| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey all! It's time for my yearly visit to the FAF forum! (Sorry, I really would like to chat more often! Is there a way, I wonder, to send email notifications when someone replies to a comment you've written?) Anyway... I've had several thoughts about Sabbath-rest in the last few months, so today I started a blog to write a bit of it down as the Spirit leads. http://sabbath-rest.blogspot.com/ I put up a few links to other FA sites, but haven't put up a link to my guestbook for fear of nasty comments & condemnations from Sabbatarians. If they want to comment, they can leave a comment on the post, not on the guestbook. But if you'd like to say hi to my wife and I, you can email or follow the homepage link and find the guestbook. Anyway, let me know what you think of the first post about "work" in the Garden! ***** By the way, I wanted to say to Colleen, THANK YOU for the comment about the Sabbath you wrote two issues ago in Proclamation! Two people had written in about the OC Sabbath day beginning in Eden, and you wrote a very concise response. So concise, in fact, that I've thought of copying it and whipping it out if I'm in a discussion with Adventists. Would it be all right if I copied your words (and your name!) and put them on one of my website if the occasion or need arises? Or if I emailed them to family & friends? ***** News with me: Currently I'm having a slow-starting Bible study with my father. Last month, I also went twice and visited the SDA church where I used to be a missionary (Osaka SDA Center). Recently I've felt God's heart strongly for His kids in Adventism who are blinded by trying to see Him through the OC Law. I considered visiting again this morning, but felt the Lord telling me it wasn't time just yet. Next month I know I'll go once (when a friend & former missionary from the States visits). Please do pray for me, and pray more for the people who are there to know the joy of resting in Jesus, of finding Him to be such a great Sabbath-rest as we could never have imagined or asked for. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3856 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hey, good to see you again, Ramone! Of course you can use the quote. No problem. Thanks for checking in, updating us, and inviting us to your blog. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2005 |
"God does have works for us to do, but they are the works of Eden, per say. They are different than the works we have known. They are done from a position of victory, from a position of already being at rest." Now that's GOOD NEWS!! Thanks for sharing your blog. Patria | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 491 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thank you for that blogspot Ramone. It helped me this morning. Mary | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2006  |
On this subject of "the Sabbath" I would highly recommend a book called "SABBATH: Finding Rest, Renewal, and Delight in our Busy Lives". It is not a "religious" book per se, but it explains the concept of "sabbath" as rest in a remarkable way that I think many people could really use. As I said, it is not a "religious" book, so it is not about the Sabbath rest in Jesus as you all have talked about, but rather it is about the idea of setting aside a special time (whether a day or an hour) to give our body, our mind, and our spirit a much needed rest and renewal time. I think it is especially relevant in these times when so many people seem to be so busy--on the go all the time, never taking a break from the pressures of daily lives. We all need this. That's the way I understand the original Sabbath. It was a special time, when the people didn't have to deal with the daily grind of their often difficult and exhausting lives. But, as so often happens, the rules that were set up to provide this special rest time, became the focus. And the Sabbath became just another added burden---not at all the rest it was intended to be. I don't know what it is about us humans, but we seem to be inclined to do that, don't we? Focus on the specifics of "laws", rather than the outcome those laws were designed to produce. This is all explained quite nicely in one chapter entitled "Legalism and the Dreary Sabbath". Can we all relate to THAT concept?! When I began reading this book, I realized: although I had been out of the SDA church, and indeed out of all religion for many years, still I have been practicing and zealously guarding my own "sabbath"--my weekends. For many years I worked long dreary hours at a job that thoroughly drained me, and I was very possessive of my weekend time, because I depended on it to renew me to survive another week. I never called it "sabbath" certainly, as that brought up all kinds of negative connotations for me---but it was a time that I set aside for things like resting, reading, writing, or any other activities that might refresh my mind and soul. And, on occasions when circumstances caused me to miss out on my "sabbath rest", it was always apparent during the week following that I had not had my much needed rest. I know that this is not probably what many of you are referring to when you talk about sabbath, but I do think it's a concept that anyone could put to good use in their busy lives. And I definitely think it might be helpful to some Adventists to realize that the purpose of the Jewish Sabbath was not so much for the people to "please" God by keeping a bunch of silly rules, but rather, God was trying to help them by giving them the rest and renewal (physical as well as spiritual) that they needed. The Sabbath was indeed made for man, but sadly, many of us never realize it. So, happy "Sabbath", folks! I'm going to go sit down with my books and my big pot of tea right now! Joyce  | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2005 |
What a beautiful word about rest. It was for me today. Thank you for your blog Lisa | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2006 |
