| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 475 Registered: 5-2002 |
Since this topic was starting to get some attention on the "Does God Command Abortion?" thread, I thought I'd start a thread on this topic since it's a bit close to my heart right now anyway. I cannot tell you how frustrating and invalidating it feels to have SDA members who have only been in the church for a couple of years, and got there via a Revelation Seminar tell me - with a straight face - that I don't know (or worse, am misrepresenting) what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches. Not to toot my own horn, but I feel highly qualified to speak to the subject of what the SDA church teaches, no matter what any greenhorn current member tells me! Nearly all of my family - both immediate and extended - are multi-generation Seventh-day Adventists. At any family gathering, the vast majority were SDA. I have spent many a lazy Sabbath afternoon kicking around theology with committed Seventh-day Adventists. I went to SDA elementary school, SDA academy, and spent a year at an SDA college. I took all the required Bible and Religion classes while I was there. My parents are both highly committed to the historic SDA message and, consequently, had a library consisting of almost every book Ellen G. White wrote (certainly all her "flagship" books and compilations). At one time or another, I have read nearly every word attributed to her pen. We subscribed to the Review and Herald, and I read it faithfully. I have also read hundreds of "My Little Friend", "Junior Guide", and Sabbath School Quarterlies. I read every volume of Arthur S. Maxwell's Bible Stories. I have read the entire Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary. I married into a multi-generational "historic" SDA family. For 15 years, every family gathering of my wife's that I attended was almost exclusively "historic" SDA. Many more lazy Sabbath afternoon theology discussions there... My Mother's Brother was the President of Columbia Union College and the head of the Department of Education at the General Conference. My Father's Brother was the pastor of the Campbell (CA) Seventh-day Adventist church for many years, and married I and my first wife. Many of my other family are currently employed as teachers or administrators within the SDA industrial complex. I went to Sabbath School and church nearly every week for decades. Add Wednesday prayer meetings, Friday and Saturday Vespers, Weeks-of-Prayer, etc... Finally, I grew up at the feet of a well-respected Seventh-day Adventist BIBLE TEACHER. This is the guy that several SDA academies trusted to educate their children in the ways of SDAism, and I was HIS child. Then again, on second thought, what do I know about it?... ;>) | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 313 Registered: 5-2004 |
I totally understand! My "pedigree" is somewhat similar to yours and it gets me really riled when I hear that "well, you don't really understand (or know) adventism" speel. Well than who does know...  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3842 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodnessóI've spouted about this very thing to Richard so many times! It's not only Adventists who tell me I don't really understand Adventism, never-been-Adventists basically tell me that, also! The difference is that God has actually revealed to us the nature of the deception and has shown us where we literally believed heresy was truth because we named it truth. Sometimes I want to say to people, "Why do you think you can understand this church by talking to people who are blinded by the lie? We who have lived it and chosen to take the loss of all our identities to leave it are the ones who can tell you the truthóat least closer to the truth!" Sigh. Sigh again. Colleen | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 366 Registered: 10-2005 |
I didn't have the experience that you have had. I don't have any family in the church and everything I learned was taught to me in Sabbath School as an adult. I was never one to argue with the Adventists or the teachings of the church and I accepted my lifelong Adventist friends as many are wonderful people. I never pretended to know more than I was taught and could never handle anyone who would speak against the church. I think people who say they understand the church and really don't, base their knowledge on people they know that are Adventist. And there is no question that there are good, evangelical sincere adventists. And when they have a personal relationship with these Seventh-day Adventist people who love their church, they are more inclined to believe their Adventist friends. There are Adventists who have grace and are not Christ rejecting believers. I know, I've been one. They just can't see your experience with the church, or my experience. Just as I have health problems that people cannot see, it doesn't make my health problems less painful or non-existent because others just see a healthy external shell when they look at me. If I were still an Adventist and you were to confront me with doctrine that was contrary to the Adventist teachings, I would have assumed the end was getting closer and went into hiding... But I will also say that I believe you are fully accurate in your knowledge of the church and definately know better than people like me as to what Adventism really is in your having such an extensive historial background. I am no longer deceived. It certainly is a deception. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1587 Registered: 3-2005 |
