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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 6:05 am: |     |
Hi everybody!
Yet another question for me, this time regarding the Sabbath. My Adventist friend and I have been talking about this dear topic and our conversation was led to when the Sabbath was given, I thought it was given on the mount sinai with the law and I asked her if she could point out if it was given earlier and she could it seems.
About two weeks earlier in the Desert of Sin, see Exodus 16.
This is still very close in time to the ten commandments though but never the less before.
To me this however does not change much, I still think that the israelits did not know about the sabbath before God told them through moses.
A thing I noticed in the end of this chapter, exodus 16:33-35 in perticular 34, was the talk about the testimony which I take to mean the covenant, my spanish translation of the NIV reads pacto, which made this clear to me.
34 As the LORD commanded Moses, Aaron put the manna in front of the Testimony, that it might be kept.
34 AarÛn puso el man· ante el arca del *pacto, para que fuera conservado como se lo ordenÛ el SeÒor a MoisÈs.
And the covenant was the ten commandments as well right?
Like moses knew about the ten commandments at this point.
Please be quick to correct me in these thoughts, they are in a very difuse state for me right now.
In other words, i'm not sure about what verse 34 is saying to us. I'm confused about the chronology order of the events.
Faith, hope and love |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 319
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 7:35 am: | |
Mhw,
Great questions! Someone once explained it to me like this:
If you look back through the exodus story, you will see that God was leading the COI out of Egypt in a very magnificent and even representative way. They had watched all of the curses come upon the Egyptians and yet they were protected. They applied the symbolic (though they didnít know it) blood and were spared death. They passed through the sea piled on either side. They followed God Himself, leading them from the pillar of fire. From there, 3 or 4 times (forgive me, I donít have time to look it up right now) God tested them and their faith in Him. They cried out for water and He provided. They wined about food, and He provided.
At the point of this Bread giving, which was representative of Christ Jesus, they were also instructed about the Sabbath. Again, a kind of test to see if they truly believed and trusted Him. Everyone accepts that the manna is symbolic of Jesus, and yet the Sabbath was given and made known to them at the same time. Right along with the Bread. The Sabbath was also symbolic of the Rest in Jesus. Just as He is the Bread of Life, He is also the Rest for our SoulsÖ the Rest from our own works of salvation. Sabbath is a symbol the same way the Bread was a symbol.
In the same manner that Abraham was tested, so were the COI. Abraham was asked to leave his home land to a land he did not know. He left. He was later asked to sacrifice his only son, which he was willing to do. This doesnít mean he was sinless, but he did follow God. At each point on their exodus the COI griped, whined, and complained against God. It was shortly after this that God led them to Sinai, and gave them the law. Almost as if He was telling them, ìif you canít walk by faith, hereís the alternativeî. Interestingly enough, a little later God was so angered by their lack of understanding and obedience that He threatened to destroy them all except Moses. And Moses had to beg for God to be faithful to the promise to Abraham.
I truly believe that God knew and even planned on the fact that Israel would fail so miserably at this ìwalking with Godî thing. Godís plans and calling are irrevocable, and He sees the beginning from the end. Paul hints to the fact that Israelís (as Godís chosen nation) abominations and hardening of heart is the means God is using to complete the time of the Gentiles. (Rom 10-11) We should ever try to learn from their mistakes, and missed lessons as so much of what they went through was symbolic of things we have access to or that are soon to come as believers in Christ. So even though my temptation is to look at them and think, ìWhat foolishness and stupidity. No wonder God had to lay it all out for them in dos and donítsî. But, Iíve come to be so grateful for their lack of understanding, because from their lessons and repeated instructions, I can grow and learn for my own lack of understanding. What a blessing we have as Believers to be on this side of the Cross, with the Holy Spirit willing and ready to work with each of us and lead us into understanding.
Praise God for Jesus! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 9:00 am: | |
The sabbath, as the seventh day, was first given when the COI were given the manna as Esther wrote it so very nicely. Then at Mt Sinai, Deut 5:1-3, it was given again with the 10 commandments and all the rules/regulations(covenant) for the temple. It was given only to the COI.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3867
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 9:36 am: | |
Mwh, you're right about your understanding of verse 34. In verse 33, God commanded Moses to save a jar of manna to place "before the Lord to be kept thoughout your generations". (An interesting command, since any manna the Israelites saved was spoiled the next morning.)
