| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 680 Registered: 4-2000  |
Joyce, Thank you for your comments. My suggestion is that you simply give God all the glory in compelling, wooing, and drawing you to Him over many years. Indeed, He has been faithful to you in enabling you to be a seeker. Indeed, we do the believing and seeking after He bestows to us the gift of faith. God isn't finished with you yet. God is not the fugitive. Jesus came to SEEK and to SAVE the lost--not those who insist they are basically good in themselves. Salvation is a gift to received, not a goal to be achieved. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2005 |
You're right about the second part of the warning, Lori. That was part of it too. Isn't it fascinating how predictable the reactions are, that even without me stating the whole argument, others here already know what the whole argument is? Regarding the limited atonement thing...sorry, but I'm a little hung up on this. Am I the only one that seems to have a problem or confusion with this? To me (and maybe I'm over-reacting), it seems to be just as big of an issue as the understanding of the trinity semantics, or ellenisms, or other things that are discussed here. In fact, I think this is even more important to understand because those things may potentially change our beliefs in the SDA church, but Calvinist theology changes our idea of God, and salvation, and Christ's death! I'm having a hard time with believing that Jesus only died for some of us. Again, I can sort of understand the being chosen part, but I always thought that Jesus died for everyone, but only those that were chosen (or God's spirit awaken in them) would accept His gift of grace. I know if you believe in God choosing us, the results are the same whether there is a limited atonement or not. It's one thing for that to be the case, but another that Jesus only died for a select few. For some reason, that's just really an unsettling thought. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2005 |
By the way, I hope I didn't come across as minimizing the importance of discussing the trinity, Ellen, or those other issues formers deal with. Indirectly, understanding the truth in those issues, changes our idea of God, salvation, and Christ's death too! Sorry, I wasn't fully thinking when I wrote above. I'm just stuck on the limited atonement thing because it just seems so off to me. And I feel as if I'm the only one seeing an issue with it, so I want to understand why. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1206 Registered: 10-2004  |
Grace, I like what Spurgeon said; that the Arminians are actually the ones who limit the atonement. If we believe in universal atonement (that Jesus died for everyone), then His death did not actually secure our salvation, it only made our salvation possible. But the Bible says that Jesus actually purchased us with His blood. The Bible says that He actually atoned for and put away our sin by His sacrifice. It would be unjust for sins that have been atoned for to be punished later. They cannot be--they have been canceled. Jesus actually satisfied God's wrath on the Cross--there is no more wrath to be poured out upon those for whom He died. In other words, according to the Bible, if we believe in universal atonement then we must believe in universal salvation. But the Bible clearly teaches against that.  Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1590 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, We have finally come to a point of full agreement! (smiley). Grace, I wouldn't become too concerned at this point about all the points we have been discussing. It took me about eight years after I became saved, to become convinced of the full sovereignty of God. I was raised in the depend on yourself tradition. Jeremy has explained the concept of the DEFINITE atonement (that term is so much better than limited atonement). It adds so much to our assurance that Christ died specifically for our sins. If Christ payed the penalty for everyone, then salvation depends on us. This is also where liberal Adventism gets its theology of universalism as Jeremy pointed out. However, I want to stress that everyone who is trusting in Christ alone for salvation is definitely saved. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1218 Registered: 7-2003  |
So if the student were to open his or her mouth to accept the donut, would that be adding something to Steve's push ups? Chris | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 315 Registered: 5-2004 |
Wow! I left overnight and had to spend most of the morning catching up What a fascinating discussion! Grace, I guess I'm kind of with you on the limited atonement thing. Everyone brings up really great points, and Jeremy I guess you're right in that if Jesus died for the whole world, then the whole world would need to be saved. But it just still doesn't feel (for lack of a better term) right that He only died for some. What if you're not one of the "some" and still want to be saved? I'm curious about how some of these texts are applied? Joh 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. Joh 11:48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, Joh 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish." Joh 11:51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. Joh 11:53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him. Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." Rom 11:9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. Rom 11:10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! We were just studying Rom 11 last night. In vs 7 and 25 I can see how maybe there's a select group, or chosen ones. But then in vs 15, 28-29, and 32 it seems to imply a more universal application. That all who "want" (maybe) are offered salvation. And even further, that all of Israel will receive salvation. Perplexedly.... (with deference to Hannah...there just wasn't any other word) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks, Jeremy for the explanation. I hadn't thought of it that way before. I guess I am/was (not sure anymore) still looking at Jesus' death as giving us a possibility for salvation rather than actually securing our salvation. And you're right Stan, "definite atonement" is a much better term than "limited atonement". Thanks -- I think it will take awhile for me to process this whole concept. It's definitely different from Adventist thought. It makes sense now, it's just SO different. And I guess it is comforting to know that our salvation is secure, for those of us who have become Christ followers. But for those close to me who aren't yet, it's not so comforting. I guess that's where trust in God's ultimate sovereignty and faithfulness comes in. Grace | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 316 Registered: 5-2004 |