Freeatlast, Thanks for sharing your pedigree. Would you be called a thoroughbred SDA? (smile) Yes, you do understand the true nature of Adventism. Historic Adventism is based on deception, with the false spirit of exclusiveness. I am thankful God has removed the veil that covered our eyes. My prayer is that this spirit of bondage and legalism continues to be broken. Stan | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 801 Registered: 1-2003 |
I too was raised SDA...baptized before the age of reason into it...attended almost all of my schooling at SDA schools, lived in an SDA college ghetto town (not fun), and married SDA. The SDA family I married into is quite involved in the church...one of them traveled for years with Mark Finley, probably still does. One is the principal of an academy, one is the pastor of a big church...you get my drift. What I usually hear is...SDAism was just misrepresented to you. What!?!? I lived it for 40 years! Then I hear, well, your mother talked Ellen White down (which she did...though she is a dyed in the wool Sabbatarian and thinks sabbath-keeping is how you are saved)...she never did buy into all the EGW stuff. My dad did, however, and he was one of the biggest legalists I have ever met! So then I am told that I was taught to question the church because of her. No one seems to believe me when I say I was liberated by a miraculous act of God...only when I threw up my hands and told Him I was through with it...if this is Chrisitanity...I'm done! It was August 2002...I was sitting at my computer when I told God this and I was immediately prompted by the HS to look up Righteousness by faith...and I remembered Ellen approved of Martin Luther...so I was searching out ML and found all kinds of anti-SDA sites...sites I felt I couldn't look at before because is it was traitorous to doubt the prophet! Then I found Greg Taylor's manifesto...he shows how he studied himself out...I did the same study and scripture was opened up to me...I had never seen this stuff!!! Of course, God has been planting seeds for years by bringing real non-SDA christians into my life...I couldn't understand their joy. I remember in particular something I told my friend (very grounded Christian friend) who had been praying for her husband to become a Christian. I gave her some cultic SDA advice...I said, "You may have to be prepared to leave him if he doesn't convert." She rebuked me and said, "With God all things are possible and I am believing it is a done deal!" And sure enough, about a year later he became a believer. I now feel shame that I had that fatalistic SDA mentality going...I was told when I had my kids that I would have to be prepared to lay down their lives for the Sabbath...and this was by my M-I-L whom I wanted respect and approval from! Why would you tell a new mother that?!?! Argh...you see my frustration here. I just want to say...God was working in me years before He acutally liberated me...yes it happened in ONE day. The blinders fell off! But it is so much easier to believe SDAism was misrepresented to me. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 194 Registered: 3-2005 |
This conversation is important. That assumption from family and loved one that my interpretation of Adventism has been wrong is, in my mind, a way for them to justify my leaving. It's all about them and their trying to make sense of the changes in myself and my family. They will never get it until God takes there blinders off. I truly believe some Adventists could not handle the freedom or blinders being removed, and that God has kept them where they are at for a reason. I truly believe that many of my Adventist friends and family are saved, that they are believers, but they are not free, and therefore more fragile. They need my understanding much like a fearful child needs me to look beyond the immediate issues to the big picture of why they are acting the way they do. I am sure most of these fearful souls do not believe they are afraid but are arrogantly proud they have the answers to make sure they have nothing to be afraid of. This does not mean, of course, that they are not working from a fear base. I will, therefore, take their disrespectful arrogance and explaining away our leaving as working from a fear base, reminding myself to pray for them, forgive their ignorance, and to FREE THEM from themselves and the lies that hold them. Freedom is such a wonderful gift. I love living on this side of the fence, totally living under the life of Jesus Blood. This Good News Freedom has changed everything. Lisa | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1592 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lisa, I so much agree with your beliefs about some of our SDA family and friends. Many of them are genuine believers. But I think of Chris Lee's parable in a recent Proclamation --which was a takeoff on John Bunyan's style--about the ship that had those folks in bondage that were not walking with the Captain in the Sonshine. They were on the ship--they were saved--but they were still in bondage. That is true of so many Christians, and not just SDAs. My Mom, who still likes Doug Batchelor, but she now goes with my dad to his Sunday church, and she is delighted about my wife and I finding a new Presbyterian church, but she still lets Adventism keep her in its clutches, but she is breaking free slowly. But I know she is saved! Stan | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2005 |