Verse 34 then tells that Aaron, in fulfullment of God's command to Moses, "placed it before the Testimony, to be kept."
The manna happened about one month before God gave the law at Sinai. Verse 34 is the narrator (Moses) telling from his "omnicsient" perspective (to use a literary term!) what ultimately happened with that saved manna. When Moses wrote Exodus, these events were already in the past.
It's also significiant that Aaron is the one who placed the manna before the Testimony (and you're right; the 10 Commandments were the words of the covenant) because he became the high priest, the only person with permission to enter the Most Holy Place where the Testimony resided.
Exodus 16 is the first place where the Sabbath is mentioned, and as Esther explained, God gave the symbols of the Bread of Life and Rest in Christ at the same time. It was a powerful sign; if Israel would eat the Bread of Life, God would preserve their supply to last during the Sabbath as they rested in His work done for them. He supplied their source of life, and He gave them rest from their work on the Sabbath. This whole episode foreshadowed God's provision of life and continuing rest for His people by means of His sufficient and completed work for them.
Colleen |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
Mwh,
Yes, the Sabbath was first given in Exodus 16. This was before Sinai, yes, but so was the commandment to observe Passover each year. The Israelites were instructed to observe the annual Passover in Exodus 12. It is clear that God was already starting to give them the Mosaic Covenant/Law.
The following passages also make it clear that the Sabbath was first given (and to Israel only) after Israel left Egypt, crossed the Red Sea, and came into the wilderness: Deuteronomy 5:15, Ezekiel 20:10-12, and Nehemiah 9:9-15.
Exodus 31:12-18 tells us that the Sabbath was the sign of the Old/Mosaic Covenant between God and Israel, to sanctify them ("set them apart" from the Gentiles).
Jeremy |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
As Colleen pointed out above, Exodus 16:34 is an anachronism, meaning Moses was skipping ahead in his narrative to a later event. This is also what Moses was doing in Genesis 2:3, when he wrote: "And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."
This is describing what happened later in Exodus 16 when God gave the Sabbath to Israel, making the seventh day holy. This verse (Genesis 2:3) is also quoting from the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, where God explains why He blessed the seventh day in Exodus 16: "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:11 NIV.)
Jeremy |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 6:53 pm: | |
Wow im blown away by your knowledge  thanks to all of you for enlighten me. |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 276
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:03 pm: | |
Mwh:
I am so curious about your knowledge. How is it that you have such a wonderful grasp on the simple Truths of the Bible? Did you grow up in a particular denomination? Have you learned the Bible on your own? I ask because I am still searching for a place to 'fit' in Evangelical Christianity.
Jeremy:
You stole my thunder! Or at least I thought it was thunder (hehe). I just heard a sermon by Clay Peck and for the first time, heard the idea that Gen. 2:3 is an anachronism. At least I don't remember hearing it before. OH MAN! That makes so much sense! Another piece of the puzzle that fits together so well.
In Christ,
Patria |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 10:29 am: | |
I'm a Christian, I belive the spirit is living in me, I belive that it is guiding me, to know truth and lies both in daily life but especially when the word is preached (theologies formed). I get a kind of bad feeling when I hear a false teaching...
I'm not very savy in my bible, thats the truth, but I have a hunger for the word each and every day, I long to be home with the Lord but at the same time I like to stay here and point to his light.
I've been a Christian for little bit more than a year. I've been around Christians though most of my life through being a scout, though I began to go to church regulary about 6 years ago, I did not belive in the word of God at that point though. I converted last year in the summer.
My upbringing has been in a more or less normal family of non christians.
Every day I feel I know God a little bit more, but I know Ill first know fully when I'm home, I almost cant wait.
Right now I'm member of ‰rhus Valgmenighed, http://www.valgmenighed.dk/, in Denmark, but I live in Spain, at the moment. Here I mainly participate in two baptist churches, but I try to visit as many different churches as posible.
4 of my 6 years of church going I went to an Apostolic church.
‰rhus valgmenighed is Lutheran/protestant. Personally I agree with a lot of the New Covenant Theology and I don't see myself like a lutheran or baptist .. I'm a Christian.
I have learned a lot about God from other Christians, from the churches I have been going to and from Christians all over the world .. thanks to the internet.
