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Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 1223
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, I'm a little blow away here as I have not heard this theology before. I am curious if anyone else has. I was teaching through a section of John in my Sunday school class and came upon this passage.


quote:

John 7:17 (NASB)
17 "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.




Most of the commentators say something to the effect that Jesus is saying that a necessary part of knowing and understanding truth is being willing to be obedient to it. So I presented this and brought out the point that having head knowledge like the Jewish leaders did is not enough, we also need to experience the relationship side of the equation where we are experiencing truth through obedience. As we respond to truth we will receive more truth. This is part of being in relationship with God.

I had a guy get very angry and call me on the carpet telling me that I was practicing eisegesis and that this passage didn't have anything to do with having a relationship with God. He said that Jesus was talking to the Jews and the Jews did not have a relationship with God, they only had the Law. So since the Jews had no realtionship with God, what Jesus was doing in this passage was commanding them to keep the Law. I asked him if the people prior to the cross had no relationship with God, then how were they saved. I wanted to bring out that people before and after the cross are saved the same way, by faith (i.e. their right relationship with God was not obtained via the Law but by faith). To my great suprise he said, "They weren't saved". I was blown away. I asked, "Are you saying that none of the Old Testament saints have eternal life?" He said, "No, with the exception of a few who are specifically mentioned like Enoch and Elijah".

I directed him to Hebrews 11 which recounts many of the great Old Testament saints of faith, but he just got more upset and stated, "You're doing an eisegesis study [sic]. If you weren't you would've stayed in John". The guy didn't even want to shake my hand afterwards when I came up to him to thank him for being willing to engage in dialogue. He was really ticked at me.

I've never heard such a thing. The OT saints aren't saved! They didn't have a relationship with God! This guy says he's been to Bible school so he knows this is true. Does anyone know where I could track down this theology to research it a little more? Is this some form of fringe hyper-dispensationalism? It's not often that I come across theology that I've never even heard of, but I did today and I'm at a complete loss. Any assistance anyone could give would be helpful.

Thanks,

Chris
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1368
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New one to me. Did he have a response to Hebrews 11? (besides attacking being out of John... like one book is going to contradict another??)
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, not really. It was just the strangest thing. You want to hear the scariest thing? He has served as a youth minister previously and has an appointment with our pastor this week to talk about leading the youth group. I just talked to a gal on the phone that was in the same area preparing for kids church. She told me that that she overheard the coversation, thought his assertions were really shocking, and went and told our pastor. So at least the pastor is aware. I've got to tell you, this one has really thrown me for a loop. I've had people disagree with me before which is just fine, but this was just strange. He was so adamant and absolutely sure of what he was saying. I gave him several opportunities to drop it gracefully and tried to be very loving about the whole thing, but he wouldn't let it go. I'm really second guessing myself tonight on how I should have responded, what I should have said, and if there was a flaw to the way I approached the passage that set him off to begin with. I REALLY don't like conflict, especially in front of a number of people. I'm not doing that well right now.

Chris
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2506
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I did an internet search and found the following:
"Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation."
I did not get the name of the site, but when I did the search the line explaining what was on the site said Eisegesis definition.
Hope this helps.
Diana


Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3863
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I have never heard of such a notion. It sounds as if you responded to this man in a wonderful wayóhis defensiveness betrayed that he felt trapped. Confident people don't need to be defensive.

It sounds as if he wanted an excuse to uphold the Mosaic lawóand your treaching took him right out of the old covenant into the new. I'm thankful someone told the pastor what he said, because people like that are dangerous as teachers. I would not want my teenager to be in his youth group; people like that tend to me controlling, rigid, and to seek "controllable" peopleóhence, young people to whom he can ingratiate himself and who, in return, will be loyal and unquestioning.

Chris, you don't need to be hard on yourself. You were, I believe, correct in your interpretation, and you handled the situation with authority and brotherly regard. He was trapped in his own poor theology, and he didn't have the grace to admit it.

God will redeem this situation for His glory and for His truth. And praise God that it happened in a venue where someone was able to speak to the proper people about his theology before he was given charge of teens.

Colleen
Lisa_boyldavis
Registered user
Username: Lisa_boyldavis

Post Number: 201
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,

God may have used you to dialogue with this cowboy unawares, which gave the Lord a chance to expose his twisted teachings, loose his chance at youth ministry which in turn would protect the kids in that fellowship. We don't always know what's going on behind the scenes. Just keep telling the truth and let God figure out the outcomes. And if you figure out what in the world he's talking about, I'd love to know. That is a real stretch that Abraham and Adam and Methuselah and David, etc... not saved. There'd be no chance for me, that's for sure:-)


Lisa

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