Stan - I sure appreciate your point of view - each of us has seen a different side or view of SDAism. Some views are worse than others (as is true with many churches). I (like you) also disagree with many of the official views of the church. Recently I talked with several of the local pastors of SDA churches and we talked about imputed vs imparted righteousness - one of them said "Refresh my memory about this again - what is each one?" and other issues. They all agree that they had no problem with my beliefs. Don't you find that it is amazing that the pastors of the churches think the same as we do? Yet they do not realize the craziness just under the surface? I think that MANY people are in the church because they were born there and they believe what they believe - not what the church teaches necessarily. Now - if it was EASY to think for yourself and leave what all your friends think and do, don't you think that we would have more MUSLIM conversions to Christianity than we have? Huh? So it is not just SDA's that are "comfortable" with their lifestyle it happens in all walks of life - until you are confronted with something totally illogical it is amazing how we can all put on our blinders. (We can make fun of the "spectacles" that are required in other religions but cannot see the "faith" required in our own <grin>.) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2002 |
I like what Lisa said, that I believe many are truly saved but not yet free. It reminds me of a text I read in Psalms somewhere that says, "The Lord does not despise His captive children." I've had a long journey in coming to love my Adventist family, and even after I've left, to not look down on them or despise them. At times it's been so frustrating. But the Lord loves them, just like He loves me. He doesn't love me any more or less because I know the truth or don't know the truth. He died for me --and them-- all the same. Isn't He great? So He's calling me to love them just like He loves me. I read somewhere of a lady who befriended a Hindu or Muslim and loved them. She said, "My friendship isn't based on an eventual result." And I realized that to love my Adventist family (I'm coming to see all the people in the church I was born into as "my family"), I need to love them even if they don't "convert". I want to do all I can to help them find rest in Jesus, but He knows they need it much more than I do, and He's called me to love them like He loved me. Yaay! Recently I've been having email conversations with my father about Scripture & Adventist stuff. It was really theraputic to read this thread here because I know I'm not alone now in being looked at as if I'm a newcomer who has "misinterpreted" Adventism! My father seems to have quickly forgotten that I grew up in Adventism, studied it, obeyed it, even became a *missionary* for it, and then even studied at LSU to become a pastor at LSU before I chose to drop out. While reading the above posts, I thought about the reasons Adventists may look at us (FAs) as if we don't know anything about SDAism, or the reasons that make them quickly forget we have indeed often grown up in SDAism, thoroughly studied it, taught it, etc. The Scriptural reason would be the "veil" of 2 Corinthians 3, and a convenient packaged term for it might be "cultic mindset", but here's what I came up with: As Adventists, we really believed that we had The Truth (tm), and if someone was presented with the truth, then mathematically they should accept it. Further, if someone was *raised* in the truth, they wouldn't leave unless they had a death-wish. If we (FAs) have left SDAism, then it is because (in their minds) something went wrong in our education, or we didn't really hear something. That's why SDAs will tell us a lot of stuff that we actually already know to death. The breakdown in the mathematics of it doesn't compute, it doesn't register to them, so they fall back to the equation & repeating SDA truth. Sorry, that didn't come out as clearly as when I felt it. Oh well. Here's another interesting phenomenon: have you ever suggested to a not-so-zealous SDA something about the problem with SDA truth and then found that it spurs them into vigorous defense of SDA? Sometimes it can even trigger an individual SDA revival in that person. Isn't that weird? But sometimes when you challenge something, it strikes something inside the person and they rush with new energy to defend it. In a way it's like if a country is attacked by another country, people who weren't so patriotic suddenly become very patriotic. Anyway, food for thought. Blessings in Him! | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2006  |
Agapetos, It's kind of like when I was a kid: I didn't like my little brother much, and considered him nothing but a pain, but if some other kid at school started picking on him---look out!!! I would immediately come to his rescue. I guess we have a tendency to defend whatever we consider "our own", even if it really isn't making us very happy. I know once in a while I even find myself getting a little defensive when I hear someone really bashing the Adventists and I start thinking, "Okay, they really aren't all that bad...." And then I wonder, "Now, where did THAT come from???" I think the human bonds are just so complicated, especially those we grew up with---it makes it pretty much impossible to take a neutral position where our families and extended families(i.e. the Church) we grew up with are concerned. I find that for me, as I become stronger in my own beliefs and my own life, a life that I've finally felt free to choose for myself, the fears and bad feelings that I've harbored toward the Adventist church for so many years are gradually lessening. And, while I still don't agree with them, I'm beginning to feel more understanding, at least. Joyce | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1603 Registered: 3-2005 |