May the holly spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ guide and comfort you |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
®I get a kind of bad feeling when I hear a false teaching®
Me too, I remember that after my convertion (1988) I started to feel strange in the sda church, it was like something within me was telling me that God wasn¥t there.
Be careful Mwh, test every thing, test every body, test yourself, be careful of new things, if advice you to fallow this rule in the interpretation of the Scriture:
"Let there be no innovation - nothing but what has been handed down."
That holy and prudent man well knew that true piety admits no other rules than:
 Whatsoever things have been faithfully received from our fathers, the same are to be faithfully consigned to our children.
 It is our duty, not to lead religion wherever we would, but rather to follow the True Religion wherever it leads us.
 It is the role of Christian modesty and gravity not to hand down our personal beliefs or observances to those who come after us, but to preserve and keep what we have received from those who went before us.
What then was the issue of the whole matter? The usual and customary one. Antiquity was retained, novelty was rejected.
"Pass not beyond the ancient bounds which thy fathers have set." [Prov. 22:28]
"Judge not against a Judge." [Ecclus. 8:17]
"He that breaketh a hedge, a serpent shall bite him." [Eccles. 10:8]
And finally that saying of the Apostle with which, as with a spiritual sword, all the wicked novelties of all heresies often have been, and will always have to be, decapitated:
"O Timothy, keep the deposit, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. Which some professing have erred concerning the faith." [1 Tim. 6:20-21]
[52.] After words such as these, is there anyone of so hardened a front, with such anvil-like impudence, or such diamond-like stubbornness, so as not to succumb to so huge a mass, not to be crushed by so ponderous a weight, not to be shaken in pieces by such heavy blows, or not to be annihilated by such dreadful thunderbolts of divine eloquence? "Shun profane novelties," he says. He does not say shun "antiquity." But he plainly points to what ought to follow by the rule of contrary. For if novelty is to be shunned, antiquity is to be held fast; if novelty is profane, antiquity is sacred. He adds, "And oppositions of knowledge falsely so called." "Falsely called" indeed, as applied to the doctrines of heretics, where ignorance is disguised as knowledge, fog as sunshine, darkness as light. "Which some professing have erred concerning the faith." Professing what? Some (I know not what) new and unheard-of doctrine. For you may hear some of these same teachers say:
"Come, O silly wretches, who go by the name of Catholics, come and learn the true faith, which no one but ourselves is acquainted with. It has lain hidden these many ages, but has recently been revealed and made manifest. But learn it by stealth and in secret, for you will be delighted with it. Moreover, when you have learned it, teach it by stealth, so that the world may not hear, and that the Church may not know. For there are but few to whom it is granted to receive the secret of so great a mystery."
Are not these the words of that harlot who, in the proverbs of Solomon, calls to the passengers who go on a straight path:
"He that is a little one, let him turn in to me." [Prov. 9:16]
And as for them that are void of understanding, she exhorts them [to eat and drink,] saying:
"Stolen waters are sweeter, and hidden bread is more pleasant." [Prov. 9:17]
What next?
"And he did not know that her guests are in the depths of hell." [Prov. 9:18]
Who are those "guests"? Let the apostle explain: "Those who have erred concerning the faith." [1 Tim. 6:21]
CHAPTER 22. A more particular Exposition of 1 Tim. 6:20-21.
[53.] But it is worthwhile to explain the whole of that passage of the apostle more fully:
"O Timothy, keep the deposit, avoiding profane novelties of words." [1 Tim. 6:20]
"O!" The exclamation implies fore-knowledge as well as charity. For he mourned in anticipation over the errors which he foresaw. Who is the Timothy of today, but either generally the Universal Church, or in particular, all the bishops, who must either themselves possess or communicate to others a complete knowledge of religion? What is "Keep the deposit"? "Keep it," because of thieves, because of adversaries, lest, while men sleep, they sow tares over that good wheat which the Son of Man had sown in his field. "Keep the deposit." What is "The deposit"? What has been entrusted to you, not what have yourself thought up: a matter not of creativity, but of learning; not of private adoption, but of public tradition; a matter brought to you, not put forth by you. In this you are bound not to be an author but a keeper, not a teacher but a disciple, not a leader but a follower. "Keep the deposit." Preserve the talent of Catholic Faith inviolate, unadulterated. What has been entrusted to you, let it continue in your possession, let it be handed on by you. You have received gold; give gold in turn. Do not substitute one thing for another. Do not shamelessly substitute for gold lead or brass. Give real gold, not counterfeit.
