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Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 5:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello

I have been thinking about the FB's, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html, and have some questions in this regard.

I know that these are changed now and then I'm not sure about the frequency though.

Now there is 28 FB's.

The last one added is number 11:

11. Growing in Christ:
By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25.)

Sounds very evangelical, my first thought is the never ending road for SDA to apear evangelical/christian.

But I'm wondering if there is something behind this beleif something between the lines, another reason than apearing evangelical? Do you have some insider information on this one?

Also would be nice to know what you think about this change.

My Adventist friend did not know of this change and thought there were 26/27 beleifs. Yes you read corret not 26 or 27 beleifs but 26/27 beleifs. She was arguing that one beleif had been split up in two, I recognize this, but at the same time I was a bit firm that one cant look at it like 26/27, only 27 or 26.

Something bothers me a little bit: "In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer,"

Sounds like a a _work_ to me in a sence, like I have to pray to God everyday, an obligation.

Also what follows "feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church"

I'm not sure how to read it exactly, but one might read this as an obligation as well each and every day, anyways I think they don't mean every day to these things.

I feel like I want to do all of these things but it is the spirit which drives me, its in no way an obligation for me.

Have a nice day

Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3868
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mwh, I have to say I'm amazed at your grasp of the subtleties of meaning in these Adventist doctrines. This tells me that you really do understand the gospel and the significance of Jesus' fulfilling the law and the prophets and ushering in the new covenant.

You are right to sense something "suspicious" in this phrase, "In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer."

First of all, this belief was added to the church's official Fundamental Beliefs at the General Conference Session held last July. (The GC meets in session every five years.) This belief was added, the official publications said, because of a couple of things. First, SDA missionaries were experiencing problems with the spirits in mission fieldsópeople being under the influence of their religions' evil spirits, etc.óand the missionaries felt there was no "official" or consistent method available for them which which to deal with the spirits. Consequently, the church established an official statement about the Holy Spirit and His power over the evil spirits. (I find it interesting that these missionaries needed the church to tell them what to do. That reveals the lack so many of them have of a personal understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives and in the world.)

Second, the church had no official statement of how to live the "Christian life" and to grow spiritually once becoming "converted". Hence, they added a statement about continuing Bible study, prayer, and growth.

Now, back to the statement you mentioned. Ellen White clearly taught that the "work" of sanctification is to develop the character of Christ. This means that somehow, with the help of the "power" of the Holy Spirit, a true Adventist will find himself gradually improving in his ability to keep the law. She taught that a person must be becoming "perfect". If he dies before reaching perfection, Christ will "make up the difference" if that person's life was on a general trend of improvement.

In the last days, during the time of trouble just before Jesus comes, those who are alive will have reached perfection if they are ready for heaven. She stated that during the time of trouble, God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from the earth, and those who are going to be saved will stand "without a mediator" because the character of Jesus has been perfectly reproduced in them.

This character reproduction is NOT what we understand to be the new birth. Adventist theology does not allow for the new birth, because they insist that people do not have a spirit other than their breath. They do not teach or understand that the human spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit when someone believes in Jesus. What they teach is that in some mysterious way the Holy Spirit gives them power to make decisions to obey the law and to deny themselves, thus helping them become more and more perfect, or growing "into the likeness of His character."

They teach that the way you grow into the likeness of Jesus' character is by reading the Bible, praying, (and yesóthese then become works necessary for the attainment of perfection), and living by the food laws, confessing any known sins, and keeping the Sabbath especially.

It's frustrating and hopeless, and they live without knowing whether or not they are saved. They only HOPE that their characters are on an upward growth curve, and that Jesus will make up the difference if they die before the second coming.

I hope this helps.

Colleenh
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I notice several things wrong with that statement of belief.

First, it says: "He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom."

Their "ultimate doom" has always been certain. That false teaching comes from their "Great Controversy" scenario, where God's universe and God Himself are threatened.

They also say in that statement that we only have "victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us" as long as we "walk with Him" (which means keep the Ten Commandments, etc.).

They also say: "Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds."

We are only set free from our past sins, and even that is only if we are "continually committed to Jesus" (meaning keeping "His commandments," [which they claim are the Ten Commandments (which are actually, when translated literally, "the Ten Words") especially the Sabbath], etc.). Ellen G. White teaches that even our confessed, repented of (which includes "forsaking"/quit committing), and "forgiven" past sins will be de-forgiven (to make up a new word!) and come back to condemn us (even after having "pardon" written next to them) if we do not become perfect. In other words, even our past sins have not really been forgiven according to Adventism.

Also, SDAs don't teach that the Holy Spirit permanently/continuously indwells believers. Ellen G. White has many statements where she says to "plead for the Holy Spirit," etc.

This is hinted at when they say: "As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience."