Joyce, I also agree with you, that as time goes on, and you become more firm in your own beliefs, that a lot of the bitter feelings toward Adventism seem to go away. I don't know how to explain this. But something recently happened when i was before God, in prayer, and it was like a heavy burden lifted off of me, that I don't have to have those bitter feelings anymore towards Adventism. I had largely gotten rid of them while I was backslidden, but, these same feelings of anger and bitterness started coming back, when I realized how terrible it was that the SDA leaders deceptively held this cultic structure together by manipulating Ellen White to have visions at will to suit whatever they wanted to teach. I did believe for sure that SDA was a cult equal to JW, LDS, and Mormonism. But recently, I was convicted that I was wrong to think of Adventism this way. I remember when I was in my real hostile breakaway period from Adventism. I would come up to Walter Martin every week, and tell him Adventism is a cult. I would bring him article after article trying to prove my point. He would just listen, and say," I understand how you feel. I need more evidence from an objective apologetics point of view." But, recently, suddenly all this real bitterness that I was still harboring has just suddenly lifted. This is all by the grace of God. I now realize that Walter Martin was far better trained in the cults than I was. And he was my pastor and authority for several years. Even though I thought he was wrong about Adventism, I, at the time felt I had to respect his authority. Recently, there have been many other affirming examples of why I now no longer believe Adventism is a cult in the same way that JW is. Several Pastors, even former SDA pastors, have also told me that it is simply not credible to label Adventism as a cult. They all say that SDA is far different from JW, LDS, and Christian Science. Recently, my wife and I have found a conservative Presbyterian church, that preaches the Reformation gospel with power. There is this peace God has given me that I have come full circle with Adventism. It is still a false church--just like RCC, it still preaches a false message of works-righteousness, I still want to help get as many people out of SDA as possible, and I actively work toward that goal. But, somehow the bitterness is gone---it's great!! Stan | ||
| Artman29 Registered user Username: Artman29 Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2006 |
I still think SDA is a cult because of EGW. Her teachings ruined my life for 23 years and put fear deep inside of my parents which they in tern trasfured to me. In my opinion there is no question that they are a cult. There are good christian people in the SDA church but they are scared in one degree or another. God does not motivate us by fear. Very Legalistic. I used to be one of them. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2005  |
Excellent remark about adventists "they are scared in one degree or another" WOW! This is the core of cultic mentality, submission in one degree or another to the leader of the group, based on FEAR. Fear to go against him, or her, fear of believing and thinking independently of his/her thinking. No matter how evangelical may be someone, he is bound by chains of fear to the leader of the group, in our case, Ellen White. I have a friend who was the single adventist friend who had not judged me because I renounced the sabbath, but he is afraid of sunday law. He is afraid to renounce the sabbath keeping, because Ellen White predicted that the sabbath will be a test. He said that he will do the same like me, that sabbath is not a moral law, and he is in agreement with me, but because of the prophetic scenario, he cannot renounce the sabbath. He is tied by this deep fear to SDA church and it's prophetic leader. Stan said
Walter Martin had just insulted all formers, not just Stan. No matter how much proof a former adventist will present to him, he needed and "objective" not subjective point of view. From start the witness of a former adventist is discredited because, after Walter Martin, he cannot be objective. The same thing said Kevin Paulson, "nobody leaves adventism for objective reasons, the formers are subjective, their personal traumas derranged their mental faculties" | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2503 Registered: 3-2004  |
The Adventist church has cult like beliefs, but they are mixed with Bible truth. I could never go back to it, but I am no longer hurt/angry over the SDA church, its doctrines or the leaders of this church. I have given them over to God and God will take care of them. Because of it's Biblical beliefs there are many lovers of Jesus Christ and I will consider them Christians. That is not something that can be found in the LDS or JW religions that I know of. I do think the SDA church is deceptive and dangerous because of its mix of truth with deception. I also think the person who truly wants to meet and know Jesus Christ will find Him, even in the SDA church. Look how many of you here on the forum found a relationship with Jesus while in the SDA church. God is calling his sheep and when they hear His voice they follow it. I love our Adventist brothers and sisters and pray for them, just as each of us does. My feelings toward them have mellowed, because God loves them, even in their error, just as He loved each of us. Diana | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2006 |