O Timothy! O Priest! O Expositor! O Teacher! If the divine gift has qualified you by intelligence, by skill, by learning, be a Bazaleel of the spiritual tabernacle. [Exod. 31:2-11] Engrave the precious gems of divine doctrine, fit them in accurately, adorn them skillfully, add splendor, grace, beauty. Let what formerly was believed, though imperfectly understood, be clearly understood through your preaching. Let posterity welcome, understood through your exposition, what antiquity venerated without understanding. Yet teach still the same truths which you have learned, so that though you speak in a new way, what you speak about may not be new.
CHAPTER 23. On Development in Religious Knowledge.
[54.] But someone will say perhaps: Shall there, then, be no progress in Christ's Church? Certainly; all possible progress. For what being is there, so envious of men, so full of hatred to God, who would seek to forbid it? Yet on condition that it be real progress, not alteration of the faith. For progress requires that the subject be expanded on. Alteration demands that it be transformed into something else. The intelligence, then, the knowledge and the wisdom, of individuals as of all, of one man as of the whole Church, ought, in the course of ages and centuries, to increase and make much and vigorous progress. Yet this progress must be only in its own kind; that is to say, in the same doctrine, in the same sense, and in the same meaning.
[55.] The growth of religion in the soul must be analogous to the growth of the body, which, though in process of years it is developed and attains its full size, yet it remains still the same...®
The Commonitory of Vincent of Lerins |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3875
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
Mwh, your story is such a witness to the power of the Holy Spirit to teach us and to make us new. God is faithful to be our teacher, and He has left us the most amazing revelation of His heartóthe Bible.
We're glad you're here with us!
Colleen |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 2:45 pm: | |
Colleen what means the next verse for you:
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
1 Corinthians 14:36 (New International Version)
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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3877
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 7:43 pm: | |
Rafael, in context this text appears in Paul's exhortation to the Corinthian church on their use of spiritual gifts. Apparently they were quite undisciplined in their meetings, with people speaking in toungues, prophesying, and generally flaunting their individual gifts. Paul is telling them that God is a God of order, not confusion, and they are to defer to one another and must limit the numbers of prophecies and messages in tongues at each meeting.
After laying out the rules for quiet and respectful worship he says, in verse 36-37, "Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment."
Paul in this text is being sarcastic, suggesting to the Corinthians (whose church is notorious for having serious spiritual problems) that they were setting themselves up as individual recipients of God's revelation and authority. He is reminding them that they did not originate God's word, nor did God first reveal His word to them. Rather, God first revealed His word to the the Jews and subsequently authorized the apostles to take His word to the world. He also stresses that his teaching is the Lord's commandment, thus asserting that his epistles have the same weight as the rest of Scripture.
God's word to us is what is set forth in the Bible. All other teaching is commentary. Scripture is God's word, and God's word comes directly from God. God does not have subsequent "generations" of His word in addition to Scripture. In fact, this 1 Corinthians 14:36 supports the idea that people cannot assume that they have direct or unique revelation from God that is necessary for knowing God's will regarding salvation.
God's word originates with Him, not with people, and it is universal. No group of men or women has special privileges in the area of having special access to God's private will. His will is clearly and publicly set forth in the Bible.
Collleen |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 5:39 am: | |
As in all the congregations of the saints,...36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
What? came the word of God out from you?
&c.] That you must give laws to other churches, and introduce new customs and practices never known or used before? No; the word of the Lord came out of Zion, and the law or doctrine of the Lord, the word of the Gospel, the doctrine of the grace of God, came out of Jerusalem. The apostles that first preached it were Jews, and they preached it first in their own land, and planted churches there, before it came to the Gentiles; and therefore the apostle suggests it would be right to consider what was the practice of the churches in Judea, the first Gospel churches, concerning women's speaking in the church, and to conform thereunto; when they would be able to observe, that these first churches from whence the word of God came to them, disallowed of any such practice, but in this point agreed with the old synagogue:
or came it unto you only?
no, it came to many other nations, and people, and towns, and cities besides them; and many churches were formed among the Gentiles, who had no such custom, did not permit their women to speak in the church; and therefore why should they be singular and different from all others? other churches had the word of God, had gifts, and prophesying as well as they, and yet had introduced no such custom; and therefore it became them to pay a deference to the judgment and practice of others, especially since these were under, and acted according to the direction of the apostle, which they ought to have been subject to.