On this subject of "the Sabbath" I would highly recommend a book called "SABBATH: Finding Rest, Renewal, and Delight in our Busy Lives". It is not a "religious" book per se, but it explains the concept of "sabbath" as rest in a remarkable way that I think many people could really use. As I said, it is not a "religious" book, so it is not about the Sabbath rest in Jesus as you all have talked about, but rather it is about the idea of setting aside a special time (whether a day or an hour) to give our body, our mind, and our spirit a much needed rest and renewal time. I think it is especially relevant in these times when so many people seem to be so busy--on the go all the time, never taking a break from the pressures of daily lives. We all need this. That's the way I understand the original Sabbath. It was a special time, when the people didn't have to deal with the daily grind of their often difficult and exhausting lives. But, as so often happens, the rules that were set up to provide this special rest time, became the focus. And the Sabbath became just another added burden---not at all the rest it was intended to be. I don't know what it is about us humans, but we seem to be inclined to do that, don't we? Focus on the specifics of "laws", rather than the outcome those laws were designed to produce. This is all explained quite nicely in one chapter entitled "Legalism and the Dreary Sabbath". Can we all relate to THAT concept?! When I began reading this book, I realized: although I had been out of the SDA church, and indeed out of all religion for many years, still I have been practicing and zealously guarding my own "sabbath"--my weekends. For many years I worked long dreary hours at a job that thoroughly drained me, and I was very possessive of my weekend time, because I depended on it to renew me to survive another week. I never called it "sabbath" certainly, as that brought up all kinds of negative connotations for me---but it was a time that I set aside for things like resting, reading, writing, or any other activities that might refresh my mind and soul. And, on occasions when circumstances caused me to miss out on my "sabbath rest", it was always apparent during the week following that I had not had my much needed rest. I know that this is not probably what many of you are referring to when you talk about sabbath, but I do think it's a concept that anyone could put to good use in their busy lives. And I definitely think it might be helpful to some Adventists to realize that the purpose of the Jewish Sabbath was not so much for the people to "please" God by keeping a bunch of silly rules, but rather, God was trying to help them by giving them the rest and renewal (physical as well as spiritual) that they needed. The Sabbath was indeed made for man, but sadly, many of us never realize it. So, happy "Sabbath", folks! I'm going to go sit down with my books and my big pot of tea right now! Joyce | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sorry, I hit the button again and posted my last message twice. Does anyone know how to remove it? Joyce | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2006 |
The fact that Jesus is our sabbath-rest means that we dont need a day of rest? Can we work week after week without a day of rest? The fact that we are save in Jesus means that we dont need to set apart time (dayly and weekly) for pray, read the bible, church attendance, hear sermons, etc.? Can the christian of this generation ignore the teachings and practices of the christians of the past? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1599 Registered: 3-2005 |
Joyce, I relate exactly to what you said about rest. If not thought of legalistically, there is nothing wrong at all with the concept of calling rest time "Sabbath". I have been too hung up over this term because of my upbringing, but frankly , I am having less trouble understanding what other Christians mean to be Sabbath, vs. what we were taught in legalistic Adventism. There is a world of difference---but there are some churches that regard Sunday just like SDAs do Saturday, and that is a problem. Stan | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2006 |
Rafael, I agree--viewing Jesus as our "sabbath rest" does not mean that we no longer need rest. I think that the sabbath rest in Jesus is certainly an ongoing "rest" and an ongoing source of comfort and relief from the old fears that we had in Adventism. However, I still enjoy my weekends as a time to rest, rejuvenate, and have the opportunity to devote more time to those things that I find most meaningful and uplifting. But, now that I have a better understanding (a non-legalistic understanding) of God, it is a constant source of comfort and hope and well-being--something I never knew about as an Adventist. Back then, religion was something I "had" to do on Saturday, but then, as soon as it was over I could relax and forget about it for a week until I had to do it all over again. I never experienced God as anything except a source of fear and intimidation. Now, I have my very existence in the Love of God. Quite a different experience, that's for sure. Of course, I look forward to attending my church's services every week as an extra special time of fellowship and sharing that experience of God's love with others of like mind, but the understanding I have now of God is actually a positive and wonderful thing that I embrace eagerly as a very important part of my life---every day of the week. I live now in a continual awareness of God's loving and sustaining and protective Presence, something I never could have imagined as an Adventist. Stan, I don't actually use the word "sabbath" myself when referring to any day, certainly not Sunday. Like you, I feel it's one of those Adventist "buzz-words" that gives me the heeby-jeebies. But I definitely understand the concept of a special "time-out" so much better than I think most Adventists ever will. And yes, I've known a few people who treat Sundays the way Adventists do Saturdays. In fact, I once dated a man (a very conservative Baptist) who was somewhat that way. We could go out on Fridays or Saturdays, but never on Sunday. Happily, that was my "sabath rest" from him (but that's a whole other story!!). Joyce | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think I want to add something to the direction the conversation went, towards needing physical rest, etc. The kind of rest I ended up praying for at the end of the blog post (here: http://sabbath-rest.blogspot.com/2006/04/work-in-garden-of-his-rest.html) was something that some Christians have begun calling "soaking" in