| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 320 Registered: 5-2004 |
I know that we've discussed this before, but I've spent most of the morning looking for where and can't seem to find it. Over the weekend I met with a colleague who was willing to talk with me as I was leaving, and has now studied her own way out. She and her husband have had a long haul in dealing with these issues and coming into agreement on leaving the church. They also had to resign from high profile leadership positions at PMC. Their 12 year old daughter is taking it hard, and doesnít necessarily agree, so for now, they are taking their time and allowing her to remain in the sda school, and attend church. But, they are reading through the Bible with her and are in the early NT. My friend herself, works with a ministry that is actively reaching out to sdaís in the area to counsel them into better relationships with God primarily, and secondarily their spouses/families. In the course of our conversation, she started to really question me about whether we could trust the people (writers of the OT) who were telling us these things about God that were contrary to what we know God is. Ie ultimate love, grace, and acceptance. She was close to adamant that this was all wrong. God wasnít about killing and destruction. As this is something that I used to struggle with and learning to accept Godís sovereignty has really brought me peace about it, I shared with her that humanity is deeply flawed since the fall of Adam. That we are born into sin and I gave her a brief outline on the soul/spirit from Genesis 1-3, John, Romans, Corinthians, and Timothy. I spent quite a bit of time tying in the concept of the Spiritual birth from Jesusí conversation with Niccodemus. She was curious and definitely willing to take the matter to study on her own. I then tried to talk about how as sinful humans, we deserve death. That a perfect, holy, righteous God cannot accept sin. That along with being the perfect father in loving-kindness and grace, He is also perfect in justice. I was then asked why anyone was allowed to live? Why everyone wasnít just obliterated. I also talked about how we ìsee through the mirror dimlyî and canít begin to understand the few God has. I talked about the tsunami, and about how God is the judge of the heart and His ways are not our own. I also mentioned the story in ?Luke where the tower fell and the disciples asked why. Overall the conversation went well, and I told her that Iíd follow up by sending her a few articles. Iím sending along something on the prophecies of Messiah, and how Jesus really fulfilled everything and came and the exact moment planned from the beginning of the earth. I want her to see how God is in control and has this planned, and not that weíre living through thousands of years of ìexperimentî. Iím also going to write a little bit about Job, and how though he was righteous by human standards, God allowed great trouble and pain to come upon him. Yet, in the end Job bowed in submission to Godís knowledge and right. Do any of you have anything else on the topic of the contrast in how God deals with men though? He allowed for Israel to destroy whole nations, women, children, animalsÖ I just accept it, but I canít offer up my acceptance of it as proof to her  | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1369 Registered: 7-2003 |
Esther, I have frequently avoided the OT primarily because I don't like the blood and guts stories, and from a simple perspective, it seems "unfair" to the nations destroyed. However, like you, I think we have to understand God's ways are not our own. I don't think it makes him less loving, but 'presume' that in his all-knowing, like Chris mentioned on a different thread, God knows all choices people could have ever made, and the consequences accordingly. And because of that infinite knowledge, I have to assume God knows something about those nations/people I do not. I'm guessing we have a warped sense of equity depending upon the perspective we are looking from. God has a different perspective than us, but his is not warped. I do not always understand why God has done or allowed certain things into life, and I may kick and scream and whine about the circumstances sometimes, but at the end of the day I eventually find a way to 'surrender' to what is (as though not surrendering would change it!). I really don't know how you explain that to someone. I think it is the Holy Spirit who gives that kind of peace and partial understanding, though we are only viewing things dimly. Some of it, you just have to take on faith of who God is, and as humans have many facets, so does God. If we can't understand people we walk and talk with all the time, how can we possibly expect to understand the almighty whom we cannot always recognize? I always use the mental analogy of two Christian teams praying to God to help them win the game....does God really choose which team will win? Does he not like the team who loses? Are the winners "better" than the losers besides on the field of play? None of us really know the long term reasons for a lot of things that happen, but we have faith that God does and move forward. Doesn't mean there aren't tears and sadness, but my kid complains when I make him stop playing video games too. Answers to every question just aren't promised. I don't know that that explanation will help your friend because it is not concrete. But learning God, like learning any relationship, takes time and work. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3871 Registered: 12-2003  |
Esther, intresting conversation you had! I think you've handled the subject really well. The understanding of human depravity (see Ephesians 2:1-9) is foundational to understanding the OT. God DID wipe out evil man at the flood (Genesis 8), staring over with "new stock" from Noah's family. By the time of Babel (Genesis 11), they had become so evil that God had to intervene to limit the destructive evil of which they would have been capable. Then God started over with still another "new stock" through Abraham (beginning in Genesis 12). This new people had new revelation from Godóthe law and the prophets AND God's physical presence among them in the form of the cloud. God's justice demanded that sin be annhilated. Biblically speaking, creation had no doubts about God's right to wipe out evil. They expected it. It's anthropomorphic to assume that God's primary interest would be to preserve human life at all costs. His glory and justice and mercy are His primary concerns. Romans 3:25-26 explains this reality. God has to prove His justice NOT in destroying evil men but in ALLOWING them to LIVE: "God presented [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedóhe did it to demonstrate his justice at the time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Also acts 14:16: "In the past, he let all nations go their own way." Also Acts 17:30: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance [idolatry], but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." And for a fascinating text on God's sovereignty, read Acts 17:26-28. Detueronomy 9:1-6 discusses Israel's going into Canaan to take the land. In verse 5-6 Moses said, "It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are gong in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickeness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplishe what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Understand then, that is is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people." The issue is sin and evil. The knowledge of God was systematically suppressed in the earth (Romans 1:18-20), and in the OT God sent through a long series of wiping out sin, starting over with new people, and revealing more and more of Himself and His ways. The fact that the whole world hasn't been wiped out is the mysteryónot the fact that God destroyed the evil civilizations that were sacrificing children and cruelly destroying their own enemies. I think you're doing some good responses! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1225 Registered: 7-2003  |
Consider this:
God sent His very own chosen people into slavery in a foreign land for 400 years while He withheld judgment on the nations in Canaan! Only after the iniquity of the Canaanites reached the zenith of depravity, wickedness, and evil did God release His people. The Israelites became Godís instrument to finally end the incredible evil happening in the Land, but only after our long suffering God waited patiently for the iniquity of the Amorite to be complete. In the days of Noah God used a flood to end the evil, in the days of Joshua God used an Israelite army. Unfortunately, the Israelites werenít as thorough as they had been commanded to be. Satanically evil practices, such as the murder of children for religious ceremonies, were never entirely stopped and were even picked up by the Israelites themselves. When I think of God waiting 400 years, twice as long as the United States has even existed, to put an end to such depraved evil I donít tend to ask ìWhy did He judge them?î so much as I ask, ìWhy did He not judge them earlier?î Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 485 Registered: 1-2003  |
Chris, I had never realized the inport of that text. How God in effect withheld His judgements for 400 years before using the Israelites as His instruments of judgement. Usually we just think how aweful for a loving God to kill everyone in a nation. We do not stop to realize how patient He has been. Thanks for shareing that. I'm sure you already are, but please keep your sister in your prayers. She is leading our study group and we all realize that while there is opposition we must rely on the power of the Holy Spirit to open the hearts of those who are ready to learn and see His Word without filters. We are constantly feeling a sense of opposition but also see God working out things in His own way. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3872 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, ChrisóI couldn't remember where that text was, and this A.M. I was too busy to look for it! I hadn't remembered it was directly connected to God's covenant with Abraham. Colleen |