"...derranged their mental faculties" Hmmmm...sounds like my SDA family (except for my mother, who believed in Christ (et all) alone, after Desmond Ford's Roman's tape series; although, she is still a rebel Adventist). Something mentally or emotionally wrong with me and my FA sister and "our walk with God" (and other Former SDA's), not SDA theology. To me, if anyone was 'deranged mentally', it was young Ellen, after her head trauma at the beginning of it all. Then she only got worse, among those influencing her with their various pet theologies and goals, surrounding her, beginning with her husband. They and her own pride created a monster and a Monolith. That it has survived for so long, the ugliness, untruths and vitriol we receive from SDA's at times, and that it keeps so many blinded in bondage, makes me completely believe that it began in and is a spiritual matter and battle of Darkness. Label it whatever we will, the bottom line is Spiritual...confusion, fear and chaos vs. Christ and all that he is. Happily, peacefully 'deranged' (a fool) for Christ, Cathy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3860 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, you stated your position very well. I realize that people who are still Adventist believe I am bitter (at least I hear that declaration often!), but I am not. I literally thank God that I was raised Adventist. I believe that what I learned and what I experienced as an Adventist has made my understanding and appreciation of the gospel and the new covenant and the Bible so much more acute and miraculous. I do not feel any anger or rancor toward my Adventist heritage or my Adventist experience. God has redeemed that past in a present that I never could have imagined. I cannot be bitter at what He used to bring me to Himself in this way. Not being bitter does not mean I take a soft view of it. In fact, the less bitter I have become, the more clear the evil core has become. Because it no longer defines me in any way, I have become increasingly able to examine it and to expose it to Scripture. Defensiveness like Kevin Paulson's is like a beacon announcing he has no acceptable argument against the Scriptural reasons for FA's "defection". People who are confident and completely secure in their beliefs do not need to resort to accusing others of "anger" or "bitterness" or "hurt feelings". If they were truly confident, they could address the Biblical issues we raise without the emotional "smoke screen". One of the hardest things for me AFTER I left the church was admitting I had been deceived and had belonged to a cult. I felt foolish, stupid, sub-standard--and I didn't want to "go there". I've gradually come to realize, though, that everyone is deceived before they know Jesus. We are born in abysmal deception and evil. It's not surprising many of us become enslaved by cults, either as converts or as "born-into's". The facts are clear: Ellen was a false prophet. If one spends the time to research her little-known statements about herself, her handsome guide, her self-portective assertions and warnings about dismissing her writings, her anti-Biblical teachings and "I was shown's", one cannot come up with any other conclusion. In fact, while at the beginning James clearly used her to establish his own theological biases, as time went on, she gathered her own strength. After James died, she continued having dreams. While her visions characterized her early "work", after mid-life she ceased having visions and commenced having dreams guided by the same handsome young man. Many of her most damaging testimonies against specific people happened later rather than earlier in life. While her early life was filled with changing visions and truly odd sightings, her later dreams and writingsóaside from her theological statementsówere self-serving, protective of her royalty income and personal influence, and accusing of any who dared to disagree with her writings, such as Ballanger. Because of her, every Adventist doctrine is tainted more or less. As far as Walter Martin wanting more objective evidence, he re-opened his investigation of Adventism before he died. The fact is, the objective evidence is there, but because of the incredible effectiveness of the church's public relations work, the truth is almost impossible to find if one doesn't dig. If one IS an Adventist, the spritual bondage of the religion will own them even if they can't identify it. The fear associated with "giving up" Sabbath is deep and profound. It requires research and a willingness to read to discover the reality of what we were in. The effects of it are clear in our fears, thoughts, visceral reactions, and confusion. The actual facts are thereóbut one must dig. Once we find the facts, our feelings begin to make more and more sense. We really have a mission to each other to support one another as we face the truth about what we have been. We also have a mission to Christianity to expose the reality of this group. ThereóI'm stepping off my soapbox now! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1606 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, Where you are living in Romania, Adventism is very cultic. I probably am basing my views on my extensive experience in Calif. plus many other areas. You mention that Walter Martin insulted me as well as former SDAs. I had the wonderful privilege of knowing him, and he never was insulting. He taught me the basics of doing good apologetics. He was a great saint of God. There is some misunderstanding about Martin's position before he died. My dad and I heard Martin speak in an SDA church one month before he went to be with the Lord. There was no indication in that speech that he was changing his position, but he warned Adventists very firmly about making Ellen be the final authority over scripture. Robert Morey claimed he had lunch with Martin one week before death, and Martin supposedly told him that he was changing his position. That story cannot be substantiated. No one has been able to corroborate it. Morey has a track record of misinterpreting conversations, and some have questioned his credibility. It should be noted, that Ken Samples who wrote the forward to Dale Ratzlaff's book "Cultic Doctrine" worked directly with martin for CRI in those days, and apparently he knows nothing about this switch. In the forward to Dale's book, Samples clearly states that while the IJ is antithetical to the gospel, he does not classify SDA as a cult. Samples is a man of utmost integrity. He has researched Adventism thoroughly, and has talked to countless SDAs. Dale Ratzlaff's book did not call SDA a cult, and as far as I know, Dale stands by his position. One thing to remember in all this. I will admit that I haven't researched JW, Mormonism, and CS the way Martin did. I also haven't read as many EGW books as Walter Martin did. One thing I can vouch for in Martin, and that is integrity. He was one of the most highly regarded cult experts in his day. There is one issue I want to address here. I have been reading this forum very carefully for about 18 months, and posting for 13 months. I enjoy it here. So please don't take this wrong. But I am increasingly concerned about a spirit that exists that somehow very respected evangelical scholars, as well as very respected pastors, and Dale Ratzlaff, all seem to be wrong about Adventism as a cult. But, FAF has special insight, and the others are wrong. (I know that this will get me in trouble), but, really, this is worth discussing. Because, I know many former SDAs who have assimilated into evangelical churches, and they also acknowledge that while Adventism is a false gospel, it does not reach the level of LDS, CS, and JW. They understand the diversity in Adventism. The consensus of most of the evangelical world, Ratzlaff, Samples, and other anonymous pastors that I have communicated with is uniform about SDA not equalling LDS etc. But, on what basis do some on FAF feel that those of us,(former SDAs and ex-SDA pastors) who disagree with them somehow don't understand the true nature of Adventism. That attitude was conveyed very strongly on the "Cultic Similarities" thread. On what basis does FAF's consensus view call Adventism a cult? Well, I had better go run and hide after posting the above. (smiley face) Remember, we are united behind calling SDA a false gospel. Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2002 |
On the note of what is or isn't a "false church", I think it's appropriate to focus on Christ and the Gospel. The identity of the real "church" and "false church" is something that I believe we must leave to God, for only He can see who is really His and who is not. At times we will *know* that we are among the Church. At other times, we'll know that people are blinded or there is deception afoot. I would hesitate from calling anyone a real or false church. It's better perhaps to focus on the gospel. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2005 |
Why classify SDA as a cult? Because it keeps all people in spiritual bondage, including evangelical adventists. Evangelical adventists are the most efficient tool to keep people in adventism. Remember the role played by Clifford Goldstein and his book "Graffitti in the Holy of Holies" in the life of a former pastor who returned to the adventist church. The story was published in Review and Herald. He believe know that renouncing adventism was a mistake. He believe now in the Investigative Judgment, thanks to Goldstein. Goldstein is not a historic adventist, but an evangelical adventist. He wrote about the reformation justification alone position contrasting it with the romano-catholic position. He spoke favorably about grace alone, but after that, in his book he rephrased the IJ to sound in harmony with the gospel. By this trick he succesfully gained a guy who previously understood adventism as opposed to the gospel. This is why I believe adventism is still a unit: all adventists, evangelicals alike, pay hommage to Ellen White and her Great Controversy scenario. They rewrote IJ to sound evangelical, in this way trying to justify Ellen White, and her plagiarism, and many other things. If they really believe that IJ is an unbiblical doctrine, they will throw it away. They simply just rewrote it to fit at the first sight with the gospel. This is why I put the evangelical camp of adventism under the same cultic banner. Before 1900 adventism has one camp: historical adventists. But now, evangelical adventists trie so hard to give meaning to doctrines and beliefs of those who clearly were historic adventists. Evangelical adventists justify historical adventism. This put them in the same camp with those who believed that Ellen White is th final authority over the Bible. |