Chris, I just saw your last post. I would think that opening your mouth would be adding something of your own. But wouldn't that be comparable to believing? I know that God is the one who awakens us to be able to have faith, but aren't we supposed to believe? I guess I don't view belief as a work. It's not anything I do to help along my salvation, but it's required that I believe. In studying out of adventism I couldn't help but see all the many times Jesus talks about belief being linked to salvation (which made a huge imprint at the time because it wasn't law related). I guess I'm still perlexed. I'm really glad we're discussing these concepts! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 317 Registered: 5-2004 |
Just rethinking everything here, and I guess I don't really sit in one camp or the other. I find that the arguments on both sides make sense (well, the scripture actually, rather than arguments) and although I do find more and more that I turn towards the ultimate sovereignty of God, I'm still somewhere in the middle of actually accepting the "L" in tupip. Jeremy, what you said really makes a lot of sense. That if Christ died for everyone, then He only makes it possible to be saved. But, what about all the people who chose not to believe? Isn't it about Christ purchasing salvation for everyone who will turn to Him for salvation? Like Moses and the serpent in the desert...all who lifted up their eyes and looked were healed. They didn't DO anything that should have helped in their healing. They weren't asked to cut open the wound and let it bleed or anything else. They just had to turn from their own thoughts/fears/needs and look... | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 318 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sorry, I just keep having thoughts about this. Again with the snake. It could be argued that their looking was "doing" or "adding". But in reality, they weren't healing themselves. God healed them. But they were turning to Him, believing and trusting Him, consequently turning away from themselves and acknowleding their utter dependance. Conversly, did God gently reach down and cause some of them to look up at the serpent, while not doing the same for others? Or was He there for everyone who desired Him? I realize that He's the one who awakens the ability to desire Him, but does He actually cause the turning from ourselves? Just pondering... | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 476 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mmmmmm....donuts.......aggghhhhhhh.... | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2006  |
Grace, as just a "1st generation never was-er in cahoots with formers" as Melissa and I choose to call ourselves, I would like to share a discussion my wife and I had in one of our recent bible studies. I am the one who opened the topic and I can't claim originality. I don't remember who opened my eyes to it years ago but it explains a lot to me. Christ did die for all of us. But pre-destination depends on a point of view. We are limited to only one point of view-the other view is God's alone. I'll try to explain. God is not restricted to time as we are. We all agree that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient right? Then why do we not remember that He is omnitemporal as well? And I don't even find that word in the dictionary. We are all on a time-line that God created because we are temporal beings and could not exist without calenders and clocks. So we naturally see God as travelling through this world with us along that time line. But, because He is God, he has the ability to look ahead and he knows what will happen and who will be saved. But if He is omnitemporal He is not LOOKING ahead-he is there. Please don't dismiss me here. While right now I am sitting at my computer typing this God is with you right now reading it. At the same time God is, right now, at creation, He is ,right now, in the Garden of Eden, he is, right now, at the Cross, He is, right now, at the Rapture and He is, right now, at the Great White Throne Judgement. And He is at every place and at every time RIGHT NOW. He encompasses this time line, he is not just IN it. He created it. He sees the beginning from the end because He is before the beginning of the time line and beyond it's end! So from our limited view we don't know if Joe Shmoe will be saved, he still has that decision to make, so there is no predestination. However, God is there right now reading the names in the book and he is seeing that Joe's name is either there or not, right now. So from God's view I guess we are predestined. No one in our Bible study refuted this and I certainly don't. Anyway, I offer it as food for thought. We tend to minimize God. It's our nature to make things understandable for ourselves and it's hard to picture God as that big. That's part of the reason we need the Man Christ Jesus to identify with. CW | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1219 Registered: 7-2003 |
