternal life. In the plainest language Paul taught that the very purpose of election is, "That we should be holy and without blemish before him in Love," Eph 1:4; that we are "foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, " Rom 8:29; and that "God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thes 2:13. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed," Ac 13:48. In otherwords, the predestinated, called, justified, glorified ones are the same, Rom 8:29,30. The ideal Christian, of course, would commit no sin at all. Though certainly saved, he is saved for good works. (2 Cor 6:3) The Scriptures know of no perseverance which is not a perseverance in holiness, and obedience to God's will, which certainly would include the moral statutes contained in the Law. Virtue and piety, are the effect and not the cause of election. Once one sees the unspeakable beauty of God's election, our having been called, given faith to believe, then grace to fire that faith and make it possible; this person longs to please God in all things. His purpose is to live a holy life, an obedient life; but he will never reach the level of holiness and righteousness demanded by our Holy sovereign God; yet we will bear some fruits for His glory while striving on the path of faith here below. That which lies unfulfilled, along with all the slips and fallling we do daily, will be made up by Christ's righteousness when we are glorified. And we will approach God in true holiness; made so by His own holiness. The believer does not refrain from stealing or taking God's name in vain, or adultery or addiction to pornography IN ORDER TO keep God's Commandments; but out of a deep heart yearning to not offend our Holy God and to please Him and glorify Him by living a pure life. Sin no longer dominates and rules; but we do commit sins, in spite of our desire not to; because of our nature. We love the Law because it speaks of God's holiness; magnifies Him; and represents principles upon which His holy government is founded. We begin to love the law in a way I assume David testified that he loved it; not as a strict set of 10 rules of conduct, and not out of fear of the consequences of failing; but because we have "the mind of Christ" and are united to Him and His life as branches to the Vine. And our heart's deepest desire is to please Him who gave His all for us! Whereas we used to rationalize and excuse some of our sinful acts; even things like telling dirty jokes; now it pains us to recall our previous life style; and we now long to please God so as to bring glory to Him. It is not at all a matter of working to earn merits but an unrestrained changed attitude that now loves Christ and FATHER so much we only want to please Them in all things. That is our motive; not works or strict commands; but love and gratitude for His unspeakable gift. See 1 Cor 1:30,31. And God's Grace is solely responsible for this change in my attitude. Jess |