Notice that it's only as long as we give ourselves in service that we have the constant presence of the Spirit.

Also in that sentence there is a subtle hint of their heretical teaching that Jesus Himself is not omnipresent, ever since the incarnation. Ellen G. White and their official belief book explaining their fundamentals, Seventh-day Adventists Believe ... A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines (online at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm, although they have just released a recently edited version including their new fundamental) both teach this heresy.

Also, as Colleen mentioned above, "grow into the likeness of His character" means "become perfect" ("grow into" = become, and "the likeness of His character" = perfect).

And "participating in the mission of the Church" refers specifically to the SDA church (the only true, "Remnant Church"), and spreading the unique SDA/EGW message ("the Three Angels' Messages").

Wow, I never realized until now how bad that newest "Evangelical-sounding" belief really is!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on May 01, 2006)
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 371
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 7:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy
You caght the statment that jumped out at me "past deeds" That one always slams me in the face. Jesus died for our past sins but we have to work out the rest with His help.

I serve a God who died for ALL my sins past, present and future! I serve the most powerful God who can take care of me completely. He is capable of indwelling in me and changing me.
Praise Jesus to Him be the glory.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3883
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last year at a baptism at our church, a girl about 7 or 8 years old gave her testimony before being baptized. (I still can't get over how moving it is to hear children tell of acceptng Jesus and knowing Hm and being aware of Him with them. Wow, can you imagine what our lives would have been like if we had known Jesus like that at such early ages?!)

I remember this girl saying with absolute confidence, "Jesus died for all the sins in my past and for all the sins I haven't committed yet." It was way cute, but it made me cry. She knew it and meant it.

As you said, Violet, Praise Jesus and to Him be the glory!

Colleen
Wooliee
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Username: Wooliee

Post Number: 80
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not asking this to be a "smarty pants," because I genuinely want to hear your responses and learn. If we have accepted the grace and salvation of Jesus as a covering for all of our sins past, present, and future, which I fully believe and rejoice over, does God expect us to continually pray for forgiveness of our sins? When Jesus taught about prayer He said, "Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us." (Luke 11:4) Is it that daily acknowledging our sinfulness and need for God's forgiveness keeps us humble and aware of our desperate need for Him?

Thank you for your help,
Julie
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3885
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Julie, I know that some Christian teachers do teach that we are not to pray for forgiveness because that is already taken care of when we accept Jesus' sacrifice.

Your quoting the Lord's Prayer is apt. Although we stand secure in Jesus when we have been saved, we still have sinful flesh, and the process of our lives in Him is a process of deeper and deeper healing and personal surrender. When we sin against another person, we must ask their forgivenessóand we do still sin against people after our new birth. If we don't repent to the other person, we have an unhealed rupture in the relationship, and we help plant a root of bitterness in that rupture.

It is appropriate to confess to Jesus when we acknowledge our sins in our lives. Some sins are deep and hidden from the sight of othersósome are in our heads and hearts, and God is the only one who is aware of our transgression. Our asking forgiveness does not mean we aren't already safe in Jesus' atoning blood; it is, rather, an acknowledgment of our weakness.

I personally believe that merely asking forgivenessókind of like a forumlaóis pointless. Unless our repentance for our sins is accompnaied by our submission to the Lord Jesus and our request for Him to take that weak place in us and make us like Him, the mere words of repentance really don't mean much. As a Christ-follower, I believe that God sequentially reveals to me layers of self-serving and self-protection that He wants me to surrender to Him so He can be fully seen in me and be my all-in-all. As He deals with my habitual character flaws, I find I have to admit my guilt to Him in surrender and humility. If I don't do that, I'm not really allowing Him to make me new in all the ways He desires to do so.

The Lord's prayer is an apprpriate model, I believe, because Jesus gave it as a model for believers. "Our Father," it beginsóand we know that only those who are born from above are adopted as His sons and daughters (Romans 8: 12-17). Inside the security of our salvation and our new birth in Jesus, He disciplines us (Hebrews 12:1-12), and He makes us increasingly aware of the ways in which we must allow Him to be Lord over us and over our lives.

He is faithful and so merciful. I praise Him for His discipline and His love and His continual presence. No other religion has a God who personally loves and changes His people!

Colleen
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1372
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beyond the fact that the model exists in the Lord's prayer, I think of how I have historically avoided praying because of the sin in my life, and thinking God could not possibly want to talk to such a failure. When you ask forgiveness, it sortof "clears the air" so that your communion, relationship with God is mended. While I certainly know that all of my failures are forgiven by the cross, it's hard to talk to someone you know sees all your faults. Get it on the table and put it behind you. Elsewise, it seems Satan's friends are always whispering in your ear "I know what you did". I try to avoid giving him those opportunites. I'm hard enough on myself! It is a real growth area for me to be transparent to the one who can see everything.

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