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
In these verses the apostle closes his argument, 1. With a just rebuke of the Corinthians for their extravagant pride and self-conceit: they so managed with their spiritual gifts as no church did like them; they behaved in a manner by themselves, and would not easily endure control nor regulation. Now, says the apostle, to beat down this arrogant humour, "Came the gospel out from you? Or came it to you only? v. 36. Did Christianity come our of Corinth? was its original among you? Or, if not, is it now limited and confined to you? are you the only church favoured with divine revelations, that you will depart from the decent usages of all other churches, and, to make ostentation of your spiritual gifts, bring confusion into Christian assemblies? How intolerably assuming is this behaviour! Pray bethink yourselves.íí When it was needful or proper the apostle could rebuke with all authority; and surely his rebukes, if ever, were proper here. Note, Those must be reproved and humbled whose spiritual pride and self-conceit throw Christian churches and assemblies into confusion, though such men will hardly bear even the rebukes of an apostle. 2. He lets them know that what he said to them was the command of God; nor durst any true prophet, any one really inspired, deny it (v. 37): "If any man think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge, etc., nay, let him be tried by this very rule. If he will not own what I deliver on this head to be the will of Christ, he himself never had the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ can never contradict itself; if it speak in me, and in them, it must speak the same things in both. If their revelations contradict mine, they do not come from the same Spirit; either I or they must be false prophets. By this therefore you may know them. If they say that my directions in this matter are no divine commandments, you may depend upon it they are not divinely inspired. But if any continue after all, through prejudice or obstinacy, uncertain or ignorant whether they or I speak by the Spirit of God, they must be left under the power of this ignorance. If their pretences to inspiration can stand in competition with the apostolical character and powers which I have, I have lost all my authority and influence; and the persons who allow of this competition against me are out of the reach of conviction, and must be left to themselves.íí Note, It is just with God to leave those to the blindness of their own minds who wilfully shut out the light. Those who would be ignorant in so plain a case were justly left under the power of their mistake. 3. He sums up all in two general advices:ó(1.) That though they should not despise the gift of tongues, nor altogether disuse it, under the regulations mentioned, yet they should prefer prophesying. This is indeed the scope of the whole argument. It was to be preferred to the other, because it was the more useful gift. (2.) He charges them to let all things be done decently and in order (v. 40), that is, that they should avoid every thing that was manifestly indecent and disorderly. Not that they should hence take occasion to bring into the Christian church and worship any thing that a vain mind might think ornamental to it, or that would help to set it off. Such indecencies and disorders as he had remarked upon were especially to be shunned. They must do nothing that was manifestly childish (v. 20), or that would give occasion to say they were mad (v. 23), nor must they act so as to breed confusion, v. 33. This would be utterly indecent; it would make a tumult and mob of a Christian assembly. But they were to do things in order; they were to speak one after another, and not all at once; take their turns, and not interrupt one another. To do otherwise was to destroy the end of a Christians ministry, and all assemblies for Christian worship. Note, Manifest indecencies and disorders are to be carefully kept out of all Christian churches, and every part of divine worship. They should have nothing in them that is childish, absurd, ridiculous, wild, or tumultuous; but all parts of divine worship should be carried on in a manly, grave, rational, composed, and orderly manner. God is not to be dishonoured, nor his worship disgraced, by our unbecoming and disorderly performance of it and attendance at it.
Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible
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Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 9:00 am: | |
® God's word originates with Him, not with people, and it is universal. No group of men or women has special privileges in the area of having special access to God's private will. His will is clearly and publicly set forth in the Bible. ®
That is the point Colleen, the word of God ®came to many other nations, and people, and towns, and cities®, and The Holy Spirit had worked in the people of God in every generation until this day, we can not interpretate the bible ignoring our past.
What Rule is to be observed in the interpretation of Scripture.