His presence, or others have called meditative or contemplative prayer. I think "soaking" is perhaps one of the best words for it, though. It means going into His presence and resting in Him -- resting from your striving to reach Him, and realizing that He is with you and in you now. Now it's wonderful (and necessary, as He leads you) to find times and set them aside to rest in Him. But yet He can awaken you to His presence any time. "Being in His rest" can happen everywhere, and indeed we're resting in Him all the time, though often we strive and act like our "old man" (as Paul would say). The focal point of this resting is Him. Mind you, not you thinking about Him, but waiting on Him and letting Him be Himself. Often one of my greatest obstacles is my need to read something, a book, even the Bible, to study, to get more information, when He's actually calling me to be still and know Him. Stop striving, and let Him *be*. It's very easy to "do something spiritual", read something, or teach or preach to others, and mistake these for being fellowshiping with Him. I do that a lot. A friend put it in perspective for me the other day, asking, "Do we spend more time talking to others about Him, telling them about Him, or talking *to Him*?" It's such a contrast to actually be with Him! And when you know He's with you (*in* you!), when He manifests His "otherness" to you (yet from the inside of you!), then there is nothing else in the world like that! He's great! And this can happen even while you're working. In fact, most of the time (if not all), the "work" He calls us to is supposed to be done from this position of resting in Him, in knowing Him. Suddenly the work is not nearly as heavy, and becomes a joy. I named that post on my blog "Work in the Garden of His Rest" and totally forgot a great example of resting in Him and yet working. My friend in California felt the Lord leading her to make her backyard into an English garden. As she rested in the Lord and followed the Spirit, the work was not tiring like regular work. She communed with God as she did it and was constantly refreshed by His presence. I am sure God wants to turn our whole "work" world upside down. See, He took the curse for us---the curse of toil from the fall---and has begun New Creation in us. In Him the curse is ended and life has come forth. As He is in us and we in Him, the curse is also broken and ended in us. As we follow Him in the Spirit, His Spirit can refresh us and lead us in His refreshing rest, even as we "work". He wants to do this not only in our "quiet" times, but especially in our whole everyday lives. I think it's interesting to find that in the Old Testament there is a word for "work" that also can be translated as "worship". It was used for the "work" of the priests & Levites in the temple. As we are now all His temple, and He has made us each and every one a priest, then wouldn't all the "work" of our lives be consecrated? I like how the end of Zechariah has God saying that all the pots & pans would be inscribed "Holy to the Lord". I'm praying I can always know His presence, when escaping to a quiet time alone with Him, and especially in "work" and other things every day. And I'm praying for hunger to run to Him, and not mistake "Him" for reading about Him, studying about Him, or telling others about Him. Hmm, I really want to run and do that now... | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2006 |
Agapetos, acording to you we not need a day of rest because we can rest in Him while we are working, that means (acording to you) that we will not get tired of working. Let me ask you, do you sleep? Jesus said: "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.... John 6:35 (New International Version) May be, we not need to eat or drink water any more because Jesus is the bread and the water of life. When was the last time that you eat or drink water because your body need it? | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2005 |
Rafael_r, What is your point? | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2006 |
Brian3, if you want to know my point, just think. Stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) ®...and often enough the saying is proved, that "what's true is not new; what's new is not true®® ®...God has blessed the first day of the week, and so put his seal upon it. God has not left his church without a Sabbath, nor without tokens of his approbation in her observance of the first day of the week as the day of rest and devotion. On this day his word has been preached for the conversion of sinners, and the sacraments dispensed for the edification of the faithful, for many hundreds of years. And where has religion flourished, with all the interests of morality, personal and social? Where have religion and good order declined? Any tyro [i.e., novice] can answer these questions. With Sabbathófirst day Sabbathóobservance, every spiritual and moral interest has flourished; with Sabbath desecration comes in a flood of all kinds of evil. As religion revives, is not the Sabbath more strictly kept? as it declines, is it not more loosely observed? God has blessed the Sabbathóthe Lordís dayóthe Christian Sabbath... A voice from heaven could hardly make it more evident than does the manifest blessing of God upon his day. And it proves that it is his mind and will that his church and the nations should keep, to the end of this dispensation, the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath.®óJames Chrystie. In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead". | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2005 |