CW, I would add one more dimension to God's knowledge of time, space, and eternity. Not only does He exhaustively know everything that was, everything that is, and everthing that ever will be, but he also exhaustively knows everything that ever COULD be (or to put it another way, everything that ever COULD have been). What do I mean by this? I mean that God knows all possible created worlds exhaustively, each individual that would ever exist or not exist in each world, and every single act and decision they would ever make. And yet, knowing all this, God specifically and sovereignly chose to create this particular world with these individuals populating it and all their resultant actions and decisions. God actualized this world and not some other. If God really has this type of knowledge, and I see absolutely no reason to limit God by saying He doesn't, then the implications of this in terms of predestination and human choice blow me away. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3849 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, ChrisóI agreeóand I also find your last question significant. I don't see how that student could have opened his mouth apart from Godóer, the professoróholding that donut up and nudging. Yet I don't see that student's response once the donut touched his lips "adding" to his receipt of the sweetness of salvation. He wouldn't have opened his lips without the professor's intitial and persistent intervention. I still see mystery here, and both commands to believe and statements of election. I really don't think we can totally quantify it or we miss the huge reality of God's eternity and of what we can't see because we're stuck in time and three dimensions. Reality is bigger than what we can see. I know, though, that I am often filled with wonder and thankfulness to God for awakening me and choosing me. From this side of coming to know Him, I absolutely KNOW that He called me. I would never have found my way out of the darkness of deception apart from Him. Yet there were specific points in the process where I had to decide if I would risk following Him through the door He held open. Colossian 1:13: "He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and has transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son." We've been studying election and calling in our monthly women's systematic theology classes at church, using Wayne Grudem's "Bible Doctrines" as a text. Elizabeth Inrig described Jesus' sacrifice this way: "Jesus blood was SUFFICIENT for the whole world but EFFICACIOUS only for the elect. " I found that helpful. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 480 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, thanks ! ! ""Jesus blood was SUFFICIENT for the whole world but EFFICACIOUS only for the elect. "" Now that makes sense to me. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1208 Registered: 10-2004 |
Esther, You wrote: "What if you're not one of the 'some' and still want to be saved?" That's impossible. Only the elect want to be saved (they're the only ones who want to saved by God's Way at least) and that is only after God changes their will. We can know that anyone who truly trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is saved. Those who are not elected to salvation do not want to trust Christ for salvation. They willfully choose to reject Jesus Christ. "I know that God is the one who awakens us to be able to have faith, but aren't we supposed to believe?" Actually, God actually gives us faith in Jesus. It's a gift. Yes, we must believe in Jesus to be saved--but that is all a work and gift of God. God irresistibly draws us to Himself and gifts us with faith/causes us to believe. Grace, You wrote: "But for those close to me who aren't yet, it's not so comforting." But I would think that it would not be so comforting if we believe that they may be lost because we didn't say the right thing to them, or that we caused them to reject Christ by a wrong action of ours, etc. I feel a lot better knowing that it's all left up to God's perfect sovereign will but that we just need to do what we are commanded to do, proclaim the Gospel, and leave the results up to God. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 28, 2006) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2005 |
Good point, Jeremy. It does seem like it would work out better if it was all left up to God's perfect sovereign will. As I read that, it seems so obvious put that way. Again, I've never thought about it that way before. It keeps coming back to that trust and submitting thing, huh? I'm beginning to see a trend . Boy, this is tough... | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2005 |
One more question: What would be the point of proclaiming the gospel or praying for people? Is it to glorify God, when their Spirits do become alive? Why would God need us to help accomplish His will if His will is already all planned out and essentially done? I don't mean to beat this topic to death. I'm just learning a lot. There have been some great insights where I haven't thought of things "from that perspective" before. This discussion has really been good for me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3855 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jesus commanded us to preach and make disciples. It's what He equips us to do when He seals us with His Spirit. And Paul says in Romans 10:13-15, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!' " God clearly planned that in the eternal scheme of things, His people, filled with His literal presence, would speak His words to the dark world. He also asks us to pray that God would send workers into the harvest. He asks us to love our enemies and pray for those who despitefully use us. When we are in Him, our "job", so to speak, is to offer ouselves as living sacrifices to Him (Romans 12:1) and to obey Him when He brings His work to us to do. We witness to His reality and power, and we speak for Him and about Him. This is our response to His equipping of us. As our pastor said in a sermon one Sunday, there is a certain tension with which we have to hold the reality of election and the reality that God asks us to preach and to choose to serve Him. I'm beginning to see it this way: God's sovereignty is an overarching reality that covers all creation like an unseen "umbrella". Under that sovereign umbrella, we make choices that have eternal consequences (Wayne Grudem has an excellent discussion of this in his book Bible Doctrines). God Himself brings us to spiritual awakening so we actually CAN make choices that do not lead to death, and our choices matter for eternity. Colleen |