But it will be said, If the words, the sentiments, the promises of Scripture, are appealed to by the Devil and his disciples, of whom some are false apostles, some false prophets and false teachers, and all without exception heretics, what are Catholics and the sons of Mother Church to do? How are they to distinguish truth from falsehood in the sacred Scriptures? They must be very careful to pursue that course which, in the beginning of this Commonitory, we said that holy and learned men had commended to us, that is to say, they must interpret the sacred Canon according to the traditions of the Universal Church and in keeping with the rules of catholic doctrine, in which catholic and Universal Church, moreover, they must follow universality, antiquity, consent. And if at any time a part opposes itself to the whole, novelty to antiquity, the dissent of one or a few who are in error to the consent of all or at all events of the great majority of Catholics, then they must prefer the soundness of the whole to the corruption of a part; in which same whole they must prefer the religion of antiquity to the profaneness of novelty; and in antiquity itself in like manner, to the temerity of one or of a very few they must prefer, first of all, the general decrees, if such there be, of a Universal Council, or if there be no such, then, what is next best, they must follow the consentient belief of many and great masters. Which rule having been faithfully, soberly, and scrupulously observed, we shall with little difficulty detect the noxious errors of heretics as they arise
The Commonitory of Vincent of Lerins
12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[a] 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, YOU MUST UNDERSTAND that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's OWN INTERPRETATION. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought themóbringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories THEY HAVE MADE UP. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[b] putting them into gloomy dungeons[c] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)ó 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[d] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[e] and despise authority.
2 Peter 1:12-2:10 (New International Version)
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Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 189
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 10:26 am: | |
quote:Matthew 7:13-14 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
I believe that our safety in understanding the word of God is not in the consent of all professed believers. Few find the way that leads to life. We need to be teached directly by the Holy Spirit, this is the precious promise of the New Covenant.
Jesus said:
quote:It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me John 6:45
God is teaching us directly, personally, through the Holy Spirit, and I had never found Christ if He had not taught me, through His word by the Holy Spirit. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3882
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 10:53 am: | |
Jackob, you said that so well. Thank you. It is amazing to realize that God is teaching me; He has promised that His word is like the rainóit waters the earth and produces seeds for the sower and a harvest of fruit. "Öso is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it" (Is 55:8-11).
God promised that His word would not return to Him empty. It is powerful and alive, and when we ask God to teach us through His Spirit as we study, He does.
Colleen
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Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:09 am: | |
Then you are the only ones that The Spirit is leading, every body is wrong and you are right.
®....The Spirit of Christ can never contradict itself; if it speak in me, and in them, it must speak the same things in both. If their revelations contradict mine, they do not come from the same Spirit; either I or they must be false prophets...®
"O Timothy, keep the deposit, avoiding profane novelties of words." [1 Tim. 6:20]
"O!" The exclamation implies fore-knowledge as well as charity. For he mourned in anticipation over the errors which he foresaw. Who is the Timothy of today, but either generally the Universal Church, or in particular, all the bishops, who must either themselves possess or communicate to others a complete knowledge of religion? What is "Keep the deposit"? "Keep it," because of thieves, because of adversaries, lest, while men sleep, they sow tares over that good wheat which the Son of Man had sown in his field. "Keep the deposit." What is "The deposit"? What has been entrusted to you, not what have yourself thought up: a matter not of creativity, but of learning; not of private adoption, but of public tradition; a matter brought to you, not put forth by you. In this you are bound not to be an author but a keeper, not a teacher but a disciple, not a leader but a follower. "Keep the deposit." Preserve the talent of Catholic Faith inviolate, unadulterated. What has been entrusted to you, let it continue in your possession, let it be handed on by you. You have received gold; give gold in turn. Do not substitute one thing for another. Do not shamelessly substitute for gold lead or brass. Give real gold, not counterfeit.®
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Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 190
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 12:02 pm: | |
There is coming a day when God will judge everyone and in this day I will stay as today, alone before my God. If I will perish in that day, (anyway, I don't believe this will happen), it will be entirely my fault. The church will not stay between me and my God, only Christ. No sinner will suffer the punishment with me, or in the place of me, if I will perish.