Rafael_r - Brian3, if you want to know my point, just think. If you want to get your point across you should do so clearly. Rafael_r - Stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) Rafael_r®...and often enough the saying is proved, that "what's true is not new; what's new is not true®® Rafael_r - ®...God has blessed the first day of the week, and so put his seal upon it. God has not left his church without a Sabbath, nor without tokens of his approbation in her observance of the first day of the week as the day of rest and devotion. On this day his word has been preached for the conversion of sinners, and the sacraments dispensed for the edification of the faithful, for many hundreds of years. And where has religion flourished, with all the interests of morality, personal and social? Where have religion and good order declined? Any tyro [i.e., novice] can answer these questions. With Sabbathófirst day Sabbathóobservance, every spiritual and moral interest has flourished; with Sabbath desecration comes in a flood of all kinds of evil. As religion revives, is not the Sabbath more strictly kept? as it declines, is it not more loosely observed? God has blessed the Sabbathóthe Lordís dayóthe Christian Sabbath... A voice from heaven could hardly make it more evident than does the manifest blessing of God upon his day. And it proves that it is his mind and will that his church and the nations should keep, to the end of this dispensation, the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath.®óJames Chrystie. That is a nice opinion from James Chrystie and nothing more. I have found no evidence in scripture that enjoins a "Christian Sabbath" observance on New Covenant believers. Rafael_r - In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead". That the early church eventually settled on the 1st day of the week for corporate worship in celebration of the resurection while historically accurate still does not, in my opinion, enjoin a "Christian Sabbath" observance on New Covenant believers | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2006 |
Brian3, you said well ®in my opinion®, because the bible says : 7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrews 13:7-8 (New International Version) and 9I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Revelation 1:9-10 (New International Version) The example of an Apostol is better than your opinion. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2005 |
Whether John had his vision on a Sunday or If he was taken in vision to the eschatological "Day of the Lord" does nothing to bolster your assertion that New Covenant Christians are required to "Keep" a "Christian Sabbath" | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2006 |
The fact is that John was in the Spirit in the Lord¥s day, that in itself is an example for the beleiver. The fact is that the Lord gave his vision to John in His day, in doing that He honoured His day again. The point is that from the very beginning of the christianity and through the centuries the Lord¥s day have been the special day of our Holy Religion, and you know what, nobady in this forum can deny that. ®...and often enough the saying is proved, that "what's true is not new; what's new is not true® | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2005 |
An example of what? Keeping a day sacred, or spending quality time with the Lord? I believe in the New Covenant there are no more Holy days for we are to keep every day Holy and do all for the glory of God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3990 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Brian3. See Colossians 2:16-17. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Rafael_r, Sorry I didn't get to reply to what you'd written sooner. Eating, drinking, sleeping, resting... often I do what my parents have raised me to do, and yet the greatest influence is the Holy Spirit. The law of the Spirit is life and we no longer live by the letter. If you're unsure about when to do what or whatever, my advice is to seek the Spirit. There will likely be a difference between what He tells you and what He tells me for how you order the routine (or lack thereof) in your daily life. This is in keeping with Romans 14. God lives in you, and your context is different than mine. Finally, I would beg of you consideration of this wonderful and liberating truth: We who *believe* enter God's rest (Heb.4:3). My "Sabbath" does not end, just like the "rest" of Eden. The Good News is not about a day----it is about a Man, the Son of Man. Those who learn of this rest and enter it, worshiping by the Spirit (who lives in them) and by the truth (Christ, who has set us free) often find themselves no longer bound by locale or times. Have you never known the thrill of having the Spirit rise up inside of you and crying out to find a quiet place to worship God---in the middle of the week? Have you done this with friends before? Have you experienced the joy of worshiping Him anytime, any place, anywhere and everywhere? Dude, it's FUN!!! I tell you that a thing is going to happen and is now happening in the Body of Christ all over the world---a generation is being raised (and older generations are being raised from religious death) who are throwing off everything that hinders them from worshiping Christ anywhere, everywhere, anytime, any place. They are finding the Lord and they are ushering in His coming, because it is such worshipers that the Father's heart has been crying out for. As long as we hold onto the Old Covenant ("a Sabbath day", being one example) and focus on its glory, we will continue to think that "the old wine is better", not knowing that with Christ it is the *new* wine that is better. Those who hold onto laws and traditions constantly want to "get back" to keeping the traditions, and they longingly look to yesteryear (sometimes looking back to a revival that happened a century ago!). But the glory of Christ has each new day in Him surpassing the previous day. We look forward to spending time with Him *every* day, because we become immersed deeper and deeper in His love for us and in His love for the nations. Be careful that in championing the Old Wine that you do not miss out on what the Lord is doing among His people today and the freedom He is showing them in what His Son has done for them. We must live by the law of the Spirit and feed on Christ daily, not being drunk on the wine of the Old Covenant laws (whether a 7th day Sabbath or a re-written 1st/8th day Sabbath). If we are so drunk as to see the glory of the Old, we will not see the glory of the New Covenant, and though people will enjoy it around us, we will miss it: "Take care that what the prophets said does not happen to you: 'Behold, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'" (Acts 13:41-42) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4022 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great points, Agapatos. I love your contrast of the glory of Christ with the old wine of the Old Covenant. Colleen |