In the face of God's holy judgment, all other people's choices or beliefs are irrelevant. If someone is to be saved, he will be saved only by God alone, only by God's method, and by God's actions. It will be entirely the work of God. His faith will be only the faith given by God, worked by God, and perfected by God. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. If we have Him, we have everything. If we have Him we have THE TRUTH. We are not in the situation to find what the truth is by checking the consensus. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3884
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 1:51 pm: | |
Amen. I especially resonate to your last sentence, Jackobó"We are not in the situation to find what the truth is by checking the consensus."
Colleen |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 3:00 pm: | |
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jude Chapter 1: 3-11
In like manner these dreamers - Sleeping and dreaming all their lives. Despise authority - Those that are invested with it by Christ, and made by him the overseers of his flock. Rail at dignities - The apostle does not seem to speak of worldly dignities. These they had "in admiration for the sake of gain," ver. 16; but those holy men, who for the purity of their lives, the soundness of their doctrine, and the greatness of their labours in the work of the ministry, were truly honourable before God and all good men; and who were grossly vilified by those who turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. Wesley
As unprincipled men, under the name of Christians, had crept in, whose chief object was to lead the unstable and weak to a profane contempt of God, Jude first shews, that the faithful ought not to have been moved by agents of this kind, by which the Church has always been assailed; and yet he exhorts them carefully to beware of such pests. And to render them more hateful and detestable, he denounces on them the approaching vengeance of God, such as their impiety deserved. Now, if we consider what Satan has attempted in our age, from the commencement of the revived gospel, and what arts he still busily employs to subvert the faith, and the fear of God, what was a useful warning in the time of Jude, is more than necessary in our age. But this will appear more fully as we proceed in reading the Epistle. Calvin
Verses 1-4 Christians are called out of the world, from the evil spirit and temper of it; called above the world, to higher and better things, to heaven, things unseen and eternal; called from sin to Christ, from vanity to seriousness, from uncleanness to holiness; and this according to the Divine purpose and grace. If sanctified and glorified, all the honour and glory must be ascribed to God, and to him alone. As it is God who begins the work of grace in the souls of men, so it is he who carries it on, and perfects it. Let us not trust in ourselves, nor in our stock of grace already received, but in him, and in him alone. The mercy of God is the spring and fountain of all the good we have or hope for; mercy, not only to the miserable, but to the guilty. Next to mercy is peace, which we have from the sense of having obtained mercy. From peace springs love; Christ's love to us, our love to him, and our brotherly love to one another. The apostle prays, not that Christians may be content with a little; but that their souls and societies may be full of these things. None are shut out from gospel offers and invitations, but those who obstinately and wickedly shut themselves out. But the application is to all believers, and only to such. It is to the weak as well as to the strong. Those who have received the doctrine of this common salvation, must contend for it, earnestly, not furiously. Lying for the truth is bad; scolding for it is not better.
Those who have received the truth must contend for it, as the apostles did; by suffering with patience and courage for it, not by making others suffer if they will not embrace every notion we call faith, or important. We ought to contend earnestly for the faith, in opposition to those who would corrupt or deprave it; who creep in unawares; who glide in like serpents. And those are the worst of the ungodly, who take encouragement to sin boldly, because the grace of God has abounded, and still abounds so wonderfully, and who are hardened by the extent and fulness of gospel grace, the design of which is to deliver men from sin, and bring them unto God.
Verses 5-7 Outward privileges, profession, and apparent conversion, could not secure those from the vengeance of God, who turned aside in unbelief and disobedience. The destruction of the unbelieving Israelites in the wilderness, shows that none ought to presume on their privileges. They had miracles as their daily bread; yet even they perished in unbelief. A great number of the angels were not pleased with the stations God allotted to them; pride was the main and direct cause or occasion of their fall. The fallen angels are kept to the judgment of the great day; and shall fallen men escape it? Surely not. Consider this in due time. The destruction of Sodom is a loud warning to all, to take heed of, and flee from fleshly lusts that war against the soul, 1 peter Stand in awe, therefore, and sin not, psalms 4:4 . Let us not rest in anything that does not make the soul subject to the obedience of Christ; for nothing but the renewal of our souls to the Divine image by the Holy Spirit, can keep us from being destroyed among the enemies of God. Consider this instance of the angels, and see that no dignity or worth of the creature is of avail. How then should man tremble, who drinketh iniquity like water! job 15:16 .
Verses 8-16 False teachers are dreamers; they greatly defile and grievously wound the soul. These teachers are of a disturbed mind and a seditious spirit; forgetting that the powers that be, are ordained of God, romans 13:1 . As to the contest about the body of Moses, it appears that Satan wished to make the place of his burial known to the Israelites, in order to tempt them to worship him, but he was prevented, and vented his rage in desperate blasphemy. This should remind all who dispute never to bring railing charges. Also learn hence, that we ought to defend those whom God owns. It is hard, if not impossible, to find any enemies to the Christian religion, who did not, and do not, live in open or secret contradiction to the principles of natural religion. Such are here compared to brute beasts, though they often boast of themselves as the wisest of mankind. They corrupt themselves in the things most open and plain. The fault lies, not in their understandings, but in their depraved wills, and their disordered appetites and affections. It is a great reproach, though unjust to religion, when those who profess it are opposed to it in heart and life. The Lord will remedy this in his time and way; not in men's blind way of plucking up the wheat with the tares. It is sad when men begin in the Spirit, and end in the flesh. Twice dead; they had been once dead in their natural, fallen state; but now they are dead again by the evident proofs of their hypocrisy. Dead trees, why cumber they the ground! Away with them to the fire. Raging waves are a terror to sailing passengers; but when they get into port, the noise and terror are ended. False teachers are to expect the worst punishments in this world and in that to come. They glare like meteors, or falling stars, and then sink into the blackness of darkness for ever. We have no mention of the prophecy of Enoch in any other part or place of Scripture; yet one plain text of Scripture, proves any point we are to believe. We find from this, that Christ's coming to judge was prophesied of, as early as the times before the flood. The Lord cometh: what a glorious time will that be! Notice how often the word "ungodly" is repeated. Many now do not at all refer to the terms godly, or ungodly, unless it be to mock at even the words; but it is not so in the language taught us by the Holy Ghost. Hard speeches of one another, especially if ill-grounded, will certainly come into account at the day of judgment. These evil men and seducers are angry at every thing that happens, and never pleased with their own state and condition. Their will and their fancy, are their only rule and law. Those who please their sinful appetites, are most prone to yield to ungovernable passions. The men of God, from the beginning of the world, have declared the doom denounced on them. Such let us avoid. We are to follow men only as they follow Christ. Matthewy henry
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Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 86
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 7:44 am: | |
"The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"
This letter was sent from what was the center of the Christian church in the mid-first century. The people sending the letter were the acknowledged leaders of the church. They claimed to know what the Holy Spirit was speaking.
This would be our model of how to understand the NT church and how "consensus" is reached on what is true doctrine, wouldn't it? The Holy Spirit lives and works through the church leaders and what they decide has the authority of God.
The question would of course be at what point did the visible organized church with it's leaders led by the Holy Spirit cease to exist, and become replaced with individuals led independently by the Holy Spirit?
My answer would be that such never happened, because the original church is still here and the Holy Spirit still guides it's leaders.
This could be demonstrated by the fact that independent individuals do not reach the same conclusions even when claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, while the original church teaches "universality, antiquity, and consent".
When someone like Arius (for instance) comes along and teaches a questionable doctrine, the leaders of the church throughout the world come together and see whether the new teaching disagrees with the tradition passed down from the Apostles in each of their churches. There is prayer and discussion, and ultimately the Holy Spirit directs and something is written down which clarifies the point in question as to what is the truth.
We have no need to change what teachings were already established early in the history of the church. Our business isn't so much to figure out new understandings of doctrinal truths; we should be occupied with becoming dwelling places of God, and loving one another as Christ commanded us.
Jeremiah |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 9:17 am: | |
Jeremiah, I have found good material in the Orthodoxe Church, I¥m reading and re-reading some of their booklets (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/ch_life.htm) is very good; they are like a mixture between RCC and reformormation.
Now I want to ask to those that despice the authority of the Church, that says ®The church will not stay between me and my God, only Christ®, that says ®Christ is my savior and I dont need to follow any authority®, tell me please what is the meaning of this verses:
15"If your brother sins against you,[b] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Matthew 18:15-19
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Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 87
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 1:25 pm: | |
Rafael,
If you want to visit an Orthodox church sometime and have trouble finding one, let me know because I have contacts and can probably help.
Your quote from Matthew 18 is powerful. I like it.
Jeremiah
http://jeremiahsviolins.com |